Who is experiencing software or electrical gremlins?

[RavenVoice]

I assume that this sort of thing is going to get resolved. It might not - some vehicles and/or manufacturers are known for having electronic gremlins - but let's stay optimistic, and assume that Ineos will address these various issues.

But we also need to be clear: this is the antithesis of what the Grenadier was supposed to be about.

Like most of the early Grenadier enthusiasts, I was drawn to the idea of a new "old" 4x4. I was excited to buy a brand new 4x4 that was designed like all the old classic 4x4s (old Defender, 70-series Landcruiser, Jeep, etc.), but with some modern elements so that the vehicle would pass current safety and emissions requirements, and perhaps have some comforts that were lacking in the older 4x4s - but nothing that would interfere with the vehicle's ability to start, drive, and otherwise fully function.

What I am seeing instead, is a vehicle that embodies everything I despise about modern vehicles: a dependence on electronics that - when they malfunction - render the vehicle un-driveable.

I am genuinely curious, and would like to ask new owners of the Grenadier this question: do you currently feel comfortable taking your vehicle into a place like The Maze, the Canning Stock Route, or anywhere else that is remote, and poses numerous objective hazards to the people whose vehicle's leave them stranded? That was, after all, the raison d'être of the Grenadier.

In answer to your question: Yes, I’d feel totally comfortable taking my Grenadier anywhere (well, other than parking lots with height restrictions that is! ), this thing is built like a tank & drives like a dream.

It seems to me that there’s one single issue to be resolved & that’s that the threshold for the various sensors has been set too low & a software update is needed to rectify this. It does also seem that the more the vehicle is driven the less error messages appear so a certain amount of self-calibration must happen over time as the system starts to normalise itself. In my experience though, none of these error messages have affected the driving of the vehicle in any way (they’re just a minor annoyance & nothing more), the actual physical build puts every other car that I’ve seen in this category to shame so I can put up with some superficial temporary software niggles, delivery delays & the poor customer service of ‘agents’ if that’s the price of admission. All of that stuff fades away when you get behind the wheel & I think I’m going to have a big smile on my face every time I get in it to be honest.

 

[trobex]

I assume that this sort of thing is going to get resolved. It might not - some vehicles and/or manufacturers are known for having electronic gremlins - but let's stay optimistic, and assume that Ineos will address these various issues.

But we also need to be clear: this is the antithesis of what the Grenadier was supposed to be about.

Like most of the early Grenadier enthusiasts, I was drawn to the idea of a new "old" 4x4. I was excited to buy a brand new 4x4 that was designed like all the old classic 4x4s (old Defender, 70-series Landcruiser, Jeep, etc.), but with some modern elements so that the vehicle would pass current safety and emissions requirements, and perhaps have some comforts that were lacking in the older 4x4s - but nothing that would interfere with the vehicle's ability to start, drive, and otherwise fully function.

What I am seeing instead, is a vehicle that embodies everything I despise about modern vehicles: a dependence on electronics that - when they malfunction - render the vehicle un-driveable.

I am genuinely curious, and would like to ask new owners of the Grenadier this question: do you currently feel comfortable taking your vehicle into a place like The Maze, the Canning Stock Route, or anywhere else that is remote, and poses numerous objective hazards to the people whose vehicle's leave them stranded? That was, after all, the raison d'être of the Grenadier.

Way too many electrics in the new Gren - but that's the world we live in now.

 

[DCPU]

Meanwhile, at Ineos HQ:

 

[Cheshire cat]

@Logsplitter wrote about his experience in a post. Here is his story, its on page 12 of this thread: ---------------------------------------------------------------

Well I’ve just had a software gremlin! Just came back from a spin around the country lanes and pulled across a fairly narrow road to back into my driveway, stuck the front end of the Grenadier into the long vegetation on the bank , parking sensors going berserk! much as I tried it would not go into reverse or drive. The guy behind me in a truck patiently waiting as I happened to know him. Switched engine off 3 times and still couldn’t engage reverse or drive and completely blocking the road. Fourth time lucky start engine turn parking sensors off and into reverse it went and back up into the driveway.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I mis-remembered his story, and characterized it as a "shutdown" - my bad. If you prefer, we can refer to it as a "failure to move".

I was aware of Logsplitters misfortune but as you later said, it wasn’t actually a shutdown albeit, it was something we could do without.

 

[Logsplitter]

Would be interesting to do a proper analysis of this. I have a Jaguar with the same transmission and similar shifter. I have to say I have on ocassion experienced similar. I am pretty sure it has mostly been me not properly holding in the shift button and giving the positive movement in the right synch. Being in a stressful situation with a truck behind you doesn’t help you sort it out calmly (ask me how I know) add to that the sensors going off (probably correctly as he had nose in grass I believe) doesn’t help. I could be wrong but I suspect this may not have been a software issue. The one criticism I have of this otherwise excellent ZF transmission is that shifter. I suspect other Jag/BMW owners may have experienced similar at times. Combination of poor design (not INEOS in this case) contributing to user error compounded by stressful situation.

Could be totally wrong and possible that a wierd interaction between parking sensors and transmission software was the cause but hard to see how, although anything is possible in Canbus systems, Discoveries famously went into limp if you had a blown incandescent bulb in a taillight (again, ask me how I know)

Maybe there was some human error involved in my situation as I was getting flustered at the time. I’ve since had another situation i Could not engage drive with error message flashing that transfer box was in neutral. I put the main gear shifter In to neutral then pulled transfer box back into low range then a forcful shove forward into high range. This did the trick and car went into drive and no more intermittent messages about transfer box in neutral. Having driven 70 + miles with this error message showing intermittently I suspect a combination of me not pushing transfer box lever hard enough as it is very stiff and an over sensitive sensor. Driving around since then I have not had a single error message.
I would like to make it clear though that i think this is a fantastic well made vehicle and I love driving it. It will take a bit more getting used to for me as it still way more complex than any other previous vehicle I’ve owned and the first automatic I’ve owned. I do find it strange that all error messages have disappeared, maybe just a coincidence that I reported all messages to Ineos dealer as requested?

 

[Tazzieman]

then a forcful shove forward into high range.

Hoe the boot in. A good analog fix. Remember when we used to thump the TV if it went wonky?

 

[Cheshire cat]

Although not a show stopper, I had a strange anomaly regarding my Grenadier this morning.
On starting the vehicle I had the usual warnings plus a 'bong' that continued even after turning off the PDC. Could have been a seat belt malfunction however. On driving around 10 miles, stopping for a few mins to collect some goods. On entering the vehicle and starting up, I had a high pitched noise within the cab that wouldn't stop. Sounded like it might be speaker feedback, so turned off everything but unable to stop the noise. Started driving home high pitched noise still going. Stopped, exited the car and locked it. I could still hear the noise plus the engine fan working really hard. Left the vehicle and went for a coffee. On my return, drove home with no issues. Anyone else had similar?

 

[Shopkeep]

Although not a show stopper, I had a strange anomaly regarding my Grenadier this morning.
On starting the vehicle I had the usual warnings plus a 'bong' that continued even after turning off the PDC. Could have been a seat belt malfunction however. On driving around 10 miles, stopping for a few mins to collect some goods. On entering the vehicle and starting up, I had a high pitched noise within the cab that wouldn't stop. Sounded like it might be speaker feedback, so turned off everything but unable to stop the noise. Started driving home high pitched noise still going. Stopped, exited the car and locked it. I could still hear the noise plus the engine fan working really hard. Left the vehicle and went for a coffee. On my return, drove home with no issues. Anyone else had similar?

You have the patience of Job, I reckon that is a show stopper.

Ineos will need to be careful when launching in Australia, if they deliver cars with this level of faults they will be at risk of having to provide full refunds for those so inclined. These minor (or major?) faults do not appear to be fixable in a reasonable amount of time (just when is that mythical software update coming???).

 

[Guru]

To put things in perspective…… and I am like most others on this forum VERY disappointed that a brand new product has so many errors.

I am a recently retired Boeing 777 Capt (started new business electrifying Defenders) but in my 43 year aviation career starting as an apprentice engineer specialising in Avionics EVERY Boeing since the early 80’s 757 onwards (YES BUILT IN GOOD OL USA) has had major electronic glitches which more often than not resulted in having to literally switch the whole bloody thing off, going for a cuppa tea then restarting it again……. Even done it with 300 passengers onboard and off we go.
The 787 is awesome but look at the years delay for software and particularly the lithium main battery.
As far as I know NO resultant horrors occurred from these over sensitive sensors and software errors.

[MASSIVE caveat the 737 MAX disasters occurred because Boeing were so cheap to have only one angle of attack sensor which when erroneous didn’t have another to compare to and resulted in 100,s of deaths.]

So yes I agree it’s enormously annoying/vexing/disappointing to have “amber” errors but guys keep it in perspective.

p.s. Airbus and other manufacturers have similar issues.

 

[Guru]

Maybe there was some human error involved in my situation as I was getting flustered at the time. I’ve since had another situation i Could not engage drive with error message flashing that transfer box was in neutral. I put the main gear shifter In to neutral then pulled transfer box back into low range then a forcful shove forward into high range. This did the trick and car went into drive and no more intermittent messages about transfer box in neutral. Having driven 70 + miles with this error message showing intermittently I suspect a combination of me not pushing transfer box lever hard enough as it is very stiff and an over sensitive sensor. Driving around since then I have not had a single error message.
I would like to make it clear though that i think this is a fantastic well made vehicle and I love driving it. It will take a bit more getting used to for me as it still way more complex than any other previous vehicle I’ve owned and the first automatic I’ve owned. I do find it strange that all error messages have disappeared, maybe just a coincidence that I reported all messages to Ineos dealer as requested?

Had a friend with a beautiful Series 3. Called me in a total panic. Had been up all night researching why he had no drive and researched the cost of new gearbox/transfer case etc.
I got in pushed the hi/low lever forward and “voila” ( he’s French) fixed it and only charged him $1,000.

 

[Tazzieman]

As long as the Grenadier attack sensor works I'll be happy as a dog with 2 tails.

 

[Guru]

As long as the Grenadier attack sensor works I'll be happy as a dog with 2 tails.

Preferably not attack dogs…

 

[Ever Pragmatic]

Although not a show stopper, I had a strange anomaly regarding my Grenadier this morning.
On starting the vehicle I had the usual warnings plus a 'bong' that continued even after turning off the PDC. Could have been a seat belt malfunction however. On driving around 10 miles, stopping for a few mins to collect some goods. On entering the vehicle and starting up, I had a high pitched noise within the cab that wouldn't stop. Sounded like it might be speaker feedback, so turned off everything but unable to stop the noise. Started driving home high pitched noise still going. Stopped, exited the car and locked it. I could still hear the noise plus the engine fan working really hard. Left the vehicle and went for a coffee. On my return, drove home with no issues. Anyone else had similar?

I have noticed the cooling fan working hard and it’s very loud.. That said,it does seem to moving a hell of a lot of air.. I’ve traced most of my bongs to the rear door sensors.. if you don’t close them perfectly, you get the odd bong but it’s almost too quick for the screen to repeat.

 

[Wayneos]

Although not a show stopper, I had a strange anomaly regarding my Grenadier this morning.
On starting the vehicle I had the usual warnings plus a 'bong' that continued even after turning off the PDC. Could have been a seat belt malfunction however. On driving around 10 miles, stopping for a few mins to collect some goods. On entering the vehicle and starting up, I had a high pitched noise within the cab that wouldn't stop. Sounded like it might be speaker feedback, so turned off everything but unable to stop the noise. Started driving home high pitched noise still going. Stopped, exited the car and locked it. I could still hear the noise plus the engine fan working really hard. Left the vehicle and went for a coffee. On my return, drove home with no issues. Anyone else had similar?

The first owners of the first Grenadiers are making history with every mile and laying the foundations of an entirely new culture!
I salute you pioneers, boldly going where no car owner has gone before!

 

[klarie]

To put things in perspective…… and I am like most others on this forum VERY disappointed that a brand new product has so many errors.

I am a recently retired Boeing 777 Capt (started new business electrifying Defenders) but in my 43 year aviation career starting as an apprentice engineer specialising in Avionics EVERY Boeing since the early 80’s 757 onwards (YES BUILT IN GOOD OL USA) has had major electronic glitches which more often than not resulted in having to literally switch the whole bloody thing off, going for a cuppa tea then restarting it again……. Even done it with 300 passengers onboard and off we go.
The 787 is awesome but look at the years delay for software and particularly the lithium main battery.
As far as I know NO resultant horrors occurred from these over sensitive sensors and software errors.

[MASSIVE caveat the 737 MAX disasters occurred because Boeing were so cheap to have only one angle of attack sensor which when erroneous didn’t have another to compare to and resulted in 100,s of deaths.]

So yes I agree it’s enormously annoying/vexing/disappointing to have “amber” errors but guys keep it in perspective.

p.s. Airbus and other manufacturers have similar issues.

A friend of mine is a now a bit longer retired 747 captain from Lufthansa. Seems deep relaxed at any time, never met a guy who is like so. He teached me, - no matter what, Facts, Options, Decision.
There are people who re panicing in the midst of nothing.
Hardware is in most modern equipment (All of land including rail, sea and airworthy transportation rarely an issue anymore)
In most cases its software that are the issues.
The 737 Max is a special case - it is indeed rather a design flaw due to cost, and reminds me to Volkswagen Diesel - the engineering team was either intentionally collaborating or simply too cowardly to tell the management this does not work out as intened.

Airbus did on of the first commercial fly by wire and I still remember this crash in a demonstration flight in the early days.
This is rather "experimental" .. At Grenadier.. I think there is some combination topics. But all of the sw topics are rather mild. - I am pretty certain, - they re are on this.. but fixing this is not an easy task, changing here may result in other side effects.. and produce again strange results.- So getting this done will take its time.
E.h. I am glad I will not have a front radar anymore.
The front collision sensor / distance sensor on Disco Sport switches off itself from time to time and in snowy conditions and hefty rain its rather useless. So the natural human sensors are the only ones to be relied on.

 

[3DDiY]

Must be tempting to buy another Tacoma? I watch Savagegeese on YouTube and they have reviewed the new Tacoma. Quality product.

Anyone see the new 2024 Tacoma. A complete revamp looks awesome. Also to continue the conversation. It’s impossible these days to have an engine or modern safety that doesn’t have electronics. So there has to be some acceptance of modernization. Hopefully the electrical will be sorted. Was it rushed probably. Will the parts be on the claimed 24 hour delivery around the world. Probably not any time soon. My guess is in a few years and when there aren’t any supply issues. How are they going to have spare parts on everything when they need them to make it. Every manufacturer is having some kind of supply issue.

 

[bemax]

In my car there’s a lot of warnings as well. Some ho away within seconds others stay till the the next start. As long as they alternate it is ok for me.
Two things we should have in mind though.
- we can probably get our money back if we would insist that those yellow and red warnings are not acceptable (which they are not if we are honest)
- we all stand a certain risk that there will be a real warning which could bring us into real trouble if we do not react. It can also damage or destroy parts of the car (low liquids for example)

We definitely should not take this large number of warning messages to easy! It seems so funny to just ignore them (as I do myself) but it not really responsible!

 

[@nd]

The gremlins have struck again , the intermittent airbag fault is now permanent and to go with the back door sensor not registering as closed the rear windscreen wipers/washer have stopped working.
After changing the wheels i had a TPS fault but that has gone now.

 

[AnD3rew]

Are people taking these cars to agents and having the codes read? Has anyone tried using an OBD2 reader themselves and seeing what they say?

 

[marko]

After keenly following the development of the Grenadier from its inception, I started drifting away as I saw more and more choices being made by the Ineos team that didn't align with my expectations of a "modern old-school 4x4". And yes, I recognize that these were my expectations, but in part, they derive from the initial language in promotional material put out by Ineos. After driving the vehicle off-road, one of my main concerns was confirmed - I find the gear selector to be too "techy" or "electronic" for a true 4x4, and its lack of positive feedback and lack of actual movement is a potential hazard when off-roading.

In short, I haven't been following things here lately, so I don't mean any offense, but is this really where things are at? Celebrating a drive from point A to point B without an error code or warning?

Nope, my post was simply a statement of fact in order to help others. I was not celebrating a drive from point A to B. The message was that in my case at least the error messages have reduced over time. I’m not bothered by them in the slightest but I realise others who are waiting for theirs to be delivered may be. The car is fine and suits my needs perfectly with or without the odd initial error message. Hope that helps.