Who is experiencing software or electrical gremlins?

[Orcmurd]

I struggle to believe that this was written by an adult.

As a vehicle designed and made to pass compliance in a developed country, a hefty amount of electronics are compulsory and as the level of standardisation is not that great, systems from different vendors have to be made to work together.

Next paragraph: fanboy or not, my vehicle does not need a trip to the shop. The 5 year warranty takes much of the doubt and uncertainty away, but I am used to fixing dodgy vehicles anyway, so the lack of a workshop manual is more of a worry to me.

Last paragraph: Rovers do not have a good reputation for "right first time"; their last CEO was appalled at the warranty costs and the J D Power surveys suggest that design gets them sold and tech gets them rejected. Of the 10 people I know with new Defenders, half are delighted, the remaining 5 have faults varying from the trivial, (Pivi Pro keeps rebooting, radio inaudible, etc), to catastrophic mechanical failure, so 5 ecstatic, 4 slightly pissed off and 1 in the process of rejecting the vehicle and suing for damages. (Remembering that anecdote is not data).

As for the comments about MOTs; I was a tester in the early '80s, I try to keep up and I have mates/clients actively engaged. The transient amber warnings would not lead to a fail, the red warnings and a persistent fault light might be an issue, but would have to concern emissions, brakes, steering, airbag, ABS or ETC warnings. The vast majority of warnings are almost certainly sensors giving out of normal parameter readings; typically, these would be filtered out on startup and buffered under running conditions, so there would have to be some persistence before they were reported. There is such a thing as over-sensitivity.

If they struggle to build and deliver vehicles on time and without issues, I am concerned about their ability to have available parts or knowledge to fix a complex issue. It wouldn’t surprise me if some owners find their Grenadier sitting in a dealers for several months awaiting parts or software fix.

 

[Cheshire cat]

If they struggle to build and deliver vehicles on time and without issues, I am concerned about their ability to have available parts or knowledge to fix a complex issue. It wouldn’t surprise me if some owners find their Grenadier sitting in a dealers for several months awaiting parts or software fix.

Which is exactly the same situation as my Range Rover owning friend finds himself in. Been told it will take at least three months for parts to come through. And he lives in the UK.

 

[Bruce]

Tesla and Rivian are still having their share of teething problems. There's been a mobile Tesla repair man out for my neighbor a few times. If Ineos can arrange mobile service to come out and apply minor fixes and software updates like those startups do I would be thrilled.

 

[stickshifter]

Well I’ve just had a software gremlin! Just came back from a spin around the country lanes and pulled across a fairly narrow road to back into my driveway, stuck the front end of the Grenadier into the long vegetation on the bank , parking sensors going berserk! much as I tried it would not go into reverse or drive. The guy behind me in a truck patiently waiting as I happened to know him. Switched engine off 3 times and still couldn’t engage reverse or drive and completely blocking the road. Fourth time lucky start engine turn parking sensors off and into reverse it went and back up into the driveway.

I assume that this sort of thing is going to get resolved. It might not - some vehicles and/or manufacturers are known for having electronic gremlins - but let's stay optimistic, and assume that Ineos will address these various issues.

But we also need to be clear: this is the antithesis of what the Grenadier was supposed to be about.

Like most of the early Grenadier enthusiasts, I was drawn to the idea of a new "old" 4x4. I was excited to buy a brand new 4x4 that was designed like all the old classic 4x4s (old Defender, 70-series Landcruiser, Jeep, etc.), but with some modern elements so that the vehicle would pass current safety and emissions requirements, and perhaps have some comforts that were lacking in the older 4x4s - but nothing that would interfere with the vehicle's ability to start, drive, and otherwise fully function.

What I am seeing instead, is a vehicle that embodies everything I despise about modern vehicles: a dependence on electronics that - when they malfunction - render the vehicle un-driveable.

I am genuinely curious, and would like to ask new owners of the Grenadier this question: do you currently feel comfortable taking your vehicle into a place like The Maze, the Canning Stock Route, or anywhere else that is remote, and poses numerous objective hazards to the people whose vehicle's leave them stranded? That was, after all, the raison d'être of the Grenadier.

 

[Cheshire cat]

I assume that this sort of thing is going to get resolved. It might not - some vehicles and/or manufacturers are known for having electronic gremlins - but let's stay optimistic, and assume that Ineos will address these various issues.

But we also need to be clear: this is the antithesis of what the Grenadier was supposed to be about.

Like most of the early Grenadier enthusiasts, I was drawn to the idea of a new "old" 4x4. In other words, I was excited to buy a brand new 4x4 that was designed like all the old classic 4x4s (old Defender, 70-series Landcruiser, Jeep, etc.), but with some modern elements so that the vehicle would pass current safety and emissions requirements, and perhaps have some comforts that were lacking in the older 4x4s - but nothing that would interfere with the vehicle's ability to start, drive, and otherwise fully function.

What I am seeing instead, is a vehicle that embodies everything I despise about modern vehicles: a dependence on electronics that - when they malfunction - render the vehicle un-driveable.

I am genuinely curious, and would like to ask new owners of the Grenadier this question: do you currently feel comfortable taking your vehicle into a place like The Maze, the Canning Stock Route, or anywhere else that is remote, and poses numerous objective hazards to the people whose vehicle's leave them stranded? That was. after all, the raison d'être of the Grenadier.

I would say it is far too early to make that call. The real proving stage is always in the hands of the customer. I say. Give it six months and see where we are then.

 

[stickshifter]

I would say it is far too early to make that call. The real proving stage is always in the hands of the customer. I say. Give it six months and see where we are then.

To me - that is a fail.

I have a 2017 Tacoma. It is by no means a "great" vehicle - I could list for you its various shortcomings - but within weeks of the purchase, I confidently took it on a week trip into the back-country of Utah. The trail was technically quite easy - we were using the trail to see how the truck ran, and to access biking, hiking, and climbing. The truck handled the heat and terrain with no problem, and so, after this shake-down trip, we promptly set out on another week-long trip into The Maze for remote camping and hiking. Here, the technical challenges were far more significant, and distances from the trailhead required carrying extra fuel, and lots of water. Again, not a single problem with the vehicle.

After six years, the truck has never failed to start, has never shut-down for any reason, and has never thrown a code. If the truck thinks an oil change is due, a light comes on - but that does not affect its ability to function in any way. MSRP for the truck in 2017 was around $32,000 (which today is around $39,000).

Photo from that first shake-down trip in Week 3 of ownership:

 

[Trialmaster]

To me - that is a fail.

I have a 2017 Tacoma. It is by no means a "great" vehicle - I could list for you its various shortcomings - but within weeks of the purchase, I confidently took it on a week trip into the back-country of Utah. The trail was technically quite easy - we were using the trail to see how the truck ran, and to access biking, hiking, and climbing. The truck handled the heat and terrain with no problem, and so, after this shake-down trip, we promptly set out on another week-long trip into The Maze for remote camping and hiking. Here, the technical challenges were far more significant, and distances from the trailhead required carrying extra fuel, and lots of water. Again, not a single problem with the vehicle.

After six years, the truck has never failed to start, has never shut-down for any reason, and has never thrown a code. If the truck thinks an oil change is due, a light comes on - but that does not affect its ability to function in any way. MSRP for the truck in 2017 was around $32,000 (which today is around $39,000).

Must be tempting to buy another Tacoma? I watch Savagegeese on YouTube and they have reviewed the new Tacoma. Quality product.

 

[Jeremy996]

But we also need to be clear: this is the antithesis of what the Grenadier was supposed to be about.

Like most of the early Grenadier enthusiasts, I was drawn to the idea of a new "old" 4x4. I was excited to buy a brand new 4x4 that was designed like all the old classic 4x4s (old Defender, 70-series Landcruiser, Jeep, etc.), but with some modern elements so that the vehicle would pass current safety and emissions requirements, and perhaps have some comforts that were lacking in the older 4x4s - but nothing that would interfere with the vehicle's ability to start, drive, and otherwise fully function.

What I am seeing instead, is a vehicle that embodies everything I despise about modern vehicles: a dependence on electronics that - when they malfunction - render the vehicle un-driveable.

I am genuinely curious, and would like to ask new owners of the Grenadier this question: do you currently feel comfortable taking your vehicle into a place like The Maze, the Canning Stock Route, or anywhere else that is remote, and poses numerous objective hazards to the people whose vehicle's leave them stranded? That was, after all, the raison d'être of the Grenadier.

Firstly, I knew being an early adopter was a risk; software glitches are endemic in motor vehicles, JLR and Stellantis being probably the most publicised.

Secondly; it is impossible to build an electronic tech-free new vehicle, emissions can only be controlled for the statutory period by electronics and meeting most consumption goals requires the engine and transmission to communicate, (and stop/start). Also mandatory in the EU are ABS, ESC, ETC, airbags, tyre pressure monitoring, and emergency call. Much later in the build trajectory, they may decide to build a ROW spec vehicle, (Rest of the World), but I doubt there is an economic case for it. This is probably where marketing crashes into compliance.

Now, I don't know if a minor fault in a sub-system will brick the vehicle, but I do know that running out of Ad-Blue will prevent a re-start as that is what is required by EU compliance. If that is a problem for you, then you will need to keep your Defender/300 Series/Trooper/whatever as Ineos as a modern manufacturer has no options.

Would I feel comfortable taking my month and several day old Grenadier down some gnarly Australian tracks? No, I am a novice driving in Australia, the last time I did was 1996 in a Holden Barina, which I crucified along the Great Ocean Road! Taking any unreliable vehicle into a live lane is a risk, (google "UK Smart Motorways"), but for ordinary roads and the rough tracks I regularly drive, I have no problems. Given time, an accessible workshop manual and some months to prepare, I'd think about the gnarly tracks. The faults I am seeing do not worry me; the lack of a workshop manual, a rather thin logistics chain and dealers who feel a little unsupported does worry me, but I do know of efforts to sort it out.

 

[Tazzieman]

Haha, foreigners on the wrong side of the road?

Yes, and middle aged + motorcyclists

 

[stickshifter]

Must be tempting to buy another Tacoma? I watch Savagegeese on YouTube and they have reviewed the new Tacoma. Quality product.

The new, 4th Gen Tacoma, addresses all my current complaints with the 3rd Gen Tacoma: stronger frame, better brakes, better power, much better torque (and likely to come in at very low rpms), and better seating position (although it is still unclear how much better). In addition, the Trailhunter comes with all the following, which I added to my 3rd Gen Tacoma in the aftermarket: really good suspension, good coverage skid plates, steel bumpers with recovery points, an air compressor, and a center console safe. Unfortunately, the 4th Gen Tacomas also come with a suite of safety software, that makes the truck vulnerable to electronic problems, and the shut-downs currently seen in the Grenadier. Otherwise, this would be a slam-dunk for me.

 

[rovie]

Firstly, I knew being an early adopter was a risk; software glitches are endemic in motor vehicles, JLR and Stellantis being probably the most publicised.

Secondly; it is impossible to build an electronic tech-free new vehicle, emissions can only be controlled for the statutory period by electronics and meeting most consumption goals requires the engine and transmission to communicate, (and stop/start). Also mandatory in the EU are ABS, ESC, ETC, airbags, tyre pressure monitoring, and emergency call. Much later in the build trajectory, they may decide to build a ROW spec vehicle, (Rest of the World), but I doubt there is an economic case for it. This is probably where marketing crashes into compliance.

Now, I don't know if a minor fault in a sub-system will brick the vehicle, but I do know that running out of Ad-Blue will prevent a re-start as that is what is required by EU compliance. If that is a problem for you, then you will need to keep your Defender/300 Series/Trooper/whatever as Ineos as a modern manufacturer has no options.

Would I feel comfortable taking my month and several day old Grenadier down some gnarly Australian tracks? No, I am a novice driving in Australia, the last time I did was 1996 in a Holden Barina, which I crucified along the Great Ocean Road! Taking any unreliable vehicle into a live lane is a risk, (google "UK Smart Motorways"), but for ordinary roads and the rough tracks I regularly drive, I have no problems. Given time, an accessible workshop manual and some months to prepare, I'd think about the gnarly tracks. The faults I am seeing do not worry me; the lack of a workshop manual, a rather thin logistics chain and dealers who feel a little unsupported does worry me, but I do know of efforts to sort it out.

@Jeremy996
I couldn't have summed it up better.
Some here nag about everything. I wonder why they chose such a vehicle then.
As a buyer, I have to expect things like this with new products. More importantly, I have to be able to deal with it. I can draw parallels to other products outside the car industry. It's no different there.

 

[JohnHeagney]

@Jeremy996
I couldn't have summed it up better.
Some here nag about everything. I wonder why they chose such a vehicle then.
As a buyer, I have to expect things like this with new products. More importantly, I have to be able to deal with it. I can draw parallels to other products outside the car industry. It's no different there.

I wholly agree, these are glitches in a new vehicle and certainly not show stoppers. IA will resolve them, I am delighted with my Fieldmaster and the odd glitch doesn‘t diminish my positive view of the marque one iota.

 

[Cheshire cat]

To me - that is a fail.

I have a 2017 Tacoma. It is by no means a "great" vehicle - I could list for you its various shortcomings - but within weeks of the purchase, I confidently took it on a week trip into the back-country of Utah. The trail was technically quite easy - we were using the trail to see how the truck ran, and to access biking, hiking, and climbing. The truck handled the heat and terrain with no problem, and so, after this shake-down trip, we promptly set out on another week-long trip into The Maze for remote camping and hiking. Here, the technical challenges were far more significant, and distances from the trailhead required carrying extra fuel, and lots of water. Again, not a single problem with the vehicle.

After six years, the truck has never failed to start, has never shut-down for any reason, and has never thrown a code. If the truck thinks an oil change is due, a light comes on - but that does not affect its ability to function in any way. MSRP for the truck in 2017 was around $32,000 (which today is around $39,000).

Photo from that first shake-down trip in Week 3 of ownership:

View attachment 7813433

That’s Toyota for you. If right now I had to put my life on a vehicle, it would be Toyota. If the Grenadier gets anywhere close I will be over the moon.

 

[Cheshire cat]

The new, 4th Gen Tacoma, addresses all my current complaints with the 3rd Gen Tacoma: stronger frame, better brakes, better power, much better torque (and likely to come in at very low rpms), and better seating position (although it is still unclear how much better). In addition, the Trailhunter comes with all the following, which I added to my truck in the aftermarket: really good suspension, good coverage skid plates, steel bumpers with recovery points, an air compressor, and a center console safe. Unfortunately, the 4th Gen Tacomas also come with a suite of safety software, that makes the truck vulnerable to electronic problems, and the shut-downs currently seen in the Grenadier. Otherwise, this would be a slam-dunk for me.

‘Shutdowns currently seen on the Grenadier’. What shutdowns are you referring to? I spend an unhealthy amount of time on this forum and not seen anything regarding shutdowns.

 

[Jeremy996]

‘Shutdowns currently seen on the Grenadier’. What shutdowns are you referring to? I spend an unhealthy amount of time on this forum and not seen anything regarding shutdowns.

No one, even on FaceBook has reported any shutdowns. (Yeah, I know, I'm sad enough to stalk there, and Pistonhead, Jalopnik etc)

I think one person has reported a fluffed start on here, but the condition did not persist. Someone else had TPMS chimes driving them to distraction, but that was corrected by reading the manual and a TPMS reset.

 

[AnD3rew]

‘Shutdowns currently seen on the Grenadier’. What shutdowns are you referring to? I spend an unhealthy amount of time on this forum and not seen anything regarding shutdowns.

This is actually an important point. I think it’s clear that the Grenadier was released to the world a software generation or two before it was full ready for the world, unfortunate sure but they were under a lot of pressure after many delays mostly not of their making. Was this a risk as an early adopter, absolutely yes. I knew that and anyone with a brain knew that, my head said wait a model year and buy the next one but my inner child won, but I knew the risk was there. But there is an important point that Cheshire cat makes, had this been a Land Rover these gremlins would almost certainly have put the vehicle in limp mode and left owners all over the place high and dry. From what I can see mostly people just keep driving and the gremlins start to sort themselves out. If people are wanting to throw their toys out of the pram they are probably people who shouldn’t have been ealry adopters of a new vehicle from a new manufacturer.

Mine is about to be on a boat and on it’s way to me, of course it would be nice if by the time it gets to me all this stuff is sorted out, but I have seen nothing so far that makes me wonder if I have made a mistake. I won’t be taking it across the Simpson desert yet, but I always planned to give it a year or two’s shakedown first specially because it is a first vehicle from a first time manufacturer. We knew what we were getting ourselves into, or at least we should have.

 

[stickshifter]

‘Shutdowns currently seen on the Grenadier’. What shutdowns are you referring to? I spend an unhealthy amount of time on this forum and not seen anything regarding shutdowns.

@Logsplitter wrote about his experience in a post. Here is his story, its on page 12 of this thread: ---------------------------------------------------------------

Well I’ve just had a software gremlin! Just came back from a spin around the country lanes and pulled across a fairly narrow road to back into my driveway, stuck the front end of the Grenadier into the long vegetation on the bank , parking sensors going berserk! much as I tried it would not go into reverse or drive. The guy behind me in a truck patiently waiting as I happened to know him. Switched engine off 3 times and still couldn’t engage reverse or drive and completely blocking the road. Fourth time lucky start engine turn parking sensors off and into reverse it went and back up into the driveway.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I mis-remembered his story, and characterized it as a "shutdown" - my bad. If you prefer, we can refer to it as a "failure to move".

 

[AnD3rew]

@Logsplitter wrote about his experience in a post. Here is his story, its on page 12 of this thread: ---------------------------------------------------------------

Well I’ve just had a software gremlin! Just came back from a spin around the country lanes and pulled across a fairly narrow road to back into my driveway, stuck the front end of the Grenadier into the long vegetation on the bank , parking sensors going berserk! much as I tried it would not go into reverse or drive. The guy behind me in a truck patiently waiting as I happened to know him. Switched engine off 3 times and still couldn’t engage reverse or drive and completely blocking the road. Fourth time lucky start engine turn parking sensors off and into reverse it went and back up into the driveway.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I characterized this as a "shutdown" - my bad. If you prefer, we can refer to it as a "failure to move".

Would be interesting to do a proper analysis of this. I have a Jaguar with the same transmission and similar shifter. I have to say I have on ocassion experienced similar. I am pretty sure it has mostly been me not properly holding in the shift button and giving the positive movement in the right synch. Being in a stressful situation with a truck behind you doesn’t help you sort it out calmly (ask me how I know) add to that the sensors going off (probably correctly as he had nose in grass I believe) doesn’t help. I could be wrong but I suspect this may not have been a software issue. The one criticism I have of this otherwise excellent ZF transmission is that shifter. I suspect other Jag/BMW owners may have experienced similar at times. Combination of poor design (not INEOS in this case) contributing to user error compounded by stressful situation.

Could be totally wrong and possible that a wierd interaction between parking sensors and transmission software was the cause but hard to see how, although anything is possible in Canbus systems, Discoveries famously went into limp if you had a blown incandescent bulb in a taillight (again, ask me how I know)

 

[Solmanic]

Wow, it's crazy how the internet feeds hysteria. Just a reminder of the poll so we can see actual data on how bad these gremlins are. So far most vehicles (over 70%) have reported only minor issues not worth dealing with until the first service. So let's just settle down a bit. None have reported major issues rendering their vehicles unroadworthy. So the simple summary based on our own data is that most vehicles have very minor issues, but none are lemons.

BUT if there is anyone who has been having more concerning issues, please respond to the poll.

Poll - How is your new Grenadier really?

With deliveries underway and the many recent posts by people experiencing issues, it's rapidly giving an overwhelming impression that a lot of vehicles being delivered have problems. However this being the internet, I am hoping there are many others who have no issues they think are worth...

www.theineosforum.com

 

[DCPU]

Could be totally wrong and possible that a wierd interaction between parking sensors and transmission software was the cause but hard to see how, although anything is possible in Canbus systems,

Having driven nearly 56 miles with the screen flashing a message regularly that the gearbox was in neutral, it does seem that there's potential for such weird interactions.