Unacceptable build quality issues on delivery?

[Trialmaster]

I'm not sure I would recommend INEOS Automotive to a friend. I have now been without working Air Con for 3 months. I have annoying erroneous rear parking sensors when reversing and erroneous rear seatbelt warnings. And still no sign of my roof bars. I have had to make 4 trips to my agent to try and resolve the various issues and INEOS no longer answer my emails.

That is appalling - not answering emails. When you say INEOS you mean via the PORTAL? Surprised the Agent is not helping?

 

[DaveB]

Very true, there is always a second update shortly after!!

I have spent more time updating Adobe Acrobat than actually using it.

 

[Cheshire cat]

I'm not sure I would recommend INEOS Automotive to a friend. I have now been without working Air Con for 3 months. I have annoying erroneous rear parking sensors when reversing and erroneous rear seatbelt warnings. And still no sign of my roof bars. I have had to make 4 trips to my agent to try and resolve the various issues and INEOS no longer answer my emails.

I agree with you regarding recommendations but rather than focusing on the technical issues we are suffering to varying degree, I am thinking more about the fact this is a specialty type vehicle. Built not just for road, but for being tough off-road. This brings with it, compromises which a lot of people just wouldn’t get used to. Steering circle and fuel consumption are two things that come to mind.

 

[MattA]

Such a shame to see soooo many issues, all these faults will do massive damage to the company and sadly sales will plummet. Like myself most will be holding off on the purchase until the car proves it’s substantial cost, as it stands I will ever buy a IG , good luck to everyone who already has one, I hope they prove to be a great buy and I hope Ineos can lift their game or this will be a short lived venture
They had so much potential but it looks like it will be done and dusted within the first year of sales at this rate

 

[Tomdoc]

"Such a shame to see soooo many issues,"

I really like my IG, my cup is half full rather than half empty. I am fully confident that the software stuff is fixable soon.

In the meantime I am enjoying having it and really cannot buy into the negativity. I am not aware of quote "soooo many issues" and I have been on this forum daily for many months.

The new owners poll currently reflects this I think.

What are these terrible issues? - hundreds of thousands of Jeeps and Tesla vehicles are being recalled right now. My Defenders leaked vital fluids daily and my right elbow never was comfortable, the steering wheel was off-set, it leaked rain-water everywhere, but I loved each of them and would still be in one if LR made them anymore. I am glad Sir Jim thought in a similar vein.

 

[Cheshire cat]

"Such a shame to see soooo many issues,"

I really like my IG, my cup is half full rather than half empty. I am fully confident that the software stuff is fixable soon.

In the meantime I am enjoying having it and really cannot buy into the negativity. I am not aware of quote "soooo many issues" and I have been on this forum daily for many months.

The new owners poll currently reflects this I think.

What are these terrible issues? - hundreds of thousands of Jeeps and Tesla vehicles are being recalled right now. My Defenders leaked vital fluids daily and my right elbow never was comfortable, the steering wheel was off-set, it leaked rain-water everywhere, but I loved each of them and would still be in one if LR made them anymore. I am glad Sir Jim thought in a similar vein.

My sentiments exactly. Loving it, warts and all. There isn’t a car made which will be devoid of all problems.

 

[MattA]

Good to see owners are happy with their cars and able to put a positive spin on them
Sorry but for me a car with so many electrical problems, air conditioning problems, water leaks, power steering problems heater problems and transfer case problems it’s just to much to ignore
I really do hope it all gets sorted because I have no doubt at all that if these issues are resolved it will be the best 4wd available

 

[2wheelfish]

To me it’s not the issues with the truck so much as Ineos’ response to these issues. I figured a new mfr would have some initial QC issues to solve, but Ineos should know that too and have a troubleshooting team in place to get technical info out to agents ASAP. So far, have any of these problems been addressed in any meaningful way? I really only know what I hear in this forum, but I worry a bit about Ineos’ resources. At this point I’m just on the sidelines, and will be patient. That being said, I can’t say I’m one of those that wants an $85K project vehicle.

 

[emax]

As to the knob problem, @Jean Mercier (and maybe @rovie as well): Put some PTFE spray there. It should at least mitigate the problem. A small bottle lasts for years. You can find it easily (but I of course recommend to buy locally ...). There a many brands, but I usually go with Ballistol products.

PTFE-Spray zur hygienischen Trockenschmierung Teflon™-Spray

PTFE Spray (Teflon™-Spray) ist ein Gleitmittel und Schmiermittel zur hygienischen Trockenschmierung aller Werkstoffe und eine saubere Alternative zu Ölen und Fetten.

www.ballistol-shop.de

 

[emax]

As for the software update, I don't expect much. The false messages will probably disappear, but a car is an almost infinite state machine, so it's extremely difficult to develop regression tests.

Such tests are a standard in software testing and are used to detect errors in existing code that have been introduced or "awakened" by new code. If you do not test all the states that a device (and thus the firmware) can have, it is simply not possible to prove that the software is bug-free. So the tests are mainly limited to borderline cases - which still leaves a lot of room for bugs.

That is why software often ends up as bananaware: it matures at the customer's site.

We are the testers.


PS: This is a general problem, not just one of INEOS. But we have already seen that INEOS is a master of disaster.

 

[Cheshire cat]

To me it’s not the issues with the truck so much as Ineos’ response to these issues. I figured a new mfr would have some initial QC issues to solve, but Ineos should know that too and have a troubleshooting team in place to get technical info out to agents ASAP. So far, have any of these problems been addressed in any meaningful way? I really only know what I hear in this forum, but I worry a bit about Ineos’ resources. At this point I’m just on the sidelines, and will be patient. That being said, I can’t say I’m one of those that wants an $85K project vehicle.

Hi 2Wheelfish.
For yourself I think you have done the right thing. Anyone who wants the best is usually doing the right thing in waiting for the last series and then taking the plunge. For me, I feel very optimistic that the very few faults seen in this vehicle by the vast majority makes this a highly reliable vehicle. Of the several hundred owners on here I have only seen a handful with very annoying issues that really shouldn’t happen. Most of us have only had to deal with annoying warning lights which we know are to be ignored unless appearing in the panel behind the steering wheel. So far I am over the moon with my purchase and extremely glad I didn’t wait.

 

[Boston Boy]

As for the software update, I don't expect much. The false messages will probably disappear, but a car is an almost infinite state machine, so it's extremely difficult to develop regression tests.

Such tests are a standard in software testing and are used to detect errors in existing code that have been introduced or "awakened" by new code. If you do not test all the states that a device (and thus the firmware) can have, it is simply not possible to prove that the software is bug-free. So the tests are mainly limited to borderline cases - which still leaves a lot of room for bugs.

That is why software often ends up as bananaware: it matures at the customer's site.

We are the testers.


PS: This is a general problem, not just one of INEOS. But we have already seen that INEOS is a master of disaster.

it seems that the early buyers are self-funded lab rats

 

[Solmanic]

it seems that the early buyers are self-funded lab rats

I bought a 2007MY Defender and spent the better part of the first two years with that vehicle having leaks, power window and air con issues sorted out with my dealer. And I got off lightly with many other people I know having had diffs explode, engine knocking issues and more electrical gremlins than even the worst reports on this forum. Anyone who has had all their headlights go out at 110kmh on the highway in the middle of nowhere will know just how shockingly bad Defender electrics could be. This was not the experience you should be having in a tenth generation vehicle. I am fully prepared to do some collaborative troubleshooting with Ineos because I like what they have produced however, I honestly believe their FIRST generation model is better quality than Land Rovers final generation Defender.

 

[evomind]

Yep, this is Land Rover all over again.
Rather than demanding Ineos address whatever issues may be at hand, people say "its ok, I love the vehicle."
Why should they fix/address any issues then?
Ill probably still buy one, hopefully they will address some of these issues by then and Ill wait till the hype dies down, they stop making them because they cant sell them in numbers to keep an ongoing concern, then Ill sell for double what I paid like the with the H1 and the original Defender.
Those are worth far more now than they ever were new.
Everybody is a collector these days.

I think the Grenadier has a lot of niggling issues that are fixable but not a good sign that they basically disappear in regards to warranty.
Where is this phantom software update?
Water on the floorboards, etc.
As far as the States go this wont fly with buyers outside the die hards.
I would like to believe Ineos is hard at work working on fixes but I have my doubts.
Yes, all manufacturers have recalls but guess what?
That means they recognize an issue and intend to FIX it.

All the dealers and service centers in the world are useless if they cant get parts and or support.

In the meantime current owners should be DEMANDING these things get fixed.

Lucky for me I have 7 vehicles and wont have to rely on the Grenadier to get to work everyday as I work from home.

I kinda think this is par for the course for British vehicles, idk.

 

[DaveB]

Yep, this is Land Rover all over again.
Rather than demanding Ineos address whatever issues may be at hand, people say "its ok, I love the vehicle."
Why should they fix/address any issues then?
Ill probably still buy one, hopefully they will address some of these issues by then and Ill wait till the hype dies down, they stop making them because they cant sell them in numbers to keep an ongoing concern, then Ill sell for double what I paid like the with the H1 and the original Defender.
Those are worth far more now than they ever were new.
Everybody is a collector these days.

I think the Grenadier has a lot of niggling issues that are fixable but not a good sign that they basically disappear in regards to warranty.
Where is this phantom software update?
Water on the floorboards, etc.
As far as the States go this wont fly with buyers outside the die hards.
I would like to believe Ineos is hard at work working on fixes but I have my doubts.
Yes, all manufacturers have recalls but guess what?
That means they recognize an issue and intend to FIX it.

All the dealers and service centers in the world are useless if they cant get parts and or support.

In the meantime current owners should be DEMANDING these things get fixed.

Lucky for me I have 7 vehicles and wont have to rely on the Grenadier to get to work everyday as I work from home.

I kinda think this is par for the course for British vehicles, idk.

If you have purchased and paid for the vehicle, how can you demand something?
What are you going to do?
Throw yourself on the ground, stamp your feet, hold your breath?

 

[Solmanic]

Yep, this is Land Rover all over again.
Rather than demanding Ineos address whatever issues may be at hand, people say "its ok, I love the vehicle."
Why should they fix/address any issues then?
Ill probably still buy one, hopefully they will address some of these issues by then and Ill wait till the hype dies down, they stop making them because they cant sell them in numbers to keep an ongoing concern, then Ill sell for double what I paid like the with the H1 and the original Defender.
Those are worth far more now than they ever were new.
Everybody is a collector these days.

I think the Grenadier has a lot of niggling issues that are fixable but not a good sign that they basically disappear in regards to warranty.
Where is this phantom software update?
Water on the floorboards, etc.
As far as the States go this wont fly with buyers outside the die hards.
I would like to believe Ineos is hard at work working on fixes but I have my doubts.
Yes, all manufacturers have recalls but guess what?
That means they recognize an issue and intend to FIX it.

All the dealers and service centers in the world are useless if they cant get parts and or support.

In the meantime current owners should be DEMANDING these things get fixed.

Lucky for me I have 7 vehicles and wont have to rely on the Grenadier to get to work everyday as I work from home.

I kinda think this is par for the course for British vehicles, idk.

Agreed however there is no suggestion that anyone is going to simply smile and not press Ineos to rectify the issues. But I feel the need to remind everyone how absolutely hysterical we all were back in January/February when Ineos were holding off deliveries due to a software issue. People were raging at them to get deliveries started, and now here we are. Nearly all of the issues people are experiencing are software related. Now there are people on here raging at Ineos saying they should have waited until the software issues were sorted before starting deliveries. They simply could not win.

I'm still comfortable that they can and will get things sorted. But yes, of course, I will be holding them to their warranty obligations. Like most early adopters, I have bought in with eyes wide open to the possible pitfalls. I also won't have total reliability on my Grenadier thanks to having other options in my garage. I'm sure Ineos are well aware that they need to keep the first customers happy and sort out all the niggles because the second wave of customers will not be so forgiving.

AND the reviews from the first wave of customers will determine whether or not there is a second wave of customers.

I feel it necessary to also remind people that so far around 80% of deliveries in our poll report few or no issues:

Poll - How is your new Grenadier really?

With deliveries underway and the many recent posts by people experiencing issues, it's rapidly giving an overwhelming impression that a lot of vehicles being delivered have problems. However this being the internet, I am hoping there are many others who have no issues they think are worth...

www.theineosforum.com

 

[evomind]

If you have purchased and paid for the vehicle, how can you demand something?
What are you going to do?
Throw yourself on the ground, stamp your feet, hold your breath?

Well for starters I wouldn't say everything is ok....

 

[evomind]

Agreed however there is no suggestion that anyone is going to simply smile and not press Ineos to rectify the issues. But I feel the need to remind everyone how absolutely hysterical we all were back in January/February when Ineos were holding off deliveries due to a software issue. People were raging at them to get deliveries started, and now here we are. Nearly all of the issues people are experiencing are software related. Now there are people on here raging at Ineos saying they should have waited until the software issues were sorted before starting deliveries. They simply could not win.

I'm still comfortable that they can and will get things sorted. But yes, of course, I will be holding them to their warranty obligations. Like most early adopters, I have bought in with eyes wide open to the possible pitfalls. I also won't have total reliability on my Grenadier thanks to having other options in my garage. I'm sure Ineos are well aware that they need to keep the first customers happy and sort out all the niggles because the second wave of customers will not be so forgiving.

AND the reviews from the first wave of customers will determine whether or not there is a second wave of customers.

I am pretty sure they will sort things out as well.
The question is when.
I dont know if I see a sense of urgency to address whatever issues are at hand, no matter minor or major. Again, maybe a British thing as the English are a bit more laid back about things than Americans...I dont know.
What I dont understand is how current owners are told to deal with their sales center and then the sales center says they haven't really heard from Ineos in awhile.
I find the lack of support and communication from Ineos disturbing.
Moreso than the issues themself.

 

[DaveB]

Well for starters I wouldn't say everything is ok....

Yes but people are talking with them, communicating like grownups, accepting a new manufacturer with a new assembly plant and a new vehicle will have problems.
Demanding and threatening and cancelling, or threatening to is not the act of a grown adult.
Now Ok if the software update doesn't come through soon and fix a lot of these problems then that is another issue.
Unlike many other manufacturers Ineos at least held the original pricing for existing order holders as a form of compensation.
Many manufacturers, including Toyota, are saying "you will get what your are given, when we are ready to give it to you, with specifications we decide, and you will pay what we tell you"
JLR are buying back customer vehicles so they can rob them for parts.
Which they are re-using as if they are new parts. WTF??

 

[DaveB]

I am pretty sure they will sort things out as well.
The question is when.
I dont know if I see a sense of urgency to address whatever issues are at hand, no matter minor or major. Again, maybe a British thing as the English are a bit more laid back about things than Americans...I dont know.
What I dont understand is how current owners are told to deal with their sales center and then the sales center says they haven't really heard from Ineos in awhile.
I find the lack of support and communication from Ineos disturbing.
Moreso than the issues themself.

We have no problem in Australia communicating with them or our dealers.