Americas Bailers?

[David Czarnecki]

I'm likely to bail on the Grenadier. I drove it a few weeks ago and it was really good, but not nearly as good as my new Defender. The driver interface, materials, and details just weren't there for me. At $50-$60K I think it'd be a winner. But the MSRP on my build is $85K. In my opinion they're not delivering enough for that amount of money. A couple weeks ago I drove a Ford Bronco Wildtrak for the first time and it was much better than the Grenadier for $20K less. A Bronco, and certainly my Defender, may not last for 30 years and be able to be fixed while crossing the Australian outback, but I don't need it to do that. I'm still very interested in the Gren but I may wait for a Gen 2 or Gen 3 version before I jump back in.

I have a 2023 Bronco Badlands and it's surprisingly solid and almost the size of the IG.

 

[anand]

450...I was able to preorder with nothing down in August. I gave them $1000 at the dealer in October after test driving one.

Interesting, Triad has never requested a deposit from me

 

[[ Adam ]]

Interesting trend I'm seeing over the last few days - about 10 folks I know whom have ordered the vehicle are opting not to take delivery for a myriad of reasons. Build issues, price, other options, risk of high depreciation - etc. These are all VERY thoughtful/smart people whom I've met here and other places that at the end decided to end their journey at this point; couple said they may wait for the next model release for more 'gremlin removal.'

Curious to hear what others are noticing as well - as one person I'm a small sample - but are others seeing the same thing? Might open up some room for negotiating with the dealers if we see many unallocated vehicles for sale at the dealers.

Just wait until the next Mission Impossible comes out

 

[Tom109]

I was doing some thinking today on my school run about the IG and sales of them. I remembered when I got my L663 and I was the only one in the neighborhood for a long while. People would ring my doorbell or stop me in my driveway to ask me about it. It took a good year and half before they started to pop up all over the place. Now I have at least 10 in neighborhood and see them on regular basis. I think this will be the same for IG. It's going to take a good year for them to start popping up.

I’ve been thinking about a Land Rover (green oval) spare tire cover to discourage those conversations.

 

[Rocky10]

It really comes down to what you want out of it I have had 3 LR Defender 110's, 2 X versions. LR bought the first one back after the engine had a catastrophic failure. It is a much better highway ride than the Grenadier, probably because of the air ride. There was always this bad feeling I had driving it across the Continental Divide in Montana at -10 F with no cell service. On one trip I lost the cruise in that area. What else was weird about the LR was, you had this sequence of events to change a tire. It was like disarming a bomb. If you didn't get it right, it would deploy the AB. Also some gremlin check engine lights. I had 6 other LR and RR's over the last 10 years. I currently have zero now. I also have( trying to sell) a Hennessy Velociraptor first edition Bronco. It is very capable. It drives nice on the Highway, it also has a lot more creature comforts than the Grenadier. I don't like how cheap the sheet metal on it feels, and the view over the front. It was my wife's car. I have driven my Grenadier for a few days now. It has things I love and things I would change. I didn't buy it worrying about depreciation, what you get for the money, or a happy ending. I was impressed with the amount of effort that went into the development, and how cool it looks. Every vehicle I have ever owned had something I didn't like about it. So, to each his own. Good luck to those and what ever you may decide.

 

[Coullabus]

The Gwagon crowd wants a 'Happy Ending' option pack before they will shop IG

Surely designed for the Traditional Defender owner (guilty as charged m’lud) put off and frustrated by the new Defender.

 

[Coullabus]

Have you cancelled too Krabby? Could never trust the Yanks......

Regarding RHD vehicles, the left side area could be better - but I'm used to it.

yes, that chunky exhause housing in the drivers footwell initially seems unusual.. I am not tall, a mere 5’ 8”. But it really doesn’t present a problem. Thinking how cramped the driving position was in some Defenders.

 

[Coullabus]

Very few people in the world or even in the 4x4 world know about the Grenadier. Anytime I speak cars with friends or clients and every time I call an aftermarket supplier and ask them if they are going to support the Grenadier, they say what is a Grenadier. It gives me pure joy to tell them the story. Once the public and 4x4 community starts seeing the Grenadier plying the roads and in it's natural habit, it is my belief that demand for the vehicle will continue to build and be very strong. Unlike the initial disconnect that many gave the New Defender, because of its new look, (not me I took advantage of that and bought one of the first 2020 First Editions below MSRP), the Grenadier is a vehicle that instantaneously connects with your soul. Even if demand falls short, who cares, I am getting a vehicle that I always wanted and did not know existed until Sir Jim Ratcliffe birthed it into reality. The Grenadier had me at Hello. I count myself one of the lucky ones. DaBull

Sir Jim, fortunately, had the wealth, resources and business acumen to create the vehicle a lot of us craved. The new Defender did nothing for me or Mrs C. The new 110 was too cramped in the back for the 4 dogs, and it really comes across as a Discovery type rather than a Defender. Sad days. Meant I spent £16k on up-grading my Puma 110. As we thought the Grenadier was too expensive for us retired folk. The £16k was a waste of money. The upgrades were ok, but it still regularly let me down. (Did mean I sold it for almost what I paid for it in 2011).

The world will learn, maybe slowly, about the Grenadier. And answering people’s questions is fun! We have learned. We tapped the secondhand market. Got our ideal Grenadier With just 1800 miles on the clock, just 6 months old. Ok, there are a couple of teething issues needing to be sorted under warranty. But the Grenadier certainly fills the gap in the market where I was sitting!

 

[cjsmith]

Sir Jim, fortunately, had the wealth, resources and business acumen to create the vehicle a lot of us craved. The new Defender did nothing for me or Mrs C. The new 110 was too cramped in the back for the 4 dogs, and it really comes across as a Discovery type rather than a Defender. Sad days. Meant I spent £16k on up-grading my Puma 110. As we thought the Grenadier was too expensive for us retired folk. The £16k was a waste of money. The upgrades were ok, but it still regularly let me down. (Did mean I sold it for almost what I paid for it in 2011).

The world will learn, maybe slowly, about the Grenadier. And answering people’s questions is fun! We have learned. We tapped the secondhand market. Got our ideal Grenadier With just 1800 miles on the clock, just 6 months old. Ok, there are a couple of teething issues needing to be sorted under warranty. But the Grenadier certainly fills the gap in the market where I was sitting!

Hope to follow your lead with a secondhand Grenadier. Not convinced the current MY2024 is any better than my RAM Rebel for what I use it. Just cancelled my pre-order and will wait a year or two before trying again. Good luck to all you owners, I will be envious until I finally get one.

 

[TX Wilderness Seeker]

I have appreciated the cancelled orders because we had the opportunity to get one earlier than expected. Although, I am missing a few upgrades i previously ordered and we did a color swap.

 

[Roadking01]

IMO, the IG is currently a niche market. The lack of some perceived creature comforts will be a drawback coupled with “are they going to make it”, along with zero advertising in the USA, higher interest rates, and lack of dealer network. The guys that wanted a Defender (not the new one, no offense), that dreamt of riding through Africa or doing the Camel Trophy are happy.

Some may wait for gen 2 to see if there are upgrades. I ordered a 2023 Raptor R last Jan got bumped to 2024 and am glad to get the upgrades. However, I’m excited about the Donny Grey. Nice to have a vehicle that you can just bolt stuff on, get off road, and not be one of 1,000,000 whatever else.

I’ve also wondered, is the Ineos badge the same size as a BMW badge and that will be BMW’s entry into the GWagon/RR world at some point?

 

[anand]

I’ve also wondered, is the Ineos badge the same size as a BMW badge and that will be BMW’s entry into the GWagon/RR world at some point?

It isn't... This has been mentioned before, but it isn't a market that BMW has shown any interest in involving themselves with. Not to mention, I'm not sure they would want to buy all the tooling/rights/etc of an already set-up global brand from Sir Jim.

 

[DaBull]

IMO, the IG is currently a niche market. The lack of some perceived creature comforts will be a drawback coupled with “are they going to make it”, along with zero advertising in the USA, higher interest rates, and lack of dealer network. The guys that wanted a Defender (not the new one, no offense), that dreamt of riding through Africa or doing the Camel Trophy are happy.

Some may wait for gen 2 to see if there are upgrades. I ordered a 2023 Raptor R last Jan got bumped to 2024 and am glad to get the upgrades. However, I’m excited about the Donny Grey. Nice to have a vehicle that you can just bolt stuff on, get off road, and not be one of 1,000,000 whatever else.

I’ve also wondered, is the Ineos badge the same size as a BMW badge and that will be BMW’s entry into the GWagon/RR world at some point?

Hi Roadking01, It's a niche market for now, just like when I was an early adopter of the New Defender and purchased one of the First Edition Defender Models in 2020. At first no one knew what to think about it and everyone stood around pondering it and there were few if any on the road. Then more found out about it and more were seen. Then it became a huge success and their most popular selling vehicle. I predict here and now, we are on the same track with the Grenadier and perhaps even more so as it's design aesthetic is instantly recognizable and desired. Once there is more exposure both through advertising and more importantly out in the community, in my opinion, demand will quickly out strip supply by a large amount. Anyone wanting one now, should take advantage of being an early adopter or you will be waiting years and years to get one. They just don't have the production capacity that I believe they will need to full-fill all the orders that will start flooding in. Just my thoughts. Better get your pre-order in now!
Mine is arriving in April. DaBull

 

[RYAustralia]

I love my grenadier. About 5000 km on the odometer now. It is brilliant on-road, and also off road. We even use it for the occasional school run and the kids love it. Our other cars are a bmw X6 (mine) a mini john cooper works (wife). We both love driving the grenadier. Previous cars have been Land Rover defender, Mitsubishi Pajero, BMW X5, BMW Z4, VW Golf GTi, VW Beetle amongst others.

We love the grenadier - minimal issues. No worse than any other brand from new is our experience. A few niggles - like every new car has. And dealer unfamiliarity makes the process 1-2 days longer to fix them but tbh with a totally new brand we are thrilled and delighted EVERY single time we’re out driving it. It is THE car to put a smile on our faces every day.

Might not be for everyone sure, but it’s the car for us, and we cannot be more pleased to have bought it.

 

[AWo]

However, most just look at the customer page of this book. But there are more pages, which also play a very important role. On these pages enthusiasm, passion and all these things which drives such a project on the customer side do not play any role. But they have to work and generate satisfaction and a feeling of reliability (in the business modell and rigidity) for all participants (most of them are money driven) as well....

AWo

 

[2wheelfish]

This brand’s real benefit is longevity and long term reliability through rebuildability. This takes on-road time and consistent ability to get parts and service and can’t be proven with a brand new truck and parts being unavailable. Time will tell. If things go well, early adopters will benefit, but if Ineos can’t step up with true customer service (which needs some help right now) things will get rough. No surprises, but I do think Ineos’ customer service stepping up for the early adopters is key (this includes resolving wet feet, wet floors, HVAC issues, cracked windscreens, USA hitches and ADAS, door latches, comprehensive service manuals, and parts availability with more service locations). I still have the faith, but also am still watching closely.

 

[DezRoamer]

Very few people in the world or even in the 4x4 world know about the Grenadier. Anytime I speak cars with friends or clients and every time I call an aftermarket supplier and ask them if they are going to support the Grenadier, they say what is a Grenadier. It gives me pure joy to tell them the story. Once the public and 4x4 community starts seeing the Grenadier plying the roads and in it's natural habit, it is my belief that demand for the vehicle will continue to build and be very strong. Unlike the initial disconnect that many gave the New Defender, because of its new look, (not me I took advantage of that and bought one of the first 2020 First Editions below MSRP), the Grenadier is a vehicle that instantaneously connects with your soul. Even if demand falls short, who cares, I am getting a vehicle that I always wanted and did not know existed until Sir Jim Ratcliffe birthed it into reality. The Grenadier had me at Hello. I count myself one of the lucky ones. DaBull

Well said! I fell in love with my 1997 Defender 90. Bought new and owned for ten years and enjoyed it immensely. And yes, I actually used it the way it was designed. Did it have faults and shortcomings? Of course! But the pleasure it gave when traveling back country roads and deserted desert tracs gave me memories of a lifetime.
I have no reservations as to the fact that the Ineos Grenadier will provide the same love of ownership. I didn't buy this truck as a status symbol, I bought it to be used as a tool to get me to the places I enjoy visiting, and putting a smile on my face doing it and I enjoy owning a vehicle that's unique! Purpose built..
As I write this, after two days of ownership, the TPMS warning light is triggered and tire pressures are exactly as they should be. Does this mean I'm second guessing my purchase decision? Absolutely not!
Is the steering as precise as my 2023 Defender 90? No! Is the ride as posh as my Range Rover was? Not even close!
I do think, If the Grenadier gets its foot in the door, demand will be high. But there are going to be people who buy it for the wrong reasons and after a few months will remember and comment on it's gremlins. Then trade it in on something less utility. I saw this happen with US spec Defenders. And look what the market saw with those trucks.
After my long (200 mile) test drive, I knew it was a truck I've waited for a very long time.

 

[Catpaw4x4]

I’ve also wondered, is the Ineos badge the same size as a BMW badge and that will be BMW’s entry into the GWagon/RR world at some point?

BMW entered into the SUV market when they purchased JLR back in the 90's.
"The Series II Discovery debuted in autumn 1998, four years after BMW's acquisition of Rover Group from British Aerospace in 1994." (Wiki)
"On 2 April 2004, almost four years after Ford's acquisition of Land Rover from BMW,..." (Wiki)

 

[rovie]

BMW entered into the SUV market when they purchased JLR back in the 90's.
"The Series II Discovery debuted in autumn 1998, four years after BMW's acquisition of Rover Group from British Aerospace in 1994." (Wiki)
"On 2 April 2004, almost four years after Ford's acquisition of Land Rover from BMW,..." (Wiki)

I bought my 1999 Discovery 2 in 2000 from a BMW manager in Munich with 10k on the clock. At that time, some managers switched from BMW to Land Rover cars. If everything goes as planned, I'll sell it in 2 weeks with 355k. Besides the RRC, this is the 2nd Land Rover from my stock from which I am parting.

 

[Catpaw4x4]

I bought my 1999 Discovery 2 in 2000 from a BMW manager in Munich with 10k on the clock. At that time, some managers switched from BMW to Land Rover cars. If everything goes as planned, I'll sell it in 2 weeks with 355k. Besides the RRC, this is the 2nd Land Rover from my stock from which I am parting.

I have a 96 manual SE with 278k miles - sold the 22 Tiguan and kept the Discovery