Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

[ADVAW8S]

Read a article about the New Toyota Grand Highlander. There was a interesting comment about the European car makers trying to meet the American wants (not need). " It was Volkswagen that realized there was room for foreign brands to go bigger. The Germans rolled out their massive three-row concept about a decade ago and had a Volkswagen Atlas on American roads just four years later, in 2017. The Atlas's recipe was simple: Provide an acre of sheetmetal at Dollar-Store prices. Quality and driving experience were sacrificed on an altar built of those priorities." You can only guess where the article went with the Highlander.

 

[40man]

Read a article about the New Toyota Grand Highlander. There was a interesting comment about the European car makers trying to meet the American wants (not need). " It was Volkswagen that realized there was room for foreign brands to go bigger. The Germans rolled out their massive three-row concept about a decade ago and had a Volkswagen Atlas on American roads just four years later, in 2017. The Atlas's recipe was simple: Provide an acre of sheetmetal at Dollar-Store prices. Quality and driving experience were sacrificed on an altar built of those priorities." You can only guess where the article went with the Highlander.

I've had Highlander rentals. They actually drive decent for a mid-range crossover type SUV (I call them minivans in disguise). I'm sure the Grand Highlander will be fine for larger families that don't want a minivan and never offroad. And yes, definitely a big market in the U.S. for that type of vehicle, 'Mericans like big vehicles. Part of the reason I buy really heavy SUVs, as I don't want to be the guy in the 1,500 lb car that gets broadsided by the 6,000 lb truck.

As far as the Atlas, I lost all confidence in VW after "dieselgate".

 

[DaveB]

Part of that difference in price, it seems, may come from the adding of all the ridiculous driver aids that the Grenadier was supposed to be AGAINST, with the exception of ABS. But...heaven forbid there's a heated steering wheel in the interest of "simplicity" and purpose.

View attachment 7814310

I assume they were either required by US law or dealers wanted them as a sales aid.
They are not in any other market
US also gets two extra airbags

 

[anand]

I lost all confidence in VW after "dieselgate".

Essentially every diesel manufacturer was actually doing the same thing as VW/Audi... The fallout from that is a key component as to why the Grenadier isn't available as a diesel in North America (this is a downstream byproduct of BMW discontinuing the sale of diesel vehicles here)

 

[CryHavoc]

I assume they were either required by US law or dealers wanted them as a sales aid.
They are not in any other market
US also gets two extra airbags

ABS and ESC are required...and automatic emergency braking. I didn't realize the AEB was required now, but that happened in 2022. My last new vehicle was a '21. But this ADAS crap, while incorporating AEB, adds additional...well...crap that is not, legally, required. Regardless of being required or not...there's your increase in costs (and the airbags). At least part/most of the increase if not in its entirety. The good 'ol US thinks you can litigate stupidity, but a bigger idiot will always be born

 

[CryHavoc]

ABS and ESC are required...and automatic emergency braking. I didn't realize the AEB was required now, but that happened in 2022. My last new vehicle was a '21. But this ADAS crap, while incorporating AEB, adds additional...well...crap that is not, legally, required. Regardless of being required or not...there's your increase in costs (and the airbags). At least part/most of the increase if not in its entirety. The good 'ol US thinks you can litigate stupidity, but a bigger idiot will always be born

Actually...the article I saw was wrong...AEB is NOT yet law. Coincidentally, mere moments after posting that I was reading an article in today's Washington Post about it still being PROPOSED as a requirement. So ADAS, in its entirety, is garbage nannies that go against the whole ethos...along with the purely digital dash, etc. Sigh. Stupid, litigious, society.

 

[Bruce]

ABS and ESC are required...and automatic emergency braking. I didn't realize the AEB was required now, but that happened in 2022. My last new vehicle was a '21. But this ADAS crap, while incorporating AEB, adds additional...well...crap that is not, legally, required. Regardless of being required or not...there's your increase in costs (and the airbags). At least part/most of the increase if not in its entirety. The good 'ol US thinks you can litigate stupidity, but a bigger idiot will always be born

And every manufacturer keeps listing ABS and ESC in their press kit like it's something special. I guess nobody wants to be the first to assume the public knows it's there and run the risk of people assuming it's an unsafe vehicle. One glorious day in the future we can pare the spec sheets on cars down and ABS/ESC and the other universal stuff will drop off the way power steering and seatbelts did over time.

 

[Dso715]

Does anyone know if those safety features can be turned of. I can’t stand driving a car that thinks a road construction area is not where the car should be going and kicks in.

 

[Paachi]

Read a article about the New Toyota Grand Highlander. There was a interesting comment about the European car makers trying to meet the American wants (not need). " It was Volkswagen that realized there was room for foreign brands to go bigger. The Germans rolled out their massive three-row concept about a decade ago and had a Volkswagen Atlas on American roads just four years later, in 2017. The Atlas's recipe was simple: Provide an acre of sheetmetal at Dollar-Store prices. Quality and driving experience were sacrificed on an altar built of those priorities." You can only guess where the article went with the Highlander.

Couldnt agree more re: VW Atlas. My wife had a 2013 VW Touareg Diesel. Swell car..it was basically a Porsche Cayenne skinned as a VW and sans the Porsche suspension + brakes magic. It was well built, had a taut + supple ride, the fit and finish was amazing and nary a squeak after 90,000 miles. Unfortunately, an asshole driver (busy on her cell phone if I may add) impacted against my wifes car and we had to write it off. So we went back to VW..ofcourse the Touareg was replaced with the 'higher acerage' Atlas in the US..god awful build, cheap feeling sheetmetal, the under pinnings looked pedestrian and the interior plastics and button quality was poor. Now the Touareg wasnt small by any means but the Atlas was positively humongous.

My wife hated the Atlas..she basically scoured the classifieds and got a used Cayenne

 

[DDG]

I’ve been staring at my email from Ineos regarding converting my reservation to an order. I should have as high priority as anyone who reserved on day one of 2021. My heart has convinced my head (lots of rationalization) to go ahead and order my grenadier without thought to its price. “Value” just can’t be known yet with this vehicle.
It will take a matter of a few years to even return a verdict on build quality. Everything that’s gone in to this project would point toward excellent longevity, but even that’s not guaranteed. Reputations and respect are earned over time. Ineos hasn’t done that yet.

I will spec mine very heavily toward off-road use, but also add leather seats (and saddle leather). Safari windows are a must to me. As are the utility rails. Steel wheels appeal to me more than the alloy designs they offer. I’ll add the winch and tow hitch/electronics , but I’ll pass on the oem roof rack and rock sliders. The aftermarket should offer superior solutions in those areas. Extra battery is more important to me than a better sound system. I won’t need the raised air intake and don’t want the added wind noise from it. Checker plate front fender/wings feel like a requirement to me on this vehicle too. A few other options added also (rubber mats, smokers pack, compass, interior rails, locking spare box, contrast roof, ladder, etc)

So it will fall in the $95k range. Worst case scenario is I will lose 50% depreciation the first year (if the electronic stuff proves persistent). I’m optimistic and hopeful that they will get the bugs worked out over the next six months. If not, then at least I followed my heart all the way to the end on this project!

My intention is to use my grenadier as my main vehicle. I want to put as many miles on it and memories in it as possible over the last few decades of my life. I plan to compare it directly to its natural competitors that I already own. I’m really looking forward to doing that too. Unbiasedly as possible.

I’ll be looking forward to sharing the experience and continuing to gain knowledge and expertise from this remarkable forum of owners and enthusiasts. I promise I won’t whine over small things, but I will report honestly on any issues that crop up.

 

[DaBull]

I’ve been staring at my email from Ineos regarding converting my reservation to an order. I should have as high priority as anyone who reserved on day one of 2021. My heart has convinced my head (lots of rationalization) to go ahead and order my grenadier without thought to its price. “Value” just can’t be known yet with this vehicle.
It will take a matter of a few years to even return a verdict on build quality. Everything that’s gone in to this project would point toward excellent longevity, but even that’s not guaranteed. Reputations and respect are earned over time. Ineos hasn’t done that yet.

I will spec mine very heavily toward off-road use, but also add leather seats (and saddle leather). Safari windows are a must to me. As are the utility rails. Steel wheels appeal to me more than the alloy designs they offer. I’ll add the winch and tow hitch/electronics , but I’ll pass on the oem roof rack and rock sliders. The aftermarket should offer superior solutions in those areas. Extra battery is more important to me than a better sound system. I won’t need the raised air intake and don’t want the added wind noise from it. Checker plate front fender/wings feel like a requirement to me on this vehicle too. A few other options added also (rubber mats, smokers pack, compass, interior rails, locking spare box, contrast roof, ladder, etc)

So it will fall in the $95k range. Worst case scenario is I will lose 50% depreciation the first year (if the electronic stuff proves persistent). I’m optimistic and hopeful that they will get the bugs worked out over the next six months. If not, then at least I followed my heart all the way to the end on this project!

My intention is to use my grenadier as my main vehicle. I want to put as many miles on it and memories in it as possible over the last few decades of my life. I plan to compare it directly to its natural competitors that I already own. I’m really looking forward to doing that too. Unbiasedly as possible.

I’ll be looking forward to sharing the experience and continuing to gain knowledge and expertise from this remarkable forum of owners and enthusiasts. I promise I won’t whine over small things, but I will report honestly on any issues that crop up.

Hi DDG, I took the jump too. Almost same spec. I am glad I did and so far the waters fine. Looking forward to doing some wading down the line too, DaBull

 

[Davman]

I’ve been staring at my email from Ineos regarding converting my reservation to an order. I should have as high priority as anyone who reserved on day one of 2021. My heart has convinced my head (lots of rationalization) to go ahead and order my grenadier without thought to its price. “Value” just can’t be known yet with this vehicle.
It will take a matter of a few years to even return a verdict on build quality. Everything that’s gone in to this project would point toward excellent longevity, but even that’s not guaranteed. Reputations and respect are earned over time. Ineos hasn’t done that yet.

I will spec mine very heavily toward off-road use, but also add leather seats (and saddle leather). Safari windows are a must to me. As are the utility rails. Steel wheels appeal to me more than the alloy designs they offer. I’ll add the winch and tow hitch/electronics , but I’ll pass on the oem roof rack and rock sliders. The aftermarket should offer superior solutions in those areas. Extra battery is more important to me than a better sound system. I won’t need the raised air intake and don’t want the added wind noise from it. Checker plate front fender/wings feel like a requirement to me on this vehicle too. A few other options added also (rubber mats, smokers pack, compass, interior rails, locking spare box, contrast roof, ladder, etc)

So it will fall in the $95k range. Worst case scenario is I will lose 50% depreciation the first year (if the electronic stuff proves persistent). I’m optimistic and hopeful that they will get the bugs worked out over the next six months. If not, then at least I followed my heart all the way to the end on this project!

My intention is to use my grenadier as my main vehicle. I want to put as many miles on it and memories in it as possible over the last few decades of my life. I plan to compare it directly to its natural competitors that I already own. I’m really looking forward to doing that too. Unbiasedly as possible.

I’ll be looking forward to sharing the experience and continuing to gain knowledge and expertise from this remarkable forum of owners and enthusiasts. I promise I won’t whine over small things, but I will report honestly on any issues that crop up.

Yay DDG is back in as well.

 

[Paachi]

I’ve been staring at my email from Ineos regarding converting my reservation to an order. I should have as high priority as anyone who reserved on day one of 2021. My heart has convinced my head (lots of rationalization) to go ahead and order my grenadier without thought to its price. “Value” just can’t be known yet with this vehicle.
It will take a matter of a few years to even return a verdict on build quality. Everything that’s gone in to this project would point toward excellent longevity, but even that’s not guaranteed. Reputations and respect are earned over time. Ineos hasn’t done that yet.

I will spec mine very heavily toward off-road use, but also add leather seats (and saddle leather). Safari windows are a must to me. As are the utility rails. Steel wheels appeal to me more than the alloy designs they offer. I’ll add the winch and tow hitch/electronics , but I’ll pass on the oem roof rack and rock sliders. The aftermarket should offer superior solutions in those areas. Extra battery is more important to me than a better sound system. I won’t need the raised air intake and don’t want the added wind noise from it. Checker plate front fender/wings feel like a requirement to me on this vehicle too. A few other options added also (rubber mats, smokers pack, compass, interior rails, locking spare box, contrast roof, ladder, etc)

So it will fall in the $95k range. Worst case scenario is I will lose 50% depreciation the first year (if the electronic stuff proves persistent). I’m optimistic and hopeful that they will get the bugs worked out over the next six months. If not, then at least I followed my heart all the way to the end on this project!

My intention is to use my grenadier as my main vehicle. I want to put as many miles on it and memories in it as possible over the last few decades of my life. I plan to compare it directly to its natural competitors that I already own. I’m really looking forward to doing that too. Unbiasedly as possible.

I’ll be looking forward to sharing the experience and continuing to gain knowledge and expertise from this remarkable forum of owners and enthusiasts. I promise I won’t whine over small things, but I will report honestly on any issues that crop up.

I am glad you made it over the hump. I have been staring at the email, spec and final build (SW Trialmaster, ~$90K). Still the heart hasnt convinced the head. The 14 MPG and the fact that my G Wagon does almost everything the Gren would do is making the head win. Gonna go camping this weekend and mull it over

 

[DDG]

I am glad you made it over the hump. I have been staring at the email, spec and final build (SW Trialmaster, ~$90K). Still the heart hasnt convinced the head. The 14 MPG and the fact that my G Wagon does almost everything the Gren would do is making the head win. Gonna go camping this weekend and mull it over

I think what pushed me over the hump is wanting to believe it. Pretty silly and any financial adviser would shred me for it; but I want this to succeed and I want to be a part of it. So much so that I’m willing to risk losing a bit of money.
Either way, I completely understand. The craziest part is that I wouldn’t have even flinched had the price been just slightly lower. I am not a price sensitive buyer, but I struggled with the value proposition and had to hash it out hard in my own head.
I’m really excited now to get my hands on the vehicle. This is by far the most time and thought I’ve ever put in to a purchase.
A big part of my ultimate decision also came down to this very forum. There is definitely something special about the people who are drawn to this idea. That adds a value that I needed to account for in my thinking

 

[pioneerofthenile]

I am glad you made it over the hump. I have been staring at the email, spec and final build (SW Trialmaster, ~$90K). Still the heart hasnt convinced the head. The 14 MPG and the fact that my G Wagon does almost everything the Gren would do is making the head win. Gonna go camping this weekend and mull it over

you can still reserve and always bail next month when they come for your money.

that's what I did. hopefully Toyota will will release pics of the new LC by then. if it's truly a homage of the 70 series, not only should you save 20k but I will jump ship with ease. I'm not counting on it though. modern Toyota and awesome designs don't really go hand in hand.

it might be a new defender/ fj clone badged as a LC. not what I'm looking for.

 

[DaveB]

And every manufacturer keeps listing ABS and ESC in their press kit like it's something special. I guess nobody wants to be the first to assume the public knows it's there and run the risk of people assuming it's an unsafe vehicle. One glorious day in the future we can pare the spec sheets on cars down and ABS/ESC and the other universal stuff will drop off the way power steering and seatbelts did over time.

 

[Loc Nar]

Looking at the Configurator - $90 for 30 locking wheel nuts is a pretty good bargain, yeah? They seem to be more expensive aftermarket.

 

[anand]

Looking at the Configurator - $90 for 30 locking wheel nuts is a pretty good bargain, yeah? They seem to be more expensive aftermarket.

You'll get 5 locking wheel nuts, not 30.... There's only one lock per wheel, which is the standard set up

 

[Krabby]

you can still reserve and always bail next month when they come for your money.

that's what I did. hopefully Toyota will will release pics of the new LC by then. if it's truly a homage of the 70 series, not only should you save 20k but I will jump ship with ease. I'm not counting on it though. modern Toyota and awesome designs don't really go hand in hand.

it might be a new defender/ fj clone badged as a LC. not what I'm looking for.

If (I believe it is not official) Toyota brings the proper Land Cruiser/300 back to the US I can't imaging it starting (or being attainable) for less than 6-digits (the 2021s listed/started around $90 if I recall). If they bring in a "Prado" type LC it will have to be pushed upscale to avoid cannibalizing sales of the soon-to-be "new" 4Runner. So the "Prado LC" might start $20k less than @DDG 's ~$95k build (which is substantially over the base-base SW), but to spec the LC up to that level (lockers, towing, winch, suspension, etc. you might be back to $95k.

I know that prices for the new Taco have yet to be released, and I know the "new" 4Runner isn't on the radar yet from Toyota, but a current TRD-Pro 4Runner starts at $55 so I am assuming the Trail Hunter trims will be above that, say $60, but again that's before lockers, winch, towing etc. That said, the Trail Hunter would have to be priced below a LC product to keep the LC as the king of Toyota's hill, but not too high up as the Lexus hill goes higher.

 

[anand]

The new GX (effectively a Prado) is soon to be unveiled, I would imagine it will start in the mid $60ks (current GX which hasn't been updated in a while is $59,xxx).

I agree with @Krabby the new (6th generation, yet to be unveiled) TRD Pro 4Runner I would prospectively price at $60-62k, which, following current trends (between the new Tundra/Sequoia), would potentially put the 4th gen Tacoma TRD Pro around $53-55k; the Trailhunter will be higher than that.

If a "new" 70 series is brought to the US, it would have to be higher in cost than the 4Runner (at least in an "off road" trim); if it is a 300 series based vehicle, it has to be more than a Sequoia, which starts around $80k for a TRD Pro.

Used 200 series Heritage editions are still fetching $100k (more than they did new in '20 and '21)