(The battery and monitor thread )Car dead in the middle of the woods

[das mo]

Hi all.

Car is dead.

Battery was at 50% 2 hours back.
We now packed all together and car does not start.

Is there an Ineos support hotline I can call on a Sunday?

Thanks

 

[trobex]

This is a nightmare I would like to avoid in the Oz Bush!

 

[James]

See my reply just above re why it might've failed for das mo.

The Smartpass and 250SE become one unit. Current is supplied to the 250SE from the alternator via the Smartpass, current passes thr

thank you again mark for taking the time to answer is so much excellent detail.

might take a ‘while until i need a lithium replacement, but sounds like your experience will save us all a lot of learning time.
i must admit, I still cant see how the 250 can both accept current through the + connection to the 120, and boost the voltage back on the same connection, and that without even its own power supply - I hate having to put things down to ‘magic happens’, so if you can see why im still puzzled by effectively one connection (plus ground) and no direct route to service battery, then feel free to put me out of my misery.

And I’ll add the 250se to start with, maybe upgrade in a few years to lithium if thats not doing the job.
thanks again for generously sharing your knowledge.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Wow, only just saw this thread tonight. What a great response from everyone, and exactly why this forum was put together in the first place. Less than 24 hours and theres over 80 posts, offering help , solutions and moral support.

Thats what this community is about.

Glad you got out of trouble @das mo

Thread moved to the Technical section.

 

[Tazzieman]

This is a nightmare I would like to avoid in the Oz Bush!

The best stories come from "when things go bad"
You don't want a bland life do you?

 

[AWo]

If it runs according to the plan, it isn't called adventure.

AWo

 

[KDJDGrenadier]

See my reply just above re why it might've failed for das mo.

The Smartpass and 250SE become one unit. Current is supplied to the 250SE from the alternator via the Smartpass, current passes through the 250SE back to the Smartpass and on to the aux battery. On the way through, the 250SE boosts the voltage per it's charging regime (dependant on the aux battery's SOC), but it can only supply a max of 20A charge. The Smartpass unit itself also attempts to charge the aux battery directly across its terminals but relies solely on the voltage the smart alternator is producing, it can't boost voltage so outputs 3/5ths of bugger all if the alternator is supplying less than required voltage, especially once the aux battery SOC rises above around 75%.

I won't be fitting the 250SE as I'll replace the OEM auxiliary with a lithium battery. Lithium can be discharged without effect down to ~10% SOC so have a greater capacity than lead acid with the same Ahr rating. They also hold voltage above ~12.8V all the way down to that 10% so it doesn't affect fridges or inverters that cut off under load when voltage falls below ~11.8V, as with the EFB batteries. Lithium are also lighter and charge substantially faster as they have very little internal resistance right up to full charge. They will accept everything you throw at them until they reach ~99% SOC. This is a big advantage when relying on engine time to charge the aux battery. I figure the Smartpass will also charge directly at a much higher rate to the lower resistance of lithium, we'll have to see. I don't expect it to charge at over 14.4V as most alternators seem to stop there and typically you get losses due to cabling and distance from alternator to starter. 14.4V is still fine though for LiFeP04 lithium drop-ins with a built-in BMS. Depends how it plays with the Victron 30A BT Smart DC charger I'll be using. These can be custom programmed correctly for lithium and offers BT monitoring / switching and a 50% higher charge rate than the 250SE. I also carry a 5kg 200W folding solar panel I can deploy when camped up for a few days. This supplies 10-15A so can replace 50-75Ahrs/day in good weather. It'll run through a dedicated Victron 12V/20A MPPT Smart BT controller via an Anderson plug connected to the aux battery. This is all still in the planning stages so could change as info comes to light on the Smartpass. I'll put a post up down the track once the system is up and running.

Mark, i have a 250SE which i will be installing. Is there a way i can run the fridge and the camp lighting off the auxillary battery when stopped? Keeping the main battery isolated and hopefully prevent the current situation where all batteries are depleted?

 

[Burki]

You might be aware but allowing the battery to drop this low regularly is not wise for battery life. Best practice is to maintain as close to 50% SOC (state of charge) or ~12.2V as often as possible as batteries have a finite cycle life.
By running it down under 12.0V often, you dramatically reduce the life of the aux battery. The AGM chart below shows what happens to cycle life when the batterys depth of charge is regularly taken to 30, 50 & 100%. The same chart can apply to these EFB batteries as they have similar characteristics.

I see that as very practical. The battery monitor is set to 11.9 volts to have a reasonably good time performance for the inverter. The current lead battery is paid for and if at some point it no longer performs or is broken, it will be replaced by a Li or LiFe battery that can be discharged more deeply. And don't forget that a LiFePo4 battery (100Ah) currently costs around €500 in Germany. You can get some lead batteries for that.

 

[KDJDGrenadier]

Isn't the auxillary battery used to help charge the main battery?From what i understand the AUX battery is only being used to top up the main battery. The external power outlets and the 12V socket in the cargo area use the main battery, or am i wrong? Question is why is none of this explained in the user manual?

From INEOS today:
The Grenadier has the option for an auxiliary battery to be fitted. It is located under the rear second row seating (opposite side to the standard battery). A C-TECH charger is used to charge the additional battery along with isolate the standard battery when engine is not on. It can assist with starting the vehicle if main battery is low.

The main use for the auxiliary batteries is for use of additional electric equipment powered from the vehicle without diminishing the main battery when engine is not running.

The battery specification is: 105Ah Lead acid 12V

 

[bakepl]

I see in another post I can't find at present that the smartpass red wire that is normally connected if the vehicle has a smart alternator is not connected in the Ineos on the assumption the vehicle is managing alternator output to include charging of the aux battery. Perhaps the red wire does need connecting to 12 volts? Does anyone know if the 250se is added that its red wire will need connecting to indicate a smart alternator?

 

[AnD3rew]

The whole reason i went with the auxillary battery was to use it to power my fridge and camp lighting etc. Bit of a shame i can't use it for that purpose but perhaps there will be a work around in the future

Just run a cable from the load terminal of the Smartpass and you will achieve that.

 

[KDJDGrenadier]

Just run a cable from the load terminal of the Smartpass and you will achieve that.

Thanks Andrew. I also bought the D250SE and plan to connect that into the system then charge with Solar. I have a 300W panel. A bracket is the next thing on the list

 

[AnD3rew]

Thanks Andrew. I also bought the D250SE and plan to connect that into the system then charge with Solar. I have a 300W panel. A bracket is the next thing on the list

Yep me too. Black Sheep bracket without the D250 is now a very reasonable price. I will order when he has sorted out the shipping cost error

 

[Highwayman]

A bit late to this thread, but this is my experience using a fridge powered from the cigar socket in the boot space. I have the Auxiliary battery fitted with associated C-Tek from INEOS.

I drove to Munich from home (UK - circa 900 miles) so I think I can assume my starter battery and auxiliary battery were fully charged. I have a small Dometic CX35 in the rear, plugged into the cigar socket. I had no other electrical appliances connected.

I left my car in a hotel car park (underground - so no heat from sun) and after 40 hours the fridge had already gone into “safe” mode to prevent discharging the batteries too much. The fridge temperature had already risen to 11 degrees (c) so I guess it had already been off for an hour or two.

Car started as normal with no indication of problems (no warning lights etc). Sadly, I didn’t think to check the state of charge on the central screen, I was more pre-occupied as to whether the car would start or not, and was so happy when it did.

Since leaving Munich last Wednesday and driving back in the direction of home, I have used the car every day and the fridge has operated as normal.

So my conclusion is that the car needs to be used daily to be certain the fridge will continue to work.

Going into this, I had expected that I would have been sharing the load across two batteries and therefore be able to run the fridge for longer without driving the car. Clearly this was wrong.

Hope this helps the debate

 

[MarkH]

Mark, i have a 250SE which i will be installing. Is there a way i can run the fridge and the camp lighting off the auxillary battery when stopped? Keeping the main battery isolated and hopefully prevent the current situation where all batteries are depleted?

Yes, the fridge being by far the main consumer can be run directly from the aux battery via a simple fused Anderson plug connection, the starter is isolated. Or, you could use the output terminal on the Smartpass, starter is still isolated. Pros and cons of doing this though. Pro is, the fridge is powered directly by the alternator when on the move leaving the 250SE to correctly charge the aux battery faster and without the interruption of the fridge cycling on/off, which can continually knock it out of the preferred charging regime and back into bulk mode. The con is the fridge load will be cut if the Smartpass detects the aux battery voltage dropping below 11.8V, or thereabouts. You may not notice the fridge is off, say you've left camp away from the vehicle beach fishing all day - disaster strikes and you come home to warm beers! It'd be prudent to wire in a cheap easy-to-sight digital voltage readout for the aux battery to give you at least a rough guide on SOC. Best viewed after the fridge has cycled off so the load doesn't skew the voltage. Stick the chart attached below somewhere nearby for quick reference. EFBs behave similar to AGMs.
If your fridge has low voltage cutoff you may as well run it from the Smartpass thereby letting the 250SE do its thing more effectively while on the move. If the fridge doesn't have volatge cutoff built-in you might want to run it direct from the aux. This way in a pinch you can keep the fridge running below 11.8V, but once you see 10.9V battery damage accelerates. OK once in a blue moon but best avoided where possible or the cells start turning up their toes.

Don't rely on the % display in the infotainment unit to monitor the battery/s while camped, it's likely far from accurate.
Until I have the vehicle and can suss out the wiring I'd just be leaving the roof outlets as they are and running a couple of LED camp lights from the starter. It's the same EFB 105Ah battery (think AGM) so should handle small loads like that no problem, as long as it wasn't 50% when you rolled into camp. You could add a 2nd voltage readout to the starter. Worse case you carry a compact jump starter for justin'. I have the Gooloo GT3000 which starts my 3.0L V6 Jeep no problem. see attached.

 

[KDJDGrenadier]

Yep me too. Black Sheep bracket without the D250 is now a very reasonable price. I will order when he has sorted out the shipping cost error

Does that come with the connecting bars Andrew or have you managed to find them elsewhere?

 

[KDJDGrenadier]

Yes, the fridge being by far the main consumer can be run directly from the aux battery via a simple fused Anderson plug connection, the starter is isolated. Or, you could use the output terminal on the Smartpass, starter is still isolated. Pros and cons of doing this though. Pro is, the fridge is powered directly by the alternator when on the move leaving the 250SE to correctly charge the aux battery faster and without the interruption of the fridge cycling on/off, which can continually knock it out of the preferred charging regime and back into bulk mode. The con is the fridge load will be cut if the Smartpass detects the aux battery voltage dropping below 11.8V, or thereabouts. You may not notice the fridge is off, say you've left camp away from the vehicle beach fishing all day - disaster strikes and you come home to warm beers! It'd be prudent to wire in a cheap easy-to-sight digital voltage readout for the aux battery to give you at least a rough guide on SOC. Best viewed after the fridge has cycled off so the load doesn't skew the voltage. Stick the chart attached below somewhere nearby for quick reference. EFBs behave similar to AGMs.
If your fridge has low voltage cutoff you may as well run it from the Smartpass thereby letting the 250SE do its thing more effectively while on the move. If the fridge doesn't have volatge cutoff built-in you might want to run it direct from the aux. This way in a pinch you can keep the fridge running below 11.8V, but once you see 10.9V battery damage accelerates. OK once in a blue moon but best avoided where possible or the cells start turning up their toes.

Don't rely on the % display in the infotainment unit to monitor the battery/s while camped, it's likely far from accurate.
Until I have the vehicle and can suss out the wiring I'd just be leaving the roof outlets as they are and running a couple of LED camp lights from the starter. It's the same EFB 105Ah battery (think AGM) so should handle small loads like that no problem, as long as it wasn't 50% when you rolled into camp. You could add a 2nd voltage readout to the starter. Worse case you carry a compact jump starter for justin'. I have the Gooloo GT3000 which starts my 3.0L V6 Jeep no problem. see attached.

Thanks Mark, that is a great help. I really appreciate your advice on this.

 

[AnD3rew]

Does that come with the connecting bars Andrew or have you managed to find them elsewhere?

No it doesn’t. As others here have done, I emailed C-Tek and they have mailed me some but they don’t usually supply them as an accessory item, so we need to push INEOS to supply them as they are usually included in the box with the Smartpass I believe. However it would be easy to make up a couple of short cables and ring connectors using heavy duty cable.

 

[MarkH]

Car started as normal with no indication of problems (no warning lights etc).

Sounds like the Smartpass activated its Start Assist function, it would've connected the fully charged auxiliary battery to the flattened starter for 10 secs to allow engine start. The Smartpass flashes an LED to indicate it has joined the two batteries in parallel.

 

[trobex]

The best stories come from "when things go bad"
You don't want a bland life do you?

I want bland when the family is in the car and vehicle is working to start with haha!!! I need to read this all in full later tonight!

 

[Tazzieman]

I want bland when the family is in the car and vehicle is working to start with haha!!! I need to read this all in full later tonight!

Just buy a lithium jump starter. Save yourself the reading