Steering

[Sloany]

My Grenadier 5 seat utility diesel, , BFG All terrain tyres, has 37 PSI in front and rears , lightly loaded with 2 people plus no more than 50Kg over the back axel.

Having had a UK car driving licence for 52 years, motorbikes 53 years! Caused no accidents, but been involved in a few. No speeding convictions, no points on my licence but doesn't mean I'm not a progressive driver. Having owned motor bikes, saloon cars, sports cars, collectors cars, military vehicles and commercial vehicles, you adapt to the abilities of vehicle your driving, and that includes driving at a good pace not watching the fuel consumption display, moving on and enjoying myself.

My problem is with steering at speed in a straight line, 4 turns of the steering wheel from lock to lock is not a problem. On British roads, I live in London, around town its a real pain driving "accurately" through congested road and streets, tight turns and manoeuvring driving crossing hand over hand. I've adapted my driving style with the Grenadier, no crossing hand over hand driving, over correcting, racing to straighten up. I'm back to feeding the steering wheel from hand to hand as when leaning to drive (UK) and as the Police teach their pursuit drivers. The grenadier has a small steering wheel so the wheel can be fed through hand to hand quickly, easily and accurately, without panic and without any over corrections required. Believe me it's worth trying, it changed my whole driving experience and apprehension level. I do however have a problem with travelling at higher speeds on faster roads in a straight line, so far I have been unable to adapt my driving to be comfortably in a relaxed manor at faster speeds this includes "A" roads and motorways without constant small/minor corrections. I cannot find any sweet spot in the steering set up or for that matter a speed which matches the vehicle set up? Interestingly though when cornering at a faster pace on any road I have discovered once the weight of the vehicle is on the outside of the corner the steering is much more precise, accurate and predictable.

Any thoughts appreciated, I'm willing to listen!

I love the Grenadier and use it daily for towing mini excavators to and from site, Ive only had 2 brief error messages over 700 miles and none of the other problems mentioned on the forum.

I'm experiencing the same with it on straight roads over 50mph, it seems like I'm always correcting the steering slightly so I don't seem to be able to relax & enjoy the drive whilst on the motorway, this is with & without the trailer on.

Years ago I imported an American RV on solid axles that used to feel the same on the motorway, like it was wandering & needed constantly correcting. Through the USA forums I discovered they were installing a steering damper to correct the issue, once I installed one the RV was fine. I know the grenadier has a steering damper but could there be a different version that may help ( less or more dampening)?

I have also been driving for over 30 years: plant, machinery, HGV class 1.

edited to say I have K02 tyres 40psi.

David

 

[DCPU]

edited to say I have K02 tyres 40psi.

David

You could try altering them to say 36psi front?

 

[Trialmaster]

For those that have a Gren, is the play in the steering similar to that shown in the Harry's Garage video starting at the 17 minute mark while he is driving on a straightaway?

I know this road, he turns off the Fulbrrok to Chipping Norton and heads off to Charlbury where he steps on the gas around the twisty bends. If you look at the roll induced it makes no sense that he tries to emulate a Sports car on those bends.

I have to say he normally does an excellent review, but on this occasion he didn't.

Regarding play - the steering is fairly good, it's not an issue at all once you have driven it a couple of miles.

 

[Sloany]

For those that have a Gren, is the play in the steering similar to that shown in the Harry's Garage video starting at the 17 minute mark while he is driving on a straightaway?

Yes mine is the same, i am constantly correcting it. Personally i don't think its the play in the steering it feels more like i am steering against the damper/load to correct it and then it over steers meaning i have to do the same on the opposite lock to catch it again, all happening very quickly resulting in what you can see in Harrys video. It would be interesting to see how it handles without the damper just to see if that is the issue but i don't know if it would be safe to remove it?

I absolutely love the thing so will alter the tire pressure to 36psi as suggested on here & put 5000 miles on her to see if things settle down. Failing that consult my mechanically minded friends to see if they can advise if its safe to try it without the damper. I am sure someone far cleverer than me will find a fix and as said on the forum it isn't that bad, its just that if i was going on a long motorway trip id take my other car & that's what annoys me.

David

 

[Sloany]

You could try altering them to say 36psi front?

Thanks DCPU, i shall try that tomorrow.

David

 

[Cheshire cat]

Yes mine is the same, i am constantly correcting it. Personally i don't think its the play in the steering it feels more like i am steering against the damper/load to correct it and then it over steers meaning i have to do the same on the opposite lock to catch it again, all happening very quickly resulting in what you can see in Harrys video. It would be interesting to see how it handles without the damper just to see if that is the issue but i don't know if it would be safe to remove it?

I absolutely love the thing so will alter the tire pressure to 36psi as suggested on here & put 5000 miles on her to see if things settle down. Failing that consult my mechanically minded friends to see if they can advise if its safe to try it without the damper. I am sure someone far cleverer than me will find a fix and as said on the forum it isn't that bad, its just that if i was going on a long motorway trip id take my other car & that's what annoys me.

David

I wonder if some of the steering dampers are set up differently. I don’t have any of the issues that you mention. The steering is subtly different but hard to describe exactly what I mean. Slightly ‘spongy’ possibly?

 

[255/85]

Recirculation ball steering is not an exclusive feature of offroad vehicles or a feature of them at all. It was used 50 years ago in cars like in my Land Rover Series 2a from 1971 and in upper class limousins, as it was the better screw spindle steering. It is robust and you need less effort to turn it, that other steerings at that time. However today you only find it in trucks. The recirculation ball steering is less precise, bigger, heavier and needs servicing after a few years.

The most used kind of power steering in 4x4s is the power worm spindle steering. It is lighter, smaller, less parts and needs no maintenance. My steerings of that kind are between 36 and 11 years old, no trouble so far. I once revised my ball circulation steering of my Land Rover Series, no big deal.

AWo

With all due respect, I believe you are mistaken. Recirculating ball power steering will far outlast rack and pinion steering components when subjected to the same levels of abuse.
There is often a bit of a dead spot at center (with the red line straight up and the "Toot" button on the right on Grenadiers) due to lack of hydraulic pressure being applied.

On my very brief test drive the Grenadier's turning radius and handling felt subjectively about halfway between a short wheel-based Jeep and a full-sized pickup. I made a point of checking the feel of it. When making a sharp turn you need to pull farther forward than you might with a standard vehicle before beginning to crank the wheel and then go quickly to near full lock. It was kind of like driving a large Amercan sedan of years past without the overhang. For EU brethren: Watch a lorry driver take a sharp turn.

 

[Unimog 406]

Hi Thanks for the comments.

I would have to disagree with regards to play. There is no play in the steering, it is simply a combination of low gearing and the recirc ball design that does not deliver steering feel until you load it up in a bend. With regards to driving in town I use the heel of my hand to rotate the wheel quickly, not a recommended method but one I have developed over decades of driving similarly geared agri machines.
A roads and motorways again in my opinion it’s just familiarity, elbow parked on door, light grip on steering, look well ahead.

I have not maligned the mechanical design of the vehicle, I was a electromechanically engineer for many years and now a farmer in my older years. I drive using a comfortable position with the right elbow parked on the door and the left elbow within comfortable positioning of the centre arm rest. It's not my driving style, I am limiting motorway at 60 to 63 MPH, it's not safe/predictable any quicker.

First I will check the tyre pressures manually I don't know if I can trust the onboard readings with so many errors. Then I'll try lowering the tyre pressures a few pounds.

An update on a previous post,.
Good news!! Fuel gauge is now giving a reading, I don't know if its accurate, I'll wait until it reads half full and see what the tank takes to the brim.

Bad news!!! Radio has packed up working, It wasn't 100% previously but I had something to work with now it won't tune manually or automatically, doesn't want to respond to the controller and no sound at all from speakers from the radio source.

Good news!! Outgoing phone calls are working, the caller can hear me clearly and I them which is new. Had trouble taking any calls previously whilst stationary previously and couldn't hear hardly or them me.

Bad news"" I parked up earlier, switched off the engine and the cooling fan came on, the fan was as loud as a road sweeper, I am not joking, ridiculously loud, from 50 yards away it was still loud. It stayed on for around 10 minutes., Obviously cooling is required specially in hot climates but today its only 18'C .

Bad news"" Whilst watching the car listening to the fan, when the fan went off the driving lights came on for a few minutes. After moving the vehicle 40 yards after this on switching off "battery warning" light.

 

[255/85]

Failing that consult my mechanically minded friends to see if they can advise if its safe to try it without the damper

David

The damper isn't a structural element per se. It mostly moderates unexpected bumps and the like. I'd think you can remove it though I don't see a reason. A hugely oversized steering shock absorber could make the vehicle difficult to turn but possibly track longer at center. Excess toe in might do the same but would oversteer I think.

 

[DCPU]

Thanks DCPU, i shall try that tomorrow.

David

And maybe get a test drive back at your agent/dealer ~ at least pin the issue down to your specific vehicle rather than a characteristic of the design?

 

[Unimog 406]

Yes mine is the same, i am constantly correcting it. Personally i don't think its the play in the steering it feels more like i am steering against the damper/load to correct it and then it over steers meaning i have to do the same on the opposite lock to catch it again, all happening very quickly resulting in what you can see in Harrys video. It would be interesting to see how it handles without the damper just to see if that is the issue but i don't know if it would be safe to remove it?

I absolutely love the thing so will alter the tire pressure to 36psi as suggested on here & put 5000 miles on her to see if things settle down. Failing that consult my mechanically minded friends to see if they can advise if its safe to try it without the damper. I am sure someone far cleverer than me will find a fix and as said on the forum it isn't that bad, its just that if i was going on a long motorway trip id take my other car & that's what annoys me.

David

Hi Sloany, sorry to hear you have something not right/safe with faster speeds. I don't understand how putting 5000 miles on the steering it will settle down, if it settles down that mush in 5K what will it be like with 10 or 15K?
A question though, what were your Tyre pressures prior to dropping to 36PSI and are you trusting the in car readings? Mine are reading 37PSI which I haven't yet checked. I then plan to drop at least 2lbs or possibly a bit more and go for a test run.
Graham

 

[Sloany]

Hi Sloany, sorry to hear you have something not right/safe with faster speeds. I don't understand how putting 5000 miles on the steering it will settle down, if it settles down that mush in 5K what will it be like with 10 or 15K?
A question though, what were your Tyre pressures prior to dropping to 36PSI and are you trusting the in car readings? Mine are reading 37PSI which I haven't yet checked. I then plan to drop at least 2lbs or possibly a bit more and go for a test run.
Graham

Hi Graham, tyre pressures are 40psi according to the vehicle. I will check them manually tomorrow to check the accuracy & lower them as suggested to see if it makes a difference.

David

 

[ADVAW8S]

Bad news"" I parked up earlier, switched off the engine and the cooling fan came on, the fan was as loud as a road sweeper, I am not joking, ridiculously loud, from 50 yards away it was on for around 10 minutes., Obviously cooling is required specially in hot climates but today its only 18'C .

do you drive the diesel version? On the Bimmer forum. People talk about the loud fan coming from Regen for DPF. For petrol the conversation is around cooling of the turbo. But it seems it is a trait other B58 owners have experienced

 

[Sloany]

I wonder if some of the steering dampers are set up differently. I don’t have any of the issues that you mention. The steering is subtly different but hard to describe exactly what I mean. Slightly ‘spongy’ possibly?

It could just be my vehicle @cheshirecat. After watching Harry's video and a couple of others though, they seem to be making constant steering adjustments. I will adjust the tyre pressures as suggested and if that doesn't work I can always ask the dealer to let me test drive another for comparison.

 

[AWo]

With all due respect, I believe you are mistaken. Recirculating ball power steering will far outlast rack and pinion steering components when subjected to the same levels of abuse.
There is often a bit of a dead spot at center (with the red line straight up and the "Toot" button on the right on Grenadiers) due to lack of hydraulic pressure being applied.

On my very brief test drive the Grenadier's turning radius and handling felt subjectively about halfway between a short wheel-based Jeep and a full-sized pickup. I made a point of checking the feel of it. When making a sharp turn you need to pull farther forward than you might with a standard vehicle before beginning to crank the wheel and then go quickly to near full lock. It was kind of like driving a large Amercan sedan of years past without the overhang. For EU brethren: Watch a lorry driver take a sharp turn.

Please see my post: https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/steering.12411562/post-1333183756

AWo

 

[Loc Nar]

For what it's worth, here's another vid with a few minutes of steering isolation on paved roads starting at about the six minute mark. The steering seems a little tighter than in Harry's vid, but, as noted, that could be due to a variety of factors.

 

[rovie]

I know this road, he turns off the Fulbrrok to Chipping Norton and heads off to Charlbury where he steps on the gas around the twisty bends. If you look at the roll induced it makes no sense that he tries to emulate a Sports car on those bends.

I have to say he normally does an excellent review, but on this occasion he didn't.

Regarding play - the steering is fairly good, it's not an issue at all once you have driven it a couple of miles.

Doesn't the route also go past Stratford-upon-Avon? I know that one.

 

[Unimog 406]

do you drive the diesel version? On the Bimmer forum. People talk about the loud fan coming from Regen for DPF. For petrol the conversation is around cooling of the turbo. But it seems it is a trait other B58 owners have experienced

Diesel B57, its an impressive engine but cabin noise is louder than I expected and I have a slight hearing deficiency, the fan was loud very loud, I'm not one to exaggerate. When it happens again I'll have a go at recording and walking away and see what the sound level is at a measured distance.

 

[Unimog 406]

For what it's worth, here's another vid with a few minutes of steering isolation on paved roads starting at about the six minute mark. The steering seems a little tighter than in Harry's vid, but, as noted, that could be due to a variety of factors.

Driving my Grenadier know way would I be driving at ANY speed one handed or taking my eyes off the road it would be just too dangerous

 

[ADVAW8S]

Diesel B57, its an impressive engine but cabin noise is louder than I expected and I have a slight hearing deficiency, the fan was loud very loud, I'm not one to exaggerate. When it happens again I'll have a go at recording and walking away and see what the sound level is at a measured distance.

Take a look at this bmw thread.

Loud fans after turning off

Loud fans after turning off

x3.xbimmers.com