Steering improvement with more positive caster?

[emax]

If this video has already been linked somewhere in the forum, please let me know.

If not: The guy says he improved his steering so he has a much better driving experience and has to make much less corrections when driving (on the road).

I'm not an expert in this field, so I would like some opinions or clarifications: Is it worth trying his approach?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiQ7E7a8Gds

 

[Tinerfeño]

Looks like it has a suspension lift.
Theory is correct and I already said that 1 degree is a low figure. 2 degrees is better but could be even more.
What is caster angle on standard suspension?

 

[Tazzieman]

If this video has already been linked somewhere in the forum, please let me know

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiQ7E7a8Gds

Americas - Interesting Steering / Adjustment Post from Owl Vans Engineering

Interesting post on YouTube from Owl Vans Engineering about the driveability of the Grenadier at 'speed.' Somewhat of a simple and disturbing revelation about the alignment/caster of the Grenadier. Whether it was 'by design' or 'by accident' as referenced in the video, zero caster is no good...

www.theineosforum.com

3rd party Videos - Castor angle

View: https://youtu.be/OiQ7E7a8Gds?si=XCyvlGntFLa2wmk4

www.theineosforum.com

 

[[ Adam ]]

2 degrees of caster (as recommended in the video) is the factory specification.

 

[Krabby]

2 degrees of caster (as recommended in the video) is the factory specification.

Exactly.

 

[grenadierguy]

Exactly.

Beaten to it by @[Adam] and @Krabby!

 

[IslandFalconer]

I added 1.5 Degrees of caster and it made a nice difference in steering response.

 

[emax]

Thank you all.

It seems there are already other threads about this topic, I hadn't seen that, sorry.

 

[Tom D]

I have never had any issues with mine so I guess it was set right at the factory.
I just checked and the bolts are sitting in the mid way position.

 

[LWA55DAL]

Guys adding my thoughts as my IG is 100% stock today and I just passed the 4k Mile mark. Initially when I picked up the vehicle I was a little disappointed with the overall steering and alignment of the vehicle. I drove it home from Dallas to San Antonio and I could tell that there was something wrong with the alignment, but I also thought there might be some tire “pull” and I hoped that it would just get better. At approx 750 Miles I took the vehicle to a local alignment shops, along with the factory specs, and it was noted that the alignment was off, but the camber and caster were OK. After the alignment the overall steering improved, but I still felt like there was too much play in the steering. Since we don’t have have a local dealer in SA and not wanting to drive to Houston or Dallas I just decided I would “live with it”. I have been driving the vehicle every day as a “daily driver” and I know this may sound crazy, but the steering has significantly improved and today it is much better than what it was when I took delivery and event after the alignment. The ONLY thing I can conclude is that there is some level of “break-in” needed for the steering assembly, and specfically the steering damper. As an example - the “return to center” was VERY bad when I initially picked up the vehicle, but now it is actually OK. I won’t say it is great, but it is significantly better than what it was and the steering actually feels tighter. I do also think that some level of “tire break-in” has also attributed to this, but moral of the story - the steering at 4k today actually feels a lot better and tighter than when I took delivery. I will note that I had my wife drive the vehicle as well and she agrees that is drivers better today than it did.

Hope this helps!

 

[Tom D]

I have a theory that its not the car that has broken in .... It's you.
I own a couple of forestry tractors, they have cranes mounted over the cabs. this makes them very top heavy and coupled with large flotation tyres they really rock and roll. When people drive them for the first time they find them pretty terrifying. The issue is that the whole machine rocks and rolls just with undulations in the road surface, cornering makes this worse. The instinctive reaction of the new driver is to correct the roll with the steering, this makes things worse. Over time you learn to literally roll with it and leave the steering alone and then it seems fine.
I suspect the grenadier is similar, it doesn't roll anywhere near as much as the tractors do but the principle is the same, I think if you're used to driving rack and pinion cars will little body roll you will make instinctive corrections to the steering which will make the roll feel worse. You'll end up weaving down the road and it won't feel good. Now that you have been in the car for a while you have developed the muscle memory and it all seems fine...
Just a theory, not having a go at your driving, its a completely normal reaction to a different style of vehicle.
This is backed up by the fact that most of the users on here who have said that the steering feels fine have a background of big old fashioned vehicles: old defenders, lifted wranglers, 70 series land cruisers or tractors. Those who have said that it feels scary are coming from more modern vehicles..

 

[Baron von Teuchter]

Mine doesn’t wander at all, tracks straight and true at 70mph no problem. Bumpy roads yes it maybe follows camber a little but it doesn’t take any thinking about at all.

 

[holdmybeer]

I added 1.5 Degrees of caster and it made a nice difference in steering response.

Nice. This sounds promising. Do you know how much caster you had before adding the 1.5 degrees? (Or what you’re set to, in total now?)

I have been delaying a mild lift because I’ve read the factory setting is 2 degrees and there may not be much available past that. My understanding of steering geometry is that any lift will only decrease max caster available with that eccentric/nut under there.

 

[Catpaw4x4]

I have a theory that its not the car that has broken in .... It's you.
I own a couple of forestry tractors, they have cranes mounted over the cabs. this makes them very top heavy and coupled with large flotation tyres they really rock and roll. When people drive them for the first time they find them pretty terrifying. The issue is that the whole machine rocks and rolls just with undulations in the road surface, cornering makes this worse. The instinctive reaction of the new driver is to correct the roll with the steering, this makes things worse. Over time you learn to literally roll with it and leave the steering alone and then it seems fine.
I suspect the grenadier is similar, it doesn't roll anywhere near as much as the tractors do but the principle is the same, I think if you're used to driving rack and pinion cars will little body roll you will make instinctive corrections to the steering which will make the roll feel worse. You'll end up weaving down the road and it won't feel good. Now that you have been in the car for a while you have developed the muscle memory and it all seems fine...
Just a theory, not having a go at your driving, its a completely normal reaction to a different style of vehicle.
This is backed up by the fact that most of the users on here who have said that the steering feels fine have a background of big old fashioned vehicles: old defenders, lifted wranglers, 70 series land cruisers or tractors. Those who have said that it feels scary are coming from more modern vehicles..

I agree with Tom and no disrespect to you LWA55DAL. I came out of a Tiguan (drove for 2 yrs) into the "G". She came with overinflated tyres and I drove her home 3.5 hrs on the coldest day in Jan at night on a twisty / curvy 2 lane highway thru Virginia. I spent the next 5 months driving just the "G" then into a rental car (whoa tight steering!!! slightest correction and I was potentially over the line!) to go pick up my 96 manual Discovery (my other car of 28 yrs) from the mechanic 3.5 hrs away. Transfer into her not having driven in 7 months - you think the "G" has "loose" steering ). I'm back in the "G", steering is not the rental car but not the Discovery either. "Muscle" memory ... its what you get use to. The Brain is absolutely incredible!!
Cheers!

 

[Zimm]

Nice. This sounds promising. Do you know how much caster you had before adding the 1.5 degrees? (Or what you’re set to, in total now?)

I have been delaying a mild lift because I’ve read the factory setting is 2 degrees and there may not be much available past that. My understanding of steering geometry is that any lift will only decrease max caster available with that eccentric/nut under there.

maybe. It has upper and lower links. it could be designed to increase, decrease or stay neutral. the eccentric is just there for fine tuning within a particular tolerance. I've never seen any detailed info on the suspension to understand whats going on as it cycles thru.

 

[Tazzieman]

Having enjoyed the "armstrong power steering" in my 50 yo Landy yesterday , the Grenadier tracks like a 911.
The moral of the following is don't lose your sense of humour as you age, and don't overreact

View: https://youtu.be/PmXAsfeQ_4E?si=Sc4qHMiWVzcn52yc

 

[anand]

I added 1.5 Degrees of caster and it made a nice difference in steering response.

To confirm, you are at 3.5° of caster now?

 

[255/85]

As an example - the “return to center” was VERY bad when I initially picked up the vehicle, but now it is actually OK. I won’t say it is great, but it is significantly better than what it was and the steering actually feels tighter. I do also think that some level of “tire break-in” has also attributed to this...

I have a theory that its not the car that has broken in .... It's you.

Personally I think it's a combination of the two factors. Sure, we get more comfortable with the vehicle every day and some subjective evaluation is inevitable no matter how hard one tries to get past it. But there's definitely some break-in with the tires, the damper, or the brakes since we bought ours. It drove pretty well straight out of the box but the return-to-center has really increased in intensity. I was thinking earlier today that it felt very similar to the last manual rack & pinion vehicle we owned - a 1989 Honda Civic DX - other than the turning circle, of course. That hasn't improved one iota.

 

[Zimm]

To confirm, you are at 3.5° of caster now?

I didn't think that much was possible.

I only have about 350 miles on mine. it moves a little and it can use some caster, but, it wasn't tracking too too bad on grooved surfaces, and the way it went over crowns in the road for a lane change, was bit more reminiscent of bump steer from lifted short radius arms to me. Like when one tire drops, it turns the whole axle slightly to that side yanking the vehicle a tad, requiring a little counter input which turns into a slight over correction when it relevels. It's all exaggerated with a top heavy rig. The solution is to just ride it out, which is why we just get used to it.

 

[anand]

I didn't think that much was possible.

Neither did I, but the OEM setting is supposed to be 2°, he said he added 1.5°, so just wanted to confirm