New Defender vs Ineos Grenadier

[DaveB]

Yes, but credit to the platform (or should I say, the culture that surrounds it) for having an incredibly robust aftermarket (probably the best in the world) that can address some of those limitations. Still not ideal, but its far easier to modify a Wrangler for remote travel than it would be many other 4x4s on the market because of the amount of bolt-on options. The aforementioned "good luck getting a bull bar for the New Defender" -- the problem with the Wrangler is there are too many to choose from!

That is the same as the incredible aftermarket for the 70 series cruiser in Australia.
Mainly because you need to add a heap of things to them to make them useable/livable.

 

[globalgregors]

Yes, but credit to the platform (or should I say, the culture that surrounds it) for having an incredibly robust aftermarket (probably the best in the world) that can address some of those limitations. Still not ideal, but its far easier to modify a Wrangler for remote travel than it would be many other 4x4s on the market because of the amount of bolt-on options. The aforementioned "good luck getting a bull bar for the New Defender" -- the problem with the Wrangler is there are too many to choose from!

Hmm… the healthy aftermarket for Harley Davidsons doesn’t lead me to conclude that it’s a dynamically appealing bike or is suitable for the same things as my Ducati. Let’s celebrate these sort of lifestyle vehicles for what they are and be happy to stop there. It’s no criticism of Jeep that the Wrangler is not great at use cases that it wasn’t designed to meet.

 

[stickshifter]

Yes, but credit to the platform (or should I say, the culture that surrounds it) for having an incredibly robust aftermarket (probably the best in the world) that can address some of those limitations. Still not ideal, but its far easier to modify a Wrangler for remote travel than it would be many other 4x4s on the market because of the amount of bolt-on options. The aforementioned "good luck getting a bull bar for the New Defender" -- the problem with the Wrangler is there are too many to choose from!

Absolutely right. It is hard to get super-remote in the lower 48 (contiguous U.S.) - and there just aren't that many places where you have to carry extra fuel. In this way, perhaps the U.S. differs from Australia. Here in the U.S. the Wrangler is probably the most popular vehicle for remote travel.

If you want more practical (though not 'legal') payload, you can take your pick from dozens and dozens of aftermarket options - many of which are 'reasonably' priced. Then, all you have to do is pack sensibly. Travel in a Wrangler actually compels one to be a little bit minimalist, which - one might argue - is a healthy approach to time spent in the back-country. As mentioned above, there aren't too many places where you actually need to carry extra fuel, so you can focus on carrying water, and the basics for camping, hiking, or whatever you like to do. In fact, if you are not in the desert, you don't even need to carry much water, as there is usually snow you can melt, or water available that you can run through a filter.

The Wrangler is not the right vehicle for everyone. And it might be right for you at one point in your life, but not at another. I owned a CJ and a JK, but then moved to alternatives that worked better for my circumstances. But I could see myself buying a JL and pairing it with something like a Power Wagon for our two-car household.

Jeep replaced all the aluminum steering boxes in the JL with cast iron ones, and now the JL drives really well on-road. There is a little bit of play in the steering - just like in the Grenadier - which is a consequence of the recirculating ball set-up (same basic design as found in the Grenadier). So Grenadier enthusiasts might want to think twice about knocking the Wrangler for its on-road handling.

Right off the factory floor, the JL Rubicon is phenomenal off-road, and with the "Recon" package - 35 inch tires, a full-size spare which actually fits on the back, 4.56 gearing, and a 1.5 inch lift - all installed and warrantied by the factory, the Rubicon gives a lot of people exactly what they want.

Weighing in at 4,450 pounds, the four-door gas-powered Rubicon is 1,400 pounds lighter than the gas-powered Grenadier; it has a lighter roof, lighter frame, lighter axles, and lighter running gear. Grenadier enthusiasts see the 5,800 pound weight as only a positive thing - and yes, it is built like a tank - but that is not always an advantage. Lighter weight off-road is almost always better for technical driving. Heavier weight - in theory - is better for longevity.

Lastly, you can also tow a tear drop trailer with a Wrangler. Not everyone needs to tow bigger things, and not everyone needs to carry 1,500 pounds or more to go exploring and camping in the back-country.

Got a nail? Get a hammer. Got a screw? Get a screw driver. Right tool for the right purpose. Long live the Wrangler!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

@stickshifter - perfect analysis. No words other than:

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Hmm… the healthy aftermarket for Harley Davidsons doesn’t lead me to conclude that it’s a dynamically appealing bike or is suitable for the same things as my Ducati. Let’s celebrate these sort of lifestyle vehicles for what they are and be happy to stop there. It’s no criticism of Jeep that the Wrangler is not great at use cases that it wasn’t designed to meet.

Well, as a biker I will say the aftermarket for Harley is actually quite poor for touring -- it's all focused on making people look/feel a certain way with their logos emblazoned upon things that try to make doctors and lawyers feel like they might have a badass streak as a Hells Angel (I'm not judging the riders -- every rider has an affinity to me in my eyes, and people should buy what they like and the "smiles for miles" metric is always the most important one -- but the nature of the aftermarket is very much performative/aesthetic, not necessarily practical). There is a huge subset of the Jeep aftermarket that is the same way of course -- puck lifts and "stinger bars" etc. But, alongside that, there are tons of aluminum armour and bumper options (at least 3 come to mind just off the top of my head and I've not looked since 2013). They have racks, extended range fuel tanks, big brake kits, properly engineered suspension setups from AEV and OEM for carrying heavy loads, and even full top replacements that will turn a jeep into a live-in pop top camper.

The Harley aftermarket is "Do you want the straight chrome pipes or the slightly curvy chrome pipes" and maybe 500 different versions of the same sized luggage. I do like any bike, don't get me wrong, but there's no Harley I would seriously consider in a touring capacity personally (And I'm talking remote area touring and living in a tent -- for interstate only, staying in hotels-type of trip, some models can be wonderful) and the aftermarket seems to reflect that.

I'm certainly not saying you cannot tour in a Harley - people were doing that before I was born - but they are big, heavy, and not designed for it compared to the likes of the KLR650 -- whos aftermarket is far more similar to the Jeep -- and is, in terms of actually getting out and seeing the world, the proper tool for the job in terms of value for money. Scott Brady had a pre-COVID challenge that anyone could buy a brand-new KLR 650 and outfit it for a drive around the world, and fund that drive, for under $20k USD (it might be a bit higher now with inflation). That kind of cash might get you the front half of a used Sportster these days!

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - I've taken my jeep to the most remote parts of North America, and folks like Dan Grec have taken their jeep all the way around Africa and Australia. The first ever vehicles to drive across the Darien Gap - a feat that is still rarely if ever matched, even on motorcycles -- were Jeeps. They've got the chops to prove that they are very suitable (albeit with some compromises, like Stickshifter said) for most 4x4 applications in a touring realm, and they are far superior to basically anything else on the market when it comes to pure off road ability. I would happily sacrifice some of the off road ability for a heavy duty payload version that had Rubicon axles and underpinnings (very stout) but a higher GVM to give me ~1500 - 1800lbs of payload, which is honestly the main weakness I see in the platform.

 

[globalgregors]

Well, as a biker I will say the aftermarket for Harley is actually quite poor for touring -- it's all focused on making people look/feel a certain way with their logos emblazoned upon things that try to make doctors and lawyers feel like they might have a badass streak as a Hells Angel (I'm not judging the riders -- every rider has an affinity to me in my eyes, and people should buy what they like and the "smiles for miles" metric is always the most important one -- but the nature of the aftermarket is very much performative/aesthetic, not necessarily practical). There is a huge subset of the Jeep aftermarket that is the same way of course -- puck lifts and "stinger bars" etc. But, alongside that, there are tons of aluminum armour and bumper options (at least 3 come to mind just off the top of my head and I've not looked since 2013). They have racks, extended range fuel tanks, big brake kits, properly engineered suspension setups from AEV and OEM for carrying heavy loads, and even full top replacements that will turn a jeep into a live-in pop top camper.

The Harley aftermarket is "Do you want the straight chrome pipes or the slightly curvy chrome pipes" and maybe 500 different versions of the same sized luggage. I do like any bike, don't get me wrong, but there's no Harley I would seriously consider in a touring capacity personally (And I'm talking remote area touring and living in a tent -- for interstate only, staying in hotels-type of trip, some models can be wonderful) and the aftermarket seems to reflect that.

I'm certainly not saying you cannot tour in a Harley - people were doing that before I was born - but they are big, heavy, and not designed for it compared to the likes of the KLR650 -- whos aftermarket is far more similar to the Jeep -- and is, in terms of actually getting out and seeing the world, the proper tool for the job in terms of value for money. Scott Brady had a pre-COVID challenge that anyone could buy a brand-new KLR 650 and outfit it for a drive around the world, and fund that drive, for under $20k USD (it might be a bit higher now with inflation). That kind of cash might get you the front half of a used Sportster these days!

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - I've taken my jeep to the most remote parts of North America, and folks like Dan Grec have taken their jeep all the way around Africa and Australia. The first ever vehicles to drive across the Darien Gap - a feat that is still rarely if ever matched, even on motorcycles -- were Jeeps. They've got the chops to prove that they are very suitable (albeit with some compromises, like Stickshifter said) for most 4x4 applications in a touring realm, and they are far superior to basically anything else on the market when it comes to pure off road ability. I would happily sacrifice some of the off road ability for a heavy duty payload version that had Rubicon axles and underpinnings (very stout) but a higher GVM to give me ~1500 - 1800lbs of payload, which is honestly the main weakness I see in the platform.

I try to buy in to the hype.

A part of me just can’t get past the idea that it’s all been downhill since the HZ Holden Overlander.

 

[DaveB]

I try to buy in to the hype.

A part of me just can’t get past the idea that it’s all been downhill since the HZ Holden Overlander.

View attachment 7814703

Fantastic vehicle.
Made in Tassie.

 

[Max]

I try to buy in to the hype.

A part of me just can’t get past the idea that it’s all been downhill since the HZ Holden Overlander.

Is that the Maheno wreck on Frazer Island by chance or Dickies wreck Caloundra? Great car.

 

[globalgregors]

Poached from the attached article. Don’t know!

 

[pioneerofthenile]

I try to buy in to the hype.

A part of me just can’t get past the idea that it’s all been downhill since the HZ Holden Overlander.

View attachment 7814703

looks like a 1984 Subaru wagon/hatchback. which were cool looking and a no nonsense 4x4 car

 

[Tazzieman]

looks like a 1984 Subaru wagon/hatchback. which were cool looking and a no nonsense 4x4 car

View attachment 7814772

We had one of those and they are hugely capable. Ground clearance was an issue but we did some pretty steep and gnarly rock trails in ours.

 

[Wayneos]

We had one of those and they are hugely capable. Ground clearance was an issue but we did some pretty steep and gnarly rock trails in ours.

Had one too, epic little car!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I try to buy in to the hype.

A part of me just can’t get past the idea that it’s all been downhill since the HZ Holden Overlander.

View attachment 7814703

Yes, please, I’ll take one!

What a great looking little rig!

 

[curb-optional]

I’ll chime in as someone owning a New Defender. Have a little over 32,000 trouble free miles and love the car. Admittedly I don’t get the chance to overland or drive off road enough and it’s primarily my daily driver. I ordered mine and spec’d the ‘locking diff’ along with the other main packages. Tows my 7500 lb boat with ease and all in all it’s been my favorite SUV I’ve owned. While I loved the original Defender - here in the US it just wasn’t practical for me to have one restored that would work for my needs. As a 3rd car sure it would work, but I have an Alfa 4C to fill that void. With that said I’ve been a reservation holder since the option first was release, and the Grenadier will likely replace my wife’s G550. To us it’s the closest modern interpretation of the Defender/GWagon and we’ll use it for both daily driving and adventures. At this point I’m planning on keeping my ND and swapping the Grenadier for the GWagon.

While many people think they wanted a more rugged interpretation of the New Defender the reality is they likely wouldn’t have sold as well. Can be a polarizing view here amongst us enthusiasts but I’ll be the one to say it. The vast majority of the population is too soft and uncompromising when it comes to actually paying their hard earned money. What people say they want vs what they’ll actually pay for is vastly different.

So in my personal experience the ND is wonderful, extremely comfortable to drive and way more capable that I am. It’s akin to comparing a digital watch to a mechanical one (for watch people out there). The GWagon on the other hand has been a let down, especially for a vehicle I wanted to love (ours is a 2015). For a vehicle that’s touted as being overbuilt and uber-reliable it’s been anything but. We won’t be buying another Mercedes, even had a new loaner pop up with a check engine light requiring an engine replacement… All to say that while everyone wants to put down LR for reliability - my experience has been anything but.

I have driven the small LR2 as a daily drive since 2015, now almost 90k miles on it. There were things to replace, and some tech stuff that got wonky, but the engine is OK, and the suspension is still OK. On my prior daily drive, a Forrester, that poor thing had many broken parts due to how I drive. I drive straight - potholes, curbs, tree branches - all "up and over" in the LR. So my experience, like yours, has been that they did something right on the nuts & bolts part of the build, as I've found it to be solid. My prior was crumbling to pieces. While I am certainly attracted to the build qualify of the Grenadier, I'm shopping for a new family oriented SUV for the daily driving needs. My ideal was more the old US sold Land Cruiser: comfy on the inside while still solid underneath, and so I don't think I fit the Grenadier's initial target customer.

 

[curb-optional]

Have found this in the web under https://www.series2club.co.uk/new_forum/index.php/topic,12465.0.html

"All I will say is that having driven not far off 12,000km over the past two years in Grenadiers and about 1/2 that in extreme off road conditions, had I got the money to buy either, it would be the Grenadier all day every day. An absolutely phenominal vehicle and I absolutely love driving them and all mine are prototypes! Closest to the original Defender and built like a tank. The New Defender is an incredibly capable vehicle and head to head I'm sure there are functions that each will do better than the other.

If you do a direct feature comparison at each price level, you will see that the Grenadier is cheaper and has a great deal more on offer as standard. BMW Engines, ZF Transmission, Carraro axles, Eaton locking diffs and the whole lot engineered by Magna Styr is a pretty impressive lineup.

Yes... I do currently work for INEOS and have been doing consultancy for them since early 2018 having worked for Land Rover for 30 years. In my view, the Grenadier is a worthy sucessor for the old Defender and yes - there are plenty of people who really do use these vehicle in extreme arduous conditions. Plenty will buy it to pose with, but there is a huge core fleet requirement where the current Defender does not meet their requirements."

This is a realistic assessment and also reflects my brief driving impressions.

I agree with your outline there about how well constructed the Grenadier seems to be. The ND looks well designed for active family use, and yet maybe it's not as durable as Grenadier; cost wise, they are both expensive SUVs and around the same. So it depends where the buyer wants to spend money. The Grenadier spends it on parts, frame, making it solid, while ND spends money on technology and comfort features. I am sure you are right: some parts of the world need durable and there is no other requirement. For those "fleet requirement" buyers, what else but a Grenadier? But in a few years time, do you see Grenadier being more of a Land Cruiser alternative for the US market? LC did great off road, but it kept everyone really comfortable inside the cabin. Is that a target market for the Grenadier? The LC was $85-90k build by the time Toyota stopped selling in the US, but for that price they were trying to offer both off road capable plus a comfortable, feature rich cabin. Not easy...

 

[Cheshire cat]

I agree with your outline there about how well constructed the Grenadier seems to be. The ND looks well designed for active family use, and yet maybe it's not as durable as Grenadier; cost wise, they are both expensive SUVs and around the same. So it depends where the buyer wants to spend money. The Grenadier spends it on parts, frame, making it solid, while ND spends money on technology and comfort features. I am sure you are right: some parts of the world need durable and there is no other requirement. For those "fleet requirement" buyers, what else but a Grenadier? But in a few years time, do you see Grenadier being more of a Land Cruiser alternative for the US market? LC did great off road, but it kept everyone really comfortable inside the cabin. Is that a target market for the Grenadier? The LC was $85-90k build by the time Toyota stopped selling in the US, but for that price they were trying to offer both off road capable plus a comfortable, feature rich cabin. Not easy...

Cost-wise, the Grenadier is often compared to the new Defender as being a similar price. Here in the UK I am not so sure. The Defender seems to be quite a bit more expensive, unless you are ordering a 2 seat basic version where the comparison is less. In addition, the journalists have commented on the vast array of extras the Grenadier configurator offers. Have they even glanced at that of JLR? !!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Cost-wise, the Grenadier is often compared to the new Defender as being a similar price. Here in the UK I am not so sure. The Defender seems to be quite a bit more expensive, unless you are ordering a 2 seat basic version where the comparison is less. In addition, the journalists have commented on the vast array of extras the Grenadier configurator offers. Have they even glanced at that of JLR? !!

Spot on - this came up in the NA Pricing thread too. For some reason the Gren is significantly cheaper than the ND in Europe. In North America, it's the exact opposite and the Gren is significantly more expensive than a comparable ND (about $85k CDN for an ND with the offroad goodies vs $101k CDN for the Gren to start with, with no extra goodies at all).

 

[klarie]

I agree with your outline there about how well constructed the Grenadier seems to be. The ND looks well designed for active family use, and yet maybe it's not as durable as Grenadier; cost wise, they are both expensive SUVs and around the same. So it depends where the buyer wants to spend money. The Grenadier spends it on parts, frame, making it solid, while ND spends money on technology and comfort features. I am sure you are right: some parts of the world need durable and there is no other requirement. For those "fleet requirement" buyers, what else but a Grenadier? But in a few years time, do you see Grenadier being more of a Land Cruiser alternative for the US market? LC did great off road, but it kept everyone really comfortable inside the cabin. Is that a target market for the Grenadier? The LC was $85-90k build by the time Toyota stopped selling in the US, but for that price they were trying to offer both off road capable plus a comfortable, feature rich cabin. Not easy...

Take out just this..

"cost wise, they are both expensive SUVs and around the same."

No I doubt this. - In the US a SUV may be perhaps considered as something else.. - What in Europe is sold as SUV - is something like an elevated station wagon but size of a subcompact .. ford Kuga or similar, - just front wheel drive.. and by far not to be used as Utility / Neither sports. - The new Defender is rather the category of a Mercedes GL former M class / or GLS depends on size. But their owners would use it as a replacement for an on road vehicle or horse towing at best.. by performance a lot of sports and little utility.
The Grenadier - is if called an SUV for United States point of view a real SUV with lot of utility than sports.
In Germany it is at least out of the typical range what is called a SUV here. The term SUV is used for everything that is a bit more vertical size than a normal car. BMW X6 what is this SUV coupe. / SUV Limousine?

There is soo much shite marketed under the term SUV.
My MB GLK was according to registered as a road car, limousine - station wagon with 4 wheel drive.
My current Discovery Sport is registered as an "offroad vehicle - for person transportation" - literally translated.
When I received it it had road tyres.. so rather an on road car. - and still even with GG AT3 its offroad capability has significantly improved.. but still mostly on road.
What defines a SUV?
I consider the IG as an offroad vehicle with some on road capability.
The ND is an on road vehicle with some offroad capability.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Take out just this..


No I doubt this. - In the US a SUV may be perhaps considered as something else.. - What in Europe is sold as SUV - is something like an elevated station wagon but size of a subcompact .. ford Kuga or similar, - just front wheel drive.. and by far not to be used as Utility / Neither sports. - The new Defender is rather the category of a Mercedes GL former M class / or GLS depends on size. But their owners would use it as a replacement for an on road vehicle or horse towing at best.. by performance a lot of sports and little utility.
The Grenadier - is if called an SUV for United States point of view a real SUV with lot of utility than sports.
In Germany it is at least out of the typical range what is called a SUV here. The term SUV is used for everything that is a bit more vertical size than a normal car. BMW X6 what is this SUV coupe. / SUV Limousine?

There is soo much shite marketed under the term SUV.
My MB GLK was according to registered as a road car, limousine - station wagon with 4 wheel drive.
My current Discovery Sport is registered as an "offroad vehicle - for person transportation" - literally translated.
When I received it it had road tyres.. so rather an on road car. - and still even with GG AT3 its offroad capability has significantly improved.. but still mostly on road.
What defines a SUV?
I consider the IG as an offroad vehicle with some on road capability.
The ND is an on road vehicle with some offroad capability.

I would agree with 99% of what you say, with the exception that the ND is in fact a 1st class off-road vehicle technically, but not reliable or robust enough for long term use in such a role.

 

[lightning]

The ND is for people that do not recognise that tyre pressure, and suspension articulation are your biggest attributes when off-road.

The new Defender will go further off road than 99% of owners (including me) will ever take it.

For genuine Overlanding l would take the Grenadier any day (over my new Defender) for various reasons, covered mainly by the phrase "fit for purpose"

Sadly the recent price Grenadier price increase has taken the cheapest version close to £70,000 by the time you've added a few essentials such as a tow bar and not having it in white.

The Defender starts at £51,000. (£55,000 with the similar essentials such as tow bar and a colour other than white)

l would still love a Grenadier but not until used ones are available for around £50,000