New Defender vs Ineos Grenadier

[Jiman01]

Spot on - this came up in the NA Pricing thread too. For some reason the Gren is significantly cheaper than the ND in Europe. In North America, it's the exact opposite and the Gren is significantly more expensive than a comparable ND (about $85k CDN for an ND with the offroad goodies vs $101k CDN for the Gren to start with, with no extra goodies at all).

Maybe it’s the way each person configures their truck but if you pick the highest trim level and option it out, I couldn’t get the FieldMaster to go past $100k USD (IIRC $97 was as high as I got but didn’t get all the mats, hooks, and other similar accessories). That same challenge is child’s play with the ND (Not counting the V8 Carpathian Edition, sticking with only the I6 models).

In fact if I get my IG within the next year, I should have some change left over after selling my ND and using those funds to buy the IG.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Maybe it’s the way each person configures their truck but if you pick the highest trim level and option it out, I couldn’t get the FieldMaster to go past $100k USD (IIRC $97 was as high as I got but didn’t get all the mats, hooks, and other similar accessories). That same challenge is child’s play with the ND (Not counting the V8 Carpathian Edition, sticking with only the I6 models).

In fact if I get my IG within the next year, I should have some change left over after selling my ND and using those funds to buy the IG.

The US prices are a lot more competitive with the market than the Canadian prices. It seems that Ineos did a straight exchange rate conversion when landing prices, but that's not the practice of other OEMs and so relatively speaking it seems Canadians get an unreasonably good deal on most vehicles relative to the strength of our dollar, which makes the Gren seem like it's very expensive.

 

[lightning]

I would agree with 99% of what you say, with the exception that the ND is in fact a 1st class off-road vehicle technically, but not reliable or robust enough for long term use in such a role.

l doubt that many new Defenders will see long term off road use.

Sure there are some that have already been "over landed" and they've done well.

But l can see a much higher proportion of Grenadiers used as adventure wagons in years to come.

Particularly when they become available second hand for more reasonable money, and more people can afford them.

Currently the Grenadier is around twice the price of a nearly new Wrangler LWB. And you can get the very best condition old model Defenders for around £35k (just seen two for sale, 15,000 mile 110 XS SW and 20,000 mile 110XS SW)

 

[Cheshire cat]

l doubt that many new Defenders will see long term off road use.

Sure there are some that have already been "over landed" and they've done well.

But l can see a much higher proportion of Grenadiers used as adventure wagons in years to come.

Particularly when they become available second hand for more reasonable money, and more people can afford them.

Currently the Grenadier is around twice the price of a nearly new Wrangler LWB. And you can get the very best condition old model Defenders for around £35k (just seen two for sale, 15,000 mile 110 XS SW and 20,000 mile 110XS SW)

Sounds like the old Defender prices have slipped back a little. It was all getting very silly.

 

[Cheshire cat]

A great video that summarises well why a car doesn’t have to be a technically good car to provide tremendous enjoyment and loyalty. The car being driven is the old Td5 Defender and I love the enthusiasm it instills in the driver of the new Defender. He absolutely loves it. . I find the Grenadier provides me with a similar level of gratification albeit in more comfort.

View: https://youtu.be/5Iqy4JP2AZM

 

[Krabby]

That D90 looks fantastic.

 

[DaveB]

A great video that summarises well why a car doesn’t have to be a technically good car to provide tremendous enjoyment and loyalty. The car being driven is the old Td5 Defender and I love the enthusiasm it instills in the driver of the new Defender. He absolutely loves it. . I find the Grenadier provides me with a similar level of gratification albeit in more comfort.

View: https://youtu.be/5Iqy4JP2AZM

Toyota version for 2023

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcLrtueF52c

 

[Solmanic]

So far every Grenadier I’ve seen has been way dirtier than any new Defenders. And that tells me plenty about fundamental differences between their respective target markets.

 

[Jiman01]

ND has been out since 2020….plenty of time to wash off mud in 3 yrs….

 

[lightning]

So far every Grenadier I’ve seen has been way dirtier than any new Defenders. And that tells me plenty about fundamental differences between their respective target markets.

As a new Defender owner l have to agree with you. l've not actually seen a properly dirty one.
The ND target market is definitely different. People who want to think they are adventurous and want the vehicle that could theoretically do it.

However
l think you'll see some Grenadiers bought as fashion vehicles because they are pretty good as a day to day car.

Unlike the old model Defender, which requires commitment and love to use as a daily driver.

 

[Tazzieman]

If all the people who bought them as aspirational vehicles actually went into the wilderness, the wilderness would be a little overcrowded.
So I'm glad they don't , but help keep the vehicle manufacturers viable.

 

[Actually-Roadmaster Inc]

Lots of good resources available for diagnosing and resolving death wobble:

Jeep Death Wobble: Explanations & Fixes

Wrangler death wobble is both fixable and preventable. After reading our guide, check out our Jeep death wobble video to see how we solved this Jeep issue.

www.extremeterrain.com

What Is Jeep Death Wobble?

Whether you are a daily driver, or serious off-roader, understanding the causes and fixes of Jeep Death Wobble can ensure your Jeep remains safe and enjoyable to operate.

www.quadratec.com

I think the Exact Center will fix the Death Wobble. We just need a rig to test fit it.

 

[[ Adam ]]

I think the Exact Center will fix the Death Wobble. We just need a rig to test fit it.

What death wobble?

 

[Actually-Roadmaster Inc]

What death wobble?

I have had several Grenadier owners reach out wanting Roadmaster to make a Exact Center to fix there Death wobble. They are all too far from Roadmaster in Vancouver Wa. So we are looking for someone local to test fit a unit.

 

[[ Adam ]]

I have had several Grenadier owners reach out wanting Roadmaster to make a Exact Center to fix there Death wobble. They are all too far from Roadmaster in Vancouver Wa. So we are looking for someone local to test fit a unit.

So you've never driven one?

I can only assume you haven't experienced what these "customers" are calling "death wobble"?

I have never heard of ANY Grenadier owners complain of death wobble.

Can you provide any videos of people experiencing death wobble in a Grenadier?

can you give any information about what modifications were made to those Grenadiers?

Are you saying stock grenadiers with a proper alignment have experienced death wobble?

Not to be rude, but I think you are a solution looking for a problem, and talking about death wobble here is just spreading misinformation.

 

[Actually-Roadmaster Inc]

So you've never driven one?

I can only assume you haven't experienced what these "customers" are calling "death wobble"?

I have never heard of ANY Grenadier owners complain of death wobble.

Can you provide any videos of people experiencing death wobble in a Grenadier?

can you give any information about what modifications were made to those Grenadiers?

Are you saying stock grenadiers with a proper alignment have experienced death wobble?

Not to be rude, but I think you are a solution looking for a problem, and talking about death wobble here is just spreading misinformation.

Hey Adam thanks for the great questions,

So you've never driven one?
No Roadmaster hasn't driven a Grenadier. Hence why we are actively searching for one...

I can only assume you haven't experienced what these "customers" are calling "death wobble"?
You know what happens when you assume... perhaps "customers" was the wrong choice of words however, we are actively getting inquires regarding our product as a way of addressing your dead zone/play in steering. Death-wobble is a KNOWN issue in the Jeep/Wrangler community.

I have never heard of ANY Grenadier owners complain of death wobble.
Yeah me either. Death-wobble is often manifested after/when modifications such as ride height/lift kits, bigger wheel/tire packages are installed. It wouldn't occur on a new/stock vehicle.

Can you provide any videos of people experiencing death wobble in a Grenadier?
A quick YouTube search yields no results. But lots of results for modified Wranglers.

can you give any information about what modifications were made to those Grenadiers?
At this time no. However, above mentioned are often the cause of death-wobble.

Are you saying stock grenadiers with a proper alignment have experienced death wobble?
What Roadmaster is saying is, you guys have a dead-zone in steering. We wouldn't be here hadn't we received inquires regarding utilizing Exact Center to fix the excess play and give you a clean, crisp, on-center feel in your steering instead of that mashed potato feeling.

Not to be rude, but I think you are a solution looking for a problem, and talking about death wobble here is just spreading misinformation.
In my experience everything that comes before the "but" is BS. The problem has been identified by you all specifically, by a Mr. John E, whom I've been in contact with since July 2023. You know him as DaBull. With any drag link steering/pitman arm set up there will come a time when someone/somewhere/somehow will experience death wobble on a modified Grenadier due to it's simple design.

 

[[ Adam ]]

Hey Adam thanks for the great questions,

So you've never driven one?
No Roadmaster hasn't driven a Grenadier. Hence why we are actively searching for one...

I can only assume you haven't experienced what these "customers" are calling "death wobble"?
You know what happens when you assume... perhaps "customers" was the wrong choice of words however, we are actively getting inquires regarding our product as a way of addressing your dead zone/play in steering. Death-wobble is a KNOWN issue in the Jeep/Wrangler community.

I have never heard of ANY Grenadier owners complain of death wobble.
Yeah me either. Death-wobble is often manifested after/when modifications such as ride height/lift kits, bigger wheel/tire packages are installed. It wouldn't occur on a new/stock vehicle.

Can you provide any videos of people experiencing death wobble in a Grenadier?
A quick YouTube search yields no results. But lots of results for modified Wranglers.

can you give any information about what modifications were made to those Grenadiers?
At this time no. However, above mentioned are often the cause of death-wobble.

Are you saying stock grenadiers with a proper alignment have experienced death wobble?
What Roadmaster is saying is, you guys have a dead-zone in steering. We wouldn't be here hadn't we received inquires regarding utilizing Exact Center to fix the excess play and give you a clean, crisp, on-center feel in your steering instead of that mashed potato feeling.

Not to be rude, but I think you are a solution looking for a problem, and talking about death wobble here is just spreading misinformation.
In my experience everything that comes before the "but" is BS. The problem has been identified by you all specifically, by a Mr. John E, whom I've been in contact with since July 2023. You know him as DaBull. With any drag link steering/pitman arm set up there will come a time when someone/somewhere/somehow will experience death wobble on a modified Grenadier due to it's simple design.

I enjoy DaBull and his contributions, but (I really mean it) he only took delivery of his vehicle on March 7.

I appreciate you clearing things up, keep me honest here:

* you've never driven a grenadier
* you've never experienced death wobble in a grenadier
* you've never heard of a Grenadier experiencing death wobble
* you can't find any videos of grenadiers experiencing death wobble

I think the Exact Center will fix the Death Wobble. We just need a rig to test fit it.

But you can cure the death wobble when it happens.

I don't doubt that. I don't doubt that it will happen with modifications, but I think you are muddying the waters of what's actually going on with Grenadiers.

I also think it's poor form to use death wobble and a dead zone in the steering interchangeably.

What I'd really like to hear is your experience working on large rigs with recirculating ball steering boxes and kingpin solid axles, and what your experience has been comparing them to the ball joint type front ends - especially as it pertains to your Exact Center solution.

I ask this because I anticipate you have some first hand experience in this department given the work you've done in the past. I can tell you that I know very little, and think this would be a great opportunity to expand our collective knowledge.

Please take this as an opportunity to speak with less sales jargon, and employ more technical descriptions than Mashed Potato.

I'd also love to hear your technical analysis (including a shock Dyno or other measurements if possible) of what the issue is with the stock damper and how you are solving it.

 

[Actually-Roadmaster Inc]

* you've never driven a grenadier (No)
* you've never experienced death wobble in a grenadier (also no)
* you've never heard of a Grenadier experiencing death wobble (Yes, I recently learned of such a case. Ask DaBull)
* you can't find any videos of grenadiers experiencing death wobble (correct)

...But you can cure the death wobble when it happens. (Exact Center helps prevent the forces that cause death wobble in the first place.
I don't doubt that. I don't doubt that it will happen with modifications, but I think you are muddying the waters of what's actually going on with Grenadiers. (Wasn't our intent. We received several inquires, saw a market, and pursued a similar campaign as we did with the Wrangler crowd)

I also think it's poor form to use death wobble and a dead zone in the steering interchangeably. (Agreed, as they are different things but again, following the campaign we've already run with instead of reinventing the wheel)

What I'd really like to hear is your experience working on large rigs with recirculating ball steering boxes and kingpin solid axles, and what your experience has been comparing them to the ball joint type front ends - especially as it pertains to your Exact Center solution. My personal experience with recirculating ball steering boxes is nil. That is not to say however that someone at my outfit does not. Regardless of what sort of steering box and front axel you have, if it utilizes a pitman arm/drag link, Exact Center would be an added benefit to such steering set up. Exact center doesn't have anything to do with ball joints. I won't know details until I actually have a Grenadier in ours hands.

I ask this because I anticipate you have some first hand experience in this department given the work you've done in the past. I can tell you that I know very little, and think this would be a great opportunity to expand our collective knowledge. I was personally hand picked for this role, and have been spearheading the exact center department since launch. I can also tell you my off-roading/grenadier knowledge is limited. But what I do know is my product, and what its capable of. Because RMI has witnessed it firsthand.

Please take this as an opportunity to speak with less sales jargon, and employ more technical descriptions than Mashed Potato. (So its like this, I'm speaking to a broader audience, on the internet, on a forum for a SUV. I understand RMI's approach may not suit your expectations, however not everyone wants the 'sales jargon OR technical jargon' for that matter. Those whom are interested are likely to do their own research. I might point our this Wrangler JL Forum, that is a fountain of knowledge. Come have a sip

I'd also love to hear your technical analysis (including a shock Dyno or other measurements if possible) of what the issue is with the stock damper and how you are solving it. So I cannot compare Exact Center to anything on the market because simply, there ISN'T anything like exact center on the market. We patented the tech/invention so you'd be a little hard pressed to find another tandem gas spring riding on the same guide rod on the market. This is not to say you won't find anther 'return to center' shock/stabilizer. But not similar to ours. In regards to the stock damper, I have zero inclinations aside from the issues I've read about on this forum. We welcome any feedback but again, we won't know until we get a Grenadier in our hands.

 

[[ Adam ]]

* you've never driven a grenadier (No)
* you've never experienced death wobble in a grenadier (also no)
* you've never heard of a Grenadier experiencing death wobble (Yes, I recently learned of such a case. Ask DaBull)
* you can't find any videos of grenadiers experiencing death wobble (correct)

...But you can cure the death wobble when it happens. (Exact Center helps prevent the forces that cause death wobble in the first place.
I don't doubt that. I don't doubt that it will happen with modifications, but I think you are muddying the waters of what's actually going on with Grenadiers. (Wasn't our intent. We received several inquires, saw a market, and pursued a similar campaign as we did with the Wrangler crowd)

I also think it's poor form to use death wobble and a dead zone in the steering interchangeably. (Agreed, as they are different things but again, following the campaign we've already run with instead of reinventing the wheel)

What I'd really like to hear is your experience working on large rigs with recirculating ball steering boxes and kingpin solid axles, and what your experience has been comparing them to the ball joint type front ends - especially as it pertains to your Exact Center solution. My personal experience with recirculating ball steering boxes is nil. That is not to say however that someone at my outfit does not. Regardless of what sort of steering box and front axel you have, if it utilizes a pitman arm/drag link, Exact Center would be an added benefit to such steering set up. Exact center doesn't have anything to do with ball joints. I won't know details until I actually have a Grenadier in ours hands.

I ask this because I anticipate you have some first hand experience in this department given the work you've done in the past. I can tell you that I know very little, and think this would be a great opportunity to expand our collective knowledge. I was personally hand picked for this role, and have been spearheading the exact center department since launch. I can also tell you my off-roading/grenadier knowledge is limited. But what I do know is my product, and what its capable of. Because RMI has witnessed it firsthand.

Please take this as an opportunity to speak with less sales jargon, and employ more technical descriptions than Mashed Potato. (So its like this, I'm speaking to a broader audience, on the internet, on a forum for a SUV. I understand RMI's approach may not suit your expectations, however not everyone wants the 'sales jargon OR technical jargon' for that matter. Those whom are interested are likely to do their own research. I might point our this Wrangler JL Forum, that is a fountain of knowledge. Come have a sip

I'd also love to hear your technical analysis (including a shock Dyno or other measurements if possible) of what the issue is with the stock damper and how you are solving it. So I cannot compare Exact Center to anything on the market because simply, there ISN'T anything like exact center on the market. We patented the tech/invention so you'd be a little hard pressed to find another tandem gas spring riding on the same guide rod on the market. This is not to say you won't find anther 'return to center' shock/stabilizer. But not similar to ours. In regards to the stock damper, I have zero inclinations aside from the issues I've read about on this forum. We welcome any feedback but again, we won't know until we get a Grenadier in our hands.

Thank you

 

[Jackattack13]

It was clear that the target market for the new Defender was not the same as the Grenadier the moment I saw the new mall crawler defender. Nothing screams offroad adventure rig about the new Defender. Sure, it carries the checker plates, the raised intake, the roof rack, and a ladder on some models, but lets be honest. The accessories all look a little forced. I could put all of those on a Nissan Rogue and it might come close to looking the part, but it will never play the part in real life. Unlike the Gren, where the accessories look right at home. The Gren screams adventure. The Defender only does in Name.