NATO Plug,Socket

[Logsplitter]

Check out post #33 in this thread. Cable is 50 mm2.

50mm is good for about 350A. I thought I read somewhere that the NATO plug was wired for 350A or maybe I just dreamt it !

 

[Logsplitter]

I’ve just been looking on the Red Winch website and although I can’t find the actual 3500kg portable winch that goes in a cradle to suit the tow hitch I did find the nearest rated winch, the Cobra 2 rated at 3750kg which they state needs a minimum 50mm battery cable for its power. So I’m thinking that 3500kg portable winch would be suitable for a 50mm cable supply at 350A. Just a thought.

 

[MarkH]

You can't talk about amp rating without including total cable length (pos & neg run length). 50mm2 is nowhere near enough for 500A or even 350A, and that's using just 1M of twin cable - over any longer distance the losses are huge and the heat build up in the cable would also be significant which then creates more losses. E.g. you need at least 70mm2 to handle 200A over 5M with an acceptable 10% loss. For 350A 100m2 cable would be a bare minimum over 5M. Plenty of online calculators to determine cable sizes, lengths and losses. In the IG cable run length is unknown, yes they may have tested it and followed Red Winch's guidelines but the losses would be huge causing the alternator to work very hard creating more heat and more losses again. I'd say the neg cable for the winch might be earthed to the body to reduce cable length.

 

[DaveB]

 

[Logsplitter]

You can't talk about amp rating without including total cable length (pos & neg run length). 50mm2 is nowhere near enough for 500A or even 350A, and that's using just 1M of cable - over any longer distance the losses are huge and the heat build up in the cable would also be significant which then creates more losses. E.g. you need at least 70mm2 to handle 200A over 5M with an acceptable 10% loss. For 350A 100m2 cable would be a minimum. Plenty of online calculators to determine cable sizes, lengths and losses. In the IG cable run length is unknown, yes they may have tested it and followed Red Winch's gidelines but the losses would be huge causing the alternator to work very hard creating more heat and more losses again.

I’m only quoting what the Red Winch website says which is a minimum 50mm cable for its 3750kg.

 

[MarkH]

I’m only quoting what the Red Winch website says which is a minimum 50mm cable for its 3750kg.

Yes but notice they don't mention cable length, they leave that little calculation up to the installer. It's the same when buying automotive cable, a 15A rating on the packet means nothing and typically is only good for 1M.

 

[Logsplitter]

Yes but notice they don't mention cable length. It's the same when buying automotive cable, a 15A rating on the packet means nothing and typically is only good for 1M.

Understood but I also refer back to post 33 showing the NATO plug in question that can take a maximum 50mm cable size.
Cable length from battery compartment to NATO socket circa 2m if a direct run I guess.

 

[MarkH]

Understood but I also refer back to post 33 showing the NATO plug in question that can take a maximum 50mm cable size.
Cable length from battery compartment to NATO socket circa 2m if a direct run I guess.

50mm2 has to be used for practical purposes, running 100mm2 would be expensive and problematic. It's a compromise between losses, heat, cost, ease of fitment. 50mm2 will do the job but overstresses the alternator, and winch.

 

[Logsplitter]

50mm2 has to be used for practical purposes, running 100mm2 would be expensive and problematic. It's a compromise between losses, heat, cost, ease of fitment. 50mm2 will do the job but overstresses the alternator, and winch.

Agreed

 

[Logsplitter]

Well I think I’ve found the answer to the rear removable winch and the NATO socket. The supplied socket with supposed 50mm cable (all we know is that the NATO sockets and plugs in question take a max 50mm cable) will be more than capable of powering the winch in question as it has a minimum draw of 65A and a maximum draw of 150A. I presume somewhere there is a suitably sized fuse to protect that circuit. No doubt that @DCPU will investigate tomorrow and report back
picture taken from the accessories brochure

 

[TheDocAUS]

That interesting 150 amps max on rear not 500 amps.

So you would think the rear NATO is not wired for 500 amps, which for my purposes is ideal.

 

[Logsplitter]

That interesting 150 amps max on rear not 500 amps.

So you would think the rear NATO is not wired for 500 amps, which for my purposes is ideal.

Thats 150A max draw on the winch not what the NATO socket is capable of taking. But as the NATO socket is mainly there to power the removable rear winch then possibly the fuse rating for that circuit will only be 200A for instance. I don’t really know any more until someone can confirm fuse rating for that supply. Or when I get my vehicle later In the week I’ll have a check then.
I see your post no 33 has a 500A max rating for the NATO plug and socket and a max cable size of 50mm which as discussed above in this thread lowers the amperage capacity of that circuit.
As above the fuse rating will govern what we can use this circuit for is my understanding

 

[TheDocAUS]

Thats 150A max draw on the winch not what the NATO socket is capable of taking. But as the NATO socket is mainly there to power the removable rear winch then possibly the fuse rating for that circuit will only be 200A for instance. I don’t really know any more until someone can confirm fuse rating for that supply. Or when I get my vehicle later In the week I’ll have a check then.
I see your post no 33 has a 500A max rating for the NATO plug and socket and a max cable size of 50mm which as discussed above in this thread lowers the amperage capacity of that circuit.
As above the fuse rating will govern what we can use this circuit for is my understanding

The higher amp fuses are in the busbars, so maybe that is where the rear NATO plug is fused, and I can see 80, 300 and 350 amp there. We can ignore the 80 amp fuse.

 

[DCPU]

I presume somewhere there is a suitably sized fuse to protect that circuit. No doubt that @DCPU will investigate tomorrow and report back

I looked briefly yesterday. I can report back that actually trying to take the covers off the Littel fuseboxes under the seats was hampered by the plastic seat trim/boxing they've introduced into the production models.

You can unclip the two yellow side catches and lift the lid a few mm, but it then hits a piece of plastic trim that stops it moving higher to actually remove. Maybe there's a technique, but it defeated me yesterday.

Today, I'll go up that hill again...

 

[frankkk]

I keep wondering about those theoretical values.

In practise, the jump leads in the picture were supplied with a 15m coach ex works. They did the job for the bus no problem from what I know - and have certainly done it for me for the past five years.

We jump started anything with them. Once, a 3l BMW diesel wouldn't want to fire up and the jump leads were used for about five minutes, more the less continuously, until they got the engine running.

Cables are 50mm2 and 2m in length.

Jump starting a small engine draws what, 200-300A..?..the 2kw starter motor of the BMW was more like 400-500A I guess, and a truck/bus engine starter can be inxs of 1000A I´d say.

After a few minutes of starting, the cables got a bit warm, ts it...

Running a winch of a NATO socket is equally uneventful. Done that for ten years in the sand, without a single failure..like this Ramsey-type 5000lb worm gear winch.

The "NATO wiring" saves a lot of headaches and money in my book. What has been good for the military for decades, will outlast any consumer or even industrial grade stuff.

Personally I can't understand the desire for conversions to Anderson, once you are used/familiar with NATO, you´d probably want to convert your Anderson gear to NATO rather then vice versa.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Anderson was originally a product for industrial applications and was only later adapted by enthusiasts for automotive use..?

I know, there are a lot of trailers in certain parts of the world with Anderson. Well, maybe they all get converted, eventually.... After all, you guys are getting used to the 13-pin trailer sockets too...

 

[TheDocAUS]

The "NATO wiring" saves a lot of headaches and money in my book. What has been good for the military for decades, will outlast any consumer or even industrial grade stuff.

Personally I can't understand the desire for conversions to Anderson, once you are used/familiar with NATO, you´d probably want to convert your Anderson gear to NATO rather then vice versa.

Because the Anderson plug is almost universally used in Australia on trailers and caravans, with zero NATO plugs until the IG.

I could find only one retailer who even sold the NATO plug.

 

[frankkk]

Because the Anderson plug is almost universally used in Australia on trailers and caravans, with zero NATO plugs until the IG.

I could find only one retailer who even sold the NATO plug.

Time will tell..once demand is there, supply will follow suit..

Here is the HELLA catalogue for Australia:

HELLA AUSTRALIA UNIVERSAL LIGHTING AND ELECTRONICS CATALOGUE

HELLA AUSTRALIA UNIVERSAL LIGHTING AND ELECTRONICS CATALOGUE

www.hella.com

Sure they got an online store and/or retailers, haven't checked though. Dunno whether the NATO stuff is in there, they got several catalogues. If no, here is their distributor for OZ:

Hella Australia and Erich Jaeger Asia Pacific announce Agreement

Hella Australia and Erich Jaeger Asia Pacific are pleased to announce a Distribution and Development Agreement for the Asia Pacific region.

www.erich-jaeger.com

As per the press release, they definitely do HELLA agri and mil stuff.

When it comes to trailers and the Grenadier, apply some lateral thinking: maybe forget Anderson and incorporate 13pin plus NATO into a future layout..?..just a thought.

As far as electrics on the Grenadier are concerned, you got Deutsch to deal with too, keep it simple and straightforward.

Like I was saying earlier:

I know, there are a lot of trailers in certain parts of the world with Anderson. Well, maybe they all get converted, eventually.... After all, you guys are getting used to the 13-pin trailer sockets too...


Are you not keen on the NATO stuff then..?..from an objective mechanical/electrical perspective, I mean.

I find that way superior to Anderson for a HD automotive application..

 

[DCPU]

I keep wondering about those theoretical values.

Are the theoretical values also for continuous use, and will withstand much more over shorter time periods?

Personally I can't understand the desire for conversions to Anderson, once you are used/familiar with NATO, you´d probably want to convert your Anderson gear to NATO rather then vice versa.

That might well be the case but the cost differential will always be there.

Edit: And there's also the form factor ~ a small flattish, rectangular connector seems easier to locate on a bulkhead, seat box, etc than a larger, round connector.

 

[bakepl]

Because the Anderson plug is almost universally used in Australia on trailers and caravans, with zero NATO plugs until the IG.

I could find only one retailer who even sold the NATO plug.

Have to put my hand up and say i have Anderson everything.... but if there's something substantially better I'm keen to give it a go. Certainly tired of mud and debris fouling the Anderson on the rear of my LC. I have it up high with a flip cover and it still gets dust and debris in it. I'll be looking at Andersons for other aux items but for towing will definitely give the Nato style a go. Yes, difficult to get here but easy enough online and I'll swap my van plug over once the I.G. arrives or maybe consider making up an adaptor. To me it's like the flat and round plugs found in Aus compared to the 13 Euro... once you actually use the 13 Euro you understand how superior this plug is in every respect.. other than nearly every other trailer in Aus will have the other of course...

 

[frankkk]

Are the theoretical values also for continuous use, and will withstand much more over shorter time periods?


That might well be the case but the cost differential will always be there.

Edit: And there's also the form factor ~ a small flattish, rectangular connector seems easier to locate on a bulkhead, seat box, etc than a larger, round connector.

I suppose, the socket is rated 100-500A, somewhere you even find 1000A ratings.

We have been using NATO for over 40 years, never ever any trouble, with whatever sort of 12/24V load an automobile, small or big, could throw at the thing. Winch, jump starts, conventional light masts etc.

The cost differential is only short term. MIL grade outlasts consumer or industrial grade by far. The NATO plugs / sockets will be trouble free over the lifetime of the vehicle, as proven by armies across the world. Can't see that for the Anderson gear..

I keep it with Dieter Rams and Jonathan Ives "form follows function"..

Once you have used NATO over some time, you don't want to go back to Anderson, guaranteed. Haptics, handling, solidity and durability are way superior.

I appreciate that converting an entire continent full of trailers is another days work..