NA Trailer Brake Controller Install

[pernsdorff]

Thank you! And only because I deal with this stuff daily (fleet of over 2000 vehicles in my purview). You had a good ground and are using a good quality meter? Not saying you don’t, it’s just something I gotta ask- I oversee the folks responsible for troubleshooting

No worries doubting. I do this to the software developers I guide every day

Yes, tested multiple ways, good ground, good Fluke meter.

Will give pictures too. First is no brake applied, second is brake applied. Note now in millivolts

 

[pernsdorff]

Thank you! And only because I deal with this stuff daily (fleet of over 2000 vehicles in my purview). You had a good ground and are using a good quality meter? Not saying you don’t, it’s just something I gotta ask- I oversee the folks responsible for troubleshooting

By the way, I have not seen any official documentation that this line is even meant for this. But it does happen to be correctly bundled with line to brake output, constant power, ground, trigger(?)

 

[Robert T]

The violet/orange wire is expected to be 0volts when no brake applied and 12volts when brake applied - this does not work as expected from the vehicle. This is how the brake controller knows that deceleration is related to brake applied.
When I tested I was getting 0.22v and even when brake applied it might have changed to 0.23

Yes, the brake controller outputs a variable brake voltage based on amount of deceleration or settings of controller. Since the controller is not getting the expected trigger it won't apply braking voltage.

I am having the same issue with my Redarc. I contracted Redarc and they gave me a few things to test which confirmed to them that the brake controller is installed correctly so it's an issue with the Grenadier not giving a signal to the brake controller when braking. It should be 12v as you mentioned. I can engage the trailer brakes manually by pushing the Redarc control knob. I've contacted Elliott Bay but they are not aware of the issue and are following up with Ineos.

Below is the email I received from Mark at Redarc
mbruce@redarcelectronics.com

The continuous green/blue flashing would suggest the system isn’t receiving a brake light signal.
I made a video on how to best test the brake controller without a trailer being present, I’m hoping this might help confirm things are functioning as it should…

• https://player.vimeo.com/progressiv...2243a7240205e068c81aea72a71458cf67b118c0edf09

If further action is needed, there’s a couple of things we can check for further testing, could I please ask you use a multimeter (volt meter) and report back the following test results…
These particular tests will help confirm the TowPro is receiving all the inputs required, with the trailer not attached should be okay…
Verifying what you can will be great…

• With a multimeter set to Voltage DC, press the Black negative lead of the multimeter into the white cable coming from the TowPro and leave it there as this will be the reference point for all our measurements.

1. Press the Red positive lead of the multimeter into the black cable coming from the TowPro, what voltage do you get?

1. Then try pressing the Red positive lead of the multimeter into the red cable coming from the TowPro, what voltage do you get?

1. Then try the same test again by pressing the Red positive lead of the multimeter into the red cable coming from the TowPro, but this time place your foot on the brake pedal, what voltage do you get?

 

[pernsdorff]

I am having the same issue with my Redarc. I contracted Redarc and they gave me a few things to test which confirmed to them that the brake controller is installed correctly so it's an issue with the Grenadier not giving a signal to the brake controller when braking. It should be 12v as you mentioned. I can engage the trailer brakes manually by pushing the Redarc control knob. I've contacted Elliott Bay but they are not aware of the issue and are following up with Ineos.

Below is the email I received from Mark at Redarc
mbruce@redarcelectronics.com

The continuous green/blue flashing would suggest the system isn’t receiving a brake light signal.
I made a video on how to best test the brake controller without a trailer being present, I’m hoping this might help confirm things are functioning as it should…

• https://player.vimeo.com/progressiv...2243a7240205e068c81aea72a71458cf67b118c0edf09

If further action is needed, there’s a couple of things we can check for further testing, could I please ask you use a multimeter (volt meter) and report back the following test results…
These particular tests will help confirm the TowPro is receiving all the inputs required, with the trailer not attached should be okay…
Verifying what you can will be great…

• With a multimeter set to Voltage DC, press the Black negative lead of the multimeter into the white cable coming from the TowPro and leave it there as this will be the reference point for all our measurements.

1. Press the Red positive lead of the multimeter into the black cable coming from the TowPro, what voltage do you get?

1. Then try pressing the Red positive lead of the multimeter into the red cable coming from the TowPro, what voltage do you get?

1. Then try the same test again by pressing the Red positive lead of the multimeter into the red cable coming from the TowPro, but this time place your foot on the brake pedal, what voltage do you get?

Thanks for update. I sent a question to Elliot Bay service through their form a few days ago but haven't had a response.

 

[Clark Kent]

For the NA MY24 market I think there are now more folks saying they have installed a Redarc TowPro (or other EBC) using the 4x wires under the seat and it is NOT working, than those that say they have used this method and it IS working. Ineos and installer errors aside, how can this be working for some owners and not others?

For those who are convinced their TowPro is working, someone please put a voltmeter probe into that violet/orange wire and report if you have +12V (battery voltage) between there and ground when you press the brake pedal (vehicle ON).
@ScottnAZ I think many US owners are following your feedback on this. Does your violet/orange wire provide +12V when the brake pedal is pressed?

If you read the earlier Redarc EBDK-030 Grenadier installation kit instructions, the kit includes a wire tap to connect to the brake light signal at pin #6 of the trailer socket. There is no reference in those instructions to tapping a signal wire under the seat. I suspect this kit was issued before integrated wiring was included for NA MY24 vehicles. Redarc and other EBC manufacturers recommend you take the brake light trigger signal close to the trailer socket. This has been the only reliable way for the EBC to sense ALL brake activations and trailer brake light illuminations; including driver, ABS, ESC, Trailer Sway Control, etc.
This method may be superceded by integrated wiring in the Grenadier (and Quartermaster) but clearly the under seat violet/orange wire method is not working for everyone.

 

[MTNDOG]

Contact your dealer and notify them of this, they may be able to find a solution...

If not, I believe you can access the required signal at the TRM module in the passenger rear of the cargo area

Tow Hitch Software Update

An issue has been identified on a small percentage of the affected vehicles where the vehicle requires the correction of previous software to enable the Towing Electronics functionality. Click on the download button for more details.

www.theineosforum.com

TSB released 3/20/2024 noting that "An issue has been identified on a small percentage of the affected vehicles where the vehicle requires the correction of previous software to enable the Towing Electronics functionality."

An unfortunate trip back to the dealer as referenced by Anand may be needed.

I'm guessing since the brakes activate with the brake controller override that all fuses are in place, but that might be worth a check as well.

If it is as simple as exposing the trigger wire and testing with a voltmeter while the brake pedal is depressed I am willing to give it a shot when I get some time. (My pre-delivery inspection was done 3/21, software update was originally done at the delivery port)

 

[anand]

For the NA MY24 market I think there are now more folks saying they have installed a Redarc TowPro (or other EBC) using the 4x wires under the seat and it is NOT working, than those that say they have used this method and it IS working. Ineos and installer errors aside, how can this be working for some owners and not others?

Here's a hint... Maybe it isn't working for anyone

 

[Clark Kent]

Here's a hint... Maybe it isn't working for anyone

That's my suspicion and the reason for my post. Six pages in, it's unclear if this method is working or not. Meantime owners continue to wire their Redarc to those same 4 wires following the information in this thread. Time to pause and get a definitive answer from IA, supported by some simple testing if that trigger wire is actually doing anything.

For my MY23 Australian vehicle I tapped into the trailer harness under the right rear panel. There's no ambiguity using that method.

 

[Robert T]

Got a reply from Elliott Bay today:

I heard back from INEOS' lead tech, here's what he told me:

"There is no signal at the trailer brake wire. I would recommend getting the signal from the center high-mounted brake light until there is a factory solution. There is not an ETA from the engineers for this solution as of yet."

I can't believe they released vehicles with wiring for a trailer brake controller but didn't think they should include a signal to the brakes.....

Looks like I'll follow @Clark Kent 's suggestion....Thanks Clark

 

[Clark Kent]

Got a reply from Elliott Bay today:

I heard back from INEOS' lead tech, here's what he told me:

"There is no signal at the trailer brake wire. I would recommend getting the signal from the center high-mounted brake light until there is a factory solution. There is not an ETA from the engineers for this solution as of yet."

I can't believe they released vehicles with wiring for a trailer brake controller but didn't think they should include a signal to the brakes.....

Looks like I'll follow @Clark Kent 's suggestion....Thanks Clark

That is frustrating.

If you tap the trailer harness as per Redarc's recommendation be sure to also include a blocking diode. Redarc call it an encapsulated protection device. The red shrink wrapped item on the left of this image is the blocking diode in my EBC installation. I am using a Bendix branded EBC. Same but different.

How to fit a Tow-Pro Elite to a modern vehicle

Want to find out the wiring configuration for a Tow-Pro Elite into your vehicle? Check out our FAQ here.

www.redarcelectronics.com

Encapsulated Protection Device

The REDARC Encapsulated Protection Device (EPDK-001) is rated at 7 Amps for both 12 and 24V applications. It is totally encapsulated with sealed connections.

www.redarcelectronics.com

 

[pernsdorff]

For the NA MY24 market I think there are now more folks saying they have installed a Redarc TowPro (or other EBC) using the 4x wires under the seat and it is NOT working, than those that say they have used this method and it IS working. Ineos and installer errors aside, how can this be working for some owners and not others?

For those who are convinced their TowPro is working, someone please put a voltmeter probe into that violet/orange wire and report if you have +12V (battery voltage) between there and ground when you press the brake pedal (vehicle ON).
@ScottnAZ I think many US owners are following your feedback on this. Does your violet/orange wire provide +12V when the brake pedal is pressed?

If you read the earlier Redarc EBDK-030 Grenadier installation kit instructions, the kit includes a wire tap to connect to the brake light signal at pin #6 of the trailer socket. There is no reference in those instructions to tapping a signal wire under the seat. I suspect this kit was issued before integrated wiring was included for NA MY24 vehicles. Redarc and other EBC manufacturers recommend you take the brake light trigger signal close to the trailer socket. This has been the only reliable way for the EBC to sense ALL brake activations and trailer brake light illuminations; including driver, ABS, ESC, Trailer Sway Control, etc.
This method may be superceded by integrated wiring in the Grenadier (and Quartermaster) but clearly the under seat violet/orange wire method is not working for everyone.

View attachment 7866203

You can't use pin6 because that is also right turn signal. There technically is no dedicated brake light on the NA 7pin connector. Would have to be an AND with pin1

 

[anand]

You can't use pin6 because that is also right turn signal. There technically is no dedicated brake light on the NA 7pin connector. Would have to be an AND with pin1

There is however, dedicated brake light input into the TRM in the passenger rear of the vehicle

 

[pernsdorff]

Got a reply from Elliott Bay today:

I heard back from INEOS' lead tech, here's what he told me:

"There is no signal at the trailer brake wire. I would recommend getting the signal from the center high-mounted brake light until there is a factory solution. There is not an ETA from the engineers for this solution as of yet."

I can't believe they released vehicles with wiring for a trailer brake controller but didn't think they should include a signal to the brakes.....

Looks like I'll follow @Clark Kent 's suggestion....Thanks Clark

Well, using the center brake light was my next best option, but, was waiting on a better solution - brake light it is. The problem though is that RedArc wanted to also use this signal to trigger brake lights if you manually engage trailer brake .

Good research from everyone, but, big fail from Ineos

 

[pernsdorff]

There is however, dedicated brake light input into the TRM in the passenger rear of the vehicle

I meant to ask TRM but forgot , you have details on where and which wire?

 

[LeeroyJ]

These recent posts have me scratching my head -- I just did 3000 miles pulling a ~6500 trailer and it definitely felt like the break control was working (even though the light on the redarc controller continues to blink long green short blue). Adjusting the gain makes a difference when breaking and I would think that would not be the case if it was not getting a signal. I connected mine using only the wires under the seat.

 

[anand]

I meant to ask TRM but forgot , you have details on where and which wire?

I don't, but it is fairly easy to trace the "input" side and "output" sides of the harness, and a couple minutes with a test light will get you your answer

 

[pernsdorff]

These recent posts have me scratching my head -- I just did 3000 miles pulling a ~6500 trailer and it definitely felt like the break control was working (even though the light on the redarc controller continues to blink long green short blue). Adjusting the gain makes a difference when breaking and I would think that would not be the case if it was not getting a signal. I connected mine using only the wires under the seat.

That blink pattern is the hint that it hasn't been able to learn detection of brake signal.

 

[LeeroyJ]

That blink pattern is the hint that it hasn't been able to learn detection of brake signal.

Yeah but then I would expect it to not be working, right? It seems to still be working. That's what confuses me.

 

[pernsdorff]

Yeah but then I would expect it to not be working, right? It seems to still be working. That's what confuses me.

I ran into same thing which is why started digging in to the technical details. Hate to say it but it likely is not actually doing anything.

I will post details on TRM to see if better signal there although I suspect the input will be same as that wire under seat. Most likely have to use an output from TRM

 

[pernsdorff]

Yeah but then I would expect it to not be working, right? It seems to still be working. That's what confuses me.

Btw, if you did full gain and had RedArc to only use gain setting, I would expect you to be dragging a wheel when brake applied - another confirmation. Just like if you manually press the brake controller should lock up wheel on full gain. Of course depends on brake power on trailer.