Letter to Lynne Calder

[Dawid Potgieter]

OK. Here it is..

Thank you. You will never be able to please everyone. This is a good start. How do we sign?

 

[Tom D]

Thank you. You will never be able to please everyone. This is a good start. How do we sign?

I think @Stu_Barnes is going to build something on the back end of the Forum. I will refer the IA management team to the forum where they can see the responses. Although as has already been pointed out they may have read this thread and the letter by now anyway.

 

[255/85]

@Tom D,

I would cut the sentence "Most of the negative comment..." from paragraph three. The final sentence of the paragraph says it all.

I would have summarized points 2. and 3. and left out specific personal experiences. Those can be listed if asked for. 2a, 2b, and 2c. are fine as are 3a. and 3b.

Regarding possible legal action against Ineos by members here or the public at large is difficult to express without some hostility (@CrazyOldMan) or threat. Both seem slightly present to me but this may be the result of nuanced differences between American English and Mother-tongue English.

Overall I am quite happy with your effort and will sign when asked. Thank you.

 

[ADVAW8S]

People, I love the idea, my suggestion is let A.I. write the message/letter/email. Save yourself time and effort. Put the main question, prompt it to be kind buy firm.

My wife and I now have turned to A.I. to handle majority of our messaging and it has been a homerun

 

[ryket]

My 0.02... I would cut it down to two pages max. Keep it punchy and factual otherwise it risks being seen as entitled whining (I know it's not).

I don't know if I would say that buyers "risked our own capital" - we're not investors in the company and we all got a (mostly) working car for our money.

I wouldn't use AI to draft the final version as it will look much less genuine.

 

[bigleonski]

My 2c
Firstly I’m doubtful this will achieve much, but I hope I’m wrong.
Letter content - too much, too much, too much.
For example no business is going to give you details around their strategy for fixing issues so don’t ask for it.
If you want this to get any attention keep the body less than a page long.
And I’m guessing if you asked the regional IA heads what we are having issues with, they would all give you the issues raised, so I doubt anything here is new to anyone at IA.
At best I would expect some motherhood statement answer saying we are doing what we can.
Oh, and telling them you expect a response within 14 days? It’s not a legal demand letter but a good will reach out isn’t it? That sets the tone right there and the response is likely to be reciprocal.

I get that this post seems somewhat critical and the likely response from some is well if you think you can do better……
Sorry but I’d have a go if I thought it would make a difference but I wouldn’t have written it in the first place. My view, clearly different to others so maybe I should have kept out of it, but there you go.

Good luck with it regardless.

 

[Tazzieman]

I'm happy, not aggrieved with my 1sr generation Ineos after 18 months ownership.
I won't sign any letter that has an aggressive tone , as it were.

 

[IslandFalconer]

In general I like it and I would sign it. The opening of how “you love the vehicle” isn’t necessarily reflective of a group signed letter. If this letter is to represent a group consensus than it shouldn’t involve your personal feelings. Stick to the facts.

 

[Zimm]

I read the letter. It’s fine for what it is.
Of course, they already know all of this. The dealers want the business so you’re not getting manuals for quite some time if at all, and the service center thing for warranty work, in the US at least, doesn’t seem feasible. There just isn’t enough business to entice anyone, and cost control would seem impossible.

Low volume / low (no) profit =‘s low parts inventory.

There are your answers.

 

[Rab]

Agree that the letter is fine.
However, we know INEOS follow the forum, so they already know what the letter content would be before it was written. If they wanted to resolve the issues quickly it would already have been done.
My gut says Sir Jim has got what he wanted and has moved on.
To balance this I am quite content with 20 months of ownership, it tows well, my hvac works, it generates an unusual amount of interest, the vey occasional software hiccup resolves itself and I have a very good local dealer.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I read the letter. It’s fine for what it is.
Of course, they already know all of this. The dealers want the business so you’re not getting manuals for quite some time if at all, and the service center thing for warranty work, in the US at least, doesn’t seem feasible. There just isn’t enough business to entice anyone, and cost control would seem impossible.

Low volume / low (no) profit =‘s low parts inventory.

There are your answers.

I do this in medtech in dealer and direct markets - I have warranty kits and protocols, and the dealer margin covers those services - they have to use my service CRM to document the work and scan the kit parts so I have traceability for recalls and warranty coverage for manufacturing defects. In markets with spotty distribution, I use forward stock locations and dealers and subs get their parts from the FSL’s - or I drop-ship to the customer. This is totally, 100% solvable - I’m in China, Australia, EU, Africa, Middle East, Brazil - you name it, I can have a tech with the right parts in 24-48 hours. And I think the dealer would RATHER have robust sales - they’re probably not really making money on service.

 

[Zimm]

I don’t know what all medtech does exactly, but if it’s like Leica or seimans or whatnot, and you have reagent streams as revenue, that isnt like a car dealership business. They make 70% of their profit outside of the car sale and they want that repair and warranty business, especially after investing in a brick and mortar location. Repair IS the reagent. The last thing RDS phili wants is a Pittsburgh service center. You also need to train up techs for the service, and the count of rigs right now in my county is about 5.

This is not a volume rig, and never will be. Toyota moves parts, and has regional warehousing. This does not. I believe someone in management very may have well thought like you do now, and found the automobile dealership sales model slightly different. I just don’t see a letter changing this dynamic any time soon. They already know what the complaints are.

 

[Tazzieman]

This is not a volume rig, and never will be. Toyota moves parts, and has regional warehousing. This does not. I believe someone in management very may have well thought like you do now, and found the automobile dealership sales model slightly different. I just don’t see a letter changing this dynamic any time soon. They already know what the complaints are.

"You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes, well, you just might find
You get what you need"

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I don’t know what all medtech does exactly, but if it’s like Leica or seimans or whatnot, and you have reagent streams as revenue, that isnt like a car dealership business. They make 70% of their profit outside of the car sale and they want that repair and warranty business, especially after investing in a brick and mortar location. Repair IS the reagent. The last thing RDS phili wants is a Pittsburgh service center. You also need to train up techs for the service, and the count of rigs right now in my county is about 5.

This is not a volume rig, and never will be. Toyota moves parts, and has regional warehousing. This does not. I believe someone in management very may have well thought like you do now, and found the automobile dealership sales model slightly different. I just don’t see a letter changing this dynamic any time soon. They already know what the complaints are.

I would need to see numbers - given the volumes, I am guessing dealers are running close to break-even on service and parts (yes, the parts are expensive but I think they are washing overhead costs). Again - I think the dealers THOUGHT they would top up margins on service - but if they could get, say, a 20% lift on orders because service wasn’t a barrier to purchase, they would waive whatever regional non-competes on service they might have in their dealer agreement. This is all speculation- I would need to see the contract and the data - which I’m sure Ineos are just DYING to give us ;o). But yes, I think there is a way forward to an open service network that isn’t ruinous to Ineos and will make the dealers more money.

I’ve been with companies where consumables (like reagents) provided a recurring revenue stream, but my current company is pretty much like the automotive market - equipment, parts, service. Some markets with distributors, some direct/direct, some direct with subs. But the biggest with distributors.

 

[Tom D]

I have already sent the letter as it was. We were never going to get agreement on the final wording so forgive me for not redrafting it again and again.
I don’t think it is too firm or aggressive. I meant what I said about loving the car and also about the positivity of the forum. I know that other owners have written much more strongly worded letters to IA in the past. I’m sure they have thick enough skins to take the message on board without taking offence.
We may well not get answers to all the points raised in the letter but there was no harm in asking.

I think that IA don't realise what a great resource they have in this forum, if they did they would engage more. Most of us owners have experienced the comments at the fuel pump from other drivers asking about the Grenadier, each person we talk to is another potential buyer. Then there’s those buyers who are on the fence who come on here looking for a bit more info… they normally get a positive response too. I wonder how many others have read content on here without ever posting?

If the only thing we get out of this is an answer on the workshop manual that will still be a massive positive.

We’ll see what happens.

 

[Tom D]

I have had confirmation from INEOS that they have received the letter. So thats the first hurdle cleared.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I have already sent the letter as it was. We were never going to get agreement on the final wording so forgive me for not redrafting it again and again.
I don’t think it is to firm or aggressive. I meant what I said about loving the car and also about the positivity of the forum. I know that other owners have written much more strongly worded letters to IA in the past. I’m sure they have thick enough skins to take the message on board without taking offence.
We may well not get answers to all the points raised in the letter but there was no harm in asking.

I think that IA don't realise what a great resource they have in this forum, if they did they would engage more. Most of us owners have experienced the comments at the fuel pump from other drivers asking about the Grenadier, each person we talk to is another potential buyer. Then there’s those buyers who are on the fence who come on here looking for a bit more info… they normally get a positive response too. I wonder how many others have read content on here without ever posting?

If the only thing we get out of this is an answer on the workshop manual that will still be a massive positive.

We’ll see what happens.

It’s all good - we appreciate you and the fact you took the lead. Some of us might have taken a different direction, but that would be the case with any letter. The general vibe is the same across the community- if they can figure out a way where it’s easier to service, it makes ownership dramatically simpler and less risky - and will pull in hesitant prospective buyers off the sidelines. Service and spare parts are their top barrier to sales. You got that point across the line.

 

[PDX_Keith]

Agree that the letter is fine.
However, we know INEOS follow the forum, so they already know what the letter content would be before it was written. If they wanted to resolve the issues quickly it would already have been done.
My gut says Sir Jim has got what he wanted and has moved on.
To balance this I am quite content with 20 months of ownership, it tows well, my hvac works, it generates an unusual amount of interest, the vey occasional software hiccup resolves itself and I have a very good local dealer.

Agreed and well said but my personal point of frustration and why I cannot recommend the car to those that ask revolves around two very fundamental points that are clearly being side stepped and not addressed. This is that personal or non-dealer support for long term ownership requires a repair manual and off-the-shelf scanner access. Requires, not optional. After the tenure this vehicle has been on the market, not addressing these two fundamental aspects is starting to feel very egregious and nefarious.

 

[PDX_Keith]

@Tom D I appreciate you and your efforts and dedication. Hats off. If we ever cross paths, a pint or glass of you favorite beverage is on me.