Grenadier vs 2024 Land Cruiser

[Tom109]

There is a lot of talk about the extra mass of the Grenadier, but has anyone stopped to consider where it is and why?

Check out the axels, the (wax filled) chassis, feel those body panels.

This is a valid concern. Modern cars have very thin skin adorned with curves, flares, and swedging - to enhance aerodynamics and improve rigidity. This is all fine and dandy until a tree brach smacks it, or you hit a log (rock!). While I haven’t abused my Gren in this manner (yet), I do hope it will fare better than the thin skinned Honda also sitting in my driveway.

 

[Ragman]

Funny the LC200 engineered for what, 250k mi life couldn’t be given away here. Now the less robust little brother comes here and the dealers mark it up to LC200 prices and people are supposed to climb over themselves to pay to buy one. Strange world we live in. I am hoping/expecting the Grenadier to be engineered to LC300 standards.

Call me a hopeless optimist.

 

[2wheelfish]

There is a design check box list, some items on the list are diametrically opposed, each choice impacts another and often times you cannot tick both. Which is the one you want. To me, they ticked the right boxes

Material selection is always a compromise between weight, cost and strength - Pick only two. Beyond the heavy undercarriage components the grenadier did some unique things by using heavier gauge aluminum for many body panels trying to gain strength at a lower weight penalty with a higher cost. I’m sure this was a compromise to afford the heavy axles and suspension. From what I’ve seen, the body of the Gren is way more substantial feeling than the rather lightweight feeling new Toyota and Lexus. While it will withstand more, I wonder if that aluminum can be straightened out as easily as steel. But damn, the Gren feels like a car from another era, in the best possible way.

 

[255/85]

Apropos of not much, but since we were comparing, I was curious about the last true work SUV in the US. Looking I think that was the 2014 3/4 ton Yukon . 6400 curb weight, 10000lg towing, 2500lb payload, gas sucking v8 which looks oddly close to the gren in mpg. hm. :/

These have been on my radar for the reason you mention. Slightly earlier models are dirt cheap and people are now doing solid axle swaps on them. Fully outfitted to tackle Armageddon I think you'd be lucky to get 10mpg in the gasoline versions.

 

[Zimm]

There is a lot of talk about the extra mass of the Grenadier, but has anyone stopped to consider where it is and why?

Check out the axels, the (wax filled) chassis, feel those body panels. These are all larger, heavier components than the other tin cans on wheels irrespect of ability, that weight is a level of toughness we wanted. But obviously it comes at a price.

There is a design check box list, some items on the list are diametrically opposed, each choice impacts another and often times you cannot tick both. Which is the one you want. To me, they ticked the right boxes

But is it a tin can? Or is the ineos a chunky chick? If I take my 1/2 ton f150 pickup, and put the dana 90 in my f350 under it, just to keep the same 1700 pound load capacity, will it be more durable? If I put 1500 pounds in a f150 and 1500 in an f350, will the f350 actually last longer?

To be purposeful weight needs to be reflected in something that can do more than, or last longer than, otherwise it superfluous. As far as what we wanted, well, I wanted an evolution of the original defender, and the last original 110 was 4300 pounds with up to 2000lb plus load rating. Like an architectural prof once told me. Anyone can design a big house with an unlimited budget. Small, efficient, and cheap takes skill.

 

[Zimm]

This is a valid concern. Modern cars have very thin skin adorned with curves, flares, and swedging - to enhance aerodynamics and improve rigidity. This is all fine and dandy until a tree brach smacks it, or you hit a log (rock!). While I haven’t abused my Gren in this manner (yet), I do hope it will fare better than the thin skinned Honda also sitting in my driveway.

Aluminum has no metal memory, and if damage repair is a concern it is more expensive to work with. The wavy lines and gouges were part of the defender charm.

 

[LC0013]

But is it a tin can? Or is the ineos a chunky chick? If I take my 1/2 ton f150 pickup, and put the dana 90 in my f350 under it, just to keep the same 1700 pound load capacity, will it be more durable? If I put 1500 pounds in a f150 and 1500 in an f350, will the f350 actually last longer?

To be purposeful weight needs to be reflected in something that can do more than, or last longer than, otherwise it superfluous. As far as what we wanted, well, I wanted an evolution of the original defender, and the last original 110 was 4300 pounds with up to 2000lb plus load rating. Like an architectural prof once told me. Anyone can design a big house with an unlimited budget. Small, efficient, and cheap takes skill.

Sounds like you want a skinny chick with big hips and, unfortunately, it appears that Ineos missed your expectations. Hope you find what you want though.

 

[bmore_burnsy]

Towing capacity is a whopping 6,000 pounds.

I cannot tell whether that's sarcasm. I'm going to guess yes, based on comparison to the Grenadier (7,700 lb) and the GX550 (9,000 lb).

Again, a comparison of a SUV with a UV. It's not the same. Other purpose and other market in my opinion. ... I need a workhorse, not a fancy yuppie car or mall crawler.

I think you're spot on that the GX550 and Grenadier are different animals. But I'd argue that the Gren is both a workhorse and a fancy yuppie car, at least in the States. Most tradespeople here drive pickups and cargo vans, not $80k niche 4x4s.

Sadly, I cancelled my Gren pre-order after taking my wife on an on-road test drive. Between the steering, lack of creature comforts, and wind noise at speed, she hated the ride despite loving the styling. So perhaps I am one of the few who is begrudgingly eyeing the GX550 as the-next-best-thing to a Gren in the U.S. market. All the luxury comforts my wife wants, 9,000 lb towing capacity, and center and rear e-lockers. Does it look at good as the Gren? No. Can it handle as much as the Gren? No. But will my wife allow me to buy it? Yes.

 

[Tom109]

Aluminum has no metal memory, and if damage repair is a concern it is more expensive to work with. The wavy lines and gouges were part of the defender charm.

Not fixing per se, but resistance to damage. My LR skins have faired pretty well compared to my Japanese counterparts.

 

[Zimm]

Not fixing per se, but resistance to damage. My LR skins have faired pretty well compared to my Japanese counterparts.

Cant say I've had the same experience. I had to be much more careful with the Defender. Small dings in steel pop out.

 

[255/85]

But is it a tin can? Or is the ineos a chunky chick? If I take my 1/2 ton f150 pickup, and put the dana 90 in my f350 under it, just to keep the same 1700 pound load capacity, will it be more durable? If I put 1500 pounds in a f150 and 1500 in an f350, will the f350 actually last longer?

Yes, it will.

The differential components you're switching out are leveling the field in terms of ring & pinion life. You're also spreading the load at the hubs over two bearings in the FF Dana 90 v. a single wheel bearing in the standard F150 axle. But that's not the end of the story. Half ton truck frames do not hold up to the tremendous abuse you can throw at a 3/4 or 1 ton. Or at an F450/550. Then there's the transmission, transfer case, driveshafts, wheels, steering components, and more all of which will be, in some way, stronger and last longer in the HD trucks.

Designers can "optimize" structures for greater capacity when used under textbook conditions and shave weight here or there. Unfortunately vehicles used in demanding off-highway conditions do not adhere to the model. The only option is to hedge bets and add some beef to minimize the failure rate - which for Ineos must be kept low compared to volume manufacturers.

To be purposeful weight needs to be reflected in something that can do more than, or last longer than, otherwise it superfluous. As far as what we wanted, well, I wanted an evolution of the original defender, and the last original 110 was 4300 pounds with up to 2000lb plus load rating. Like an architectural prof once told me. Anyone can design a big house with an unlimited budget. Small, efficient, and cheap takes skill.

Or just compromises.

Big budgets do not guarantee success. But you do need enough money to avoid failure. Cheap simply begets cheap with either short life span or crudeness the end result.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I am incredibly excited about this new land cruiser for two reasons.

First - it's an incredibly compelling adventure vehicle. The payload specs are really great, and it's a Land Cruiser which implies it will be reasonably robust and tough. It will not be as tough as the Gren probably based on weight of components alone, but "not as tough" is very different from "not tough enough" and I don't think anyone would say a vehicle bearing the Land Cruiser label is "not tough enough" for global travel and adventures. It likely will not be "tough enough" for commercial uses, which the Gren has on lockdown in the Wagon space, but the majority of buyers of both vehicles will be "lifestyle" buyers, not commercial ones, and I suspect that the new LC will be a compelling alternative for many to the Gren, especially with the $20k savings in MSRP.

Second - because the new LC is so good and has that je ne sais quois of "Land Cruiser" slapped on the front, there's going to be a whole bunch of folks who wanted the latest and greatest thing getting rid of their Grens to scoop up the new LC250. That means more Grens on used car lots which means I'm more likely to get one sooner rather than later. Thank you to Mr. Toyota for holding off on releasing this until after folks were fully committed to their Grenadier contracts, I owe you a beer.

 

[Tazzieman]

Don't get one of the creepy ones!

 

[Max]

Don't get one of the creepy ones!

Creepy and looks creepy, like a snarling bulldog with squinty eyes

 

[Zimm]

I am incredibly excited about this new land cruiser for two reasons.

First - it's an incredibly compelling adventure vehicle. The payload specs are really great, and it's a Land Cruiser which implies it will be reasonably robust and tough. It will not be as tough as the Gren probably based on weight of components alone, but "not as tough" is very different from "not tough enough" and I don't think anyone would say a vehicle bearing the Land Cruiser label is "not tough enough" for global travel and adventures. It likely will not be "tough enough" for commercial uses, which the Gren has on lockdown in the Wagon space, but the majority of buyers of both vehicles will be "lifestyle" buyers, not commercial ones, and I suspect that the new LC will be a compelling alternative for many to the Gren, especially with the $20k savings in MSRP.

Second - because the new LC is so good and has that je ne sais quois of "Land Cruiser" slapped on the front, there's going to be a whole bunch of folks who wanted the latest and greatest thing getting rid of their Grens to scoop up the new LC250. That means more Grens on used car lots which means I'm more likely to get one sooner rather than later. Thank you to Mr. Toyota for holding off on releasing this until after folks were fully committed to their Grenadier contracts, I owe you a beer.

SUV's arent really used in NA for commercial purposes, and the rest of the world gets the Landcruiser 70 series, which will remain the "goto" rig in places where reliability, robustness, fuel mileage, and range matter. It ain't a purdy series, but it's a better design.

 

[[ Adam ]]

SUV's arent really used in NA for commercial purposes

Agreed - commercial shoppers are looking for something like a Ford Transit, Chevy Express or Nissan NV. Heck, I see more Mercedes Sprinters doing work than all SUV's combined.

 

[DrahthHunter]

As the date for my Greny gets pushed back further and further the LC looks like more of a possibility. The Toyota dependability is a great selling point against a truck with no real track record. The looks with some old school style mods are arguably better than the Ineos. And with cheaper price tag loaded with bells and whistles it’s starts getting hard to sell myself that the Ineos is worth it. But it really doesn’t matter because neither are ever going to get here. It’s going to come down to which one comes first. Your guess is as good as mine.

Why is it getting pushed back?

 

[LC0013]

Agreed - commercial shoppers are looking for something like a Ford Transit, Chevy Express or Nissan NV. Heck, I see more Mercedes Sprinters doing work than all SUV's combined.

They sure aren't using Land Cruisers.

 

[Greni80]

Why is it getting pushed back?

No answer. Just an email from
The dealer stating that I was going into production in February but now it will be July

 

[ADVAW8S]

No answer. Just an email from
The dealer stating that I was going into production in February but now it will be July

It would be worth, saying to dealer push it to the 2025 model but keep it at 2024 price. If mine gets pushed back, that is the way I'm going to go or ask for Quartermaster with chicken tax an all.