CTEK SMARTPASS 120S and 250SE DC to DC charger basic features and install information

[CB]

Thanks @DaveB I'm pretty sure every one who has specced and bought a Grenadier knows this. I wanted a dual battery setup, as does everyone that did select the second battery option

It does not however appear to be what we have got. Nor is it what we thought we were getting, and this is the rub. As is evident in this thread. The information was either lacking to enable a proper decision, or the system has been poorly implemented. Or both.

Now, why when we question/comment on reasoning or dissatisfaction, is there always this response, "well you didnt have to chose it"? (Translation shut up, stop whinging) Who does that help and what does it contribute to the conversation

My point is relevant and my opinion as valid as yours.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I believe, in order to get the auxiliary switches, the auxiliary battery option must be selected. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[CB]

I will correct myself. It can be ordered with the auxiliary switches without the battery when configuring the base vehicle.

 

[bigleonski]

No, it doesn't mean shut up........
It means that a lot of people on here who wanted a second battery system made the decision not to order it and go with an aftermarket system that they have experience with or a good understanding of.
If there was uncertainty about how it worked and what you get then don't order it.
That was my point.
If you order the Trialmaster you get it as standard
If you order the Fieldmaster now you cant option it at all.
You could when I ordered mine and I did.
You still have the option of starting from scratch and building the vehicle to your own spec.
We were all made aware of this clause before ordering so absolutely nothing was 100% set in stone.
View attachment 7825336

Sorry @DaveB but I'm on @K1LL3M side on this one.

Most people I would assume (and I could be wrong) who elected to take the Aux Battery setup from Ineos as I did when ordering a Trialmaster, worked on the assumption (silly them) that they would get an traditional isolated Aux Battery set up that was built by Ineos to suit the rest of the vehicle, save them having to go to their local auto electrician, match up with the additional switch gear, and get a factory warranty.
This sounded fantastic, albeit not being lithium. I certainly thought that was a great option in the Trialmaster. I even discussed this with Ineos reps on drive days and following that took the chance.

It would appear that what this is is a backup battery for the starter so it can run aux systems. But who the hell would actually know? Ineos don't seem to be able to provide accurate details, nor do half the dealers by all accounts, and there are no instructions provided by Ineos for the effective use of a factory supplied item.
If it wasn't for this forum and dedicated members who are prepared to pull it apart, most "non tech" minded owners would just flounder in the dark, or take it to their auto electrician and have to pay him to work it out - something that this option should have negated in the first place.

Ineos have provided a number of electrical options for the Australian market that I'm sorry to say aren't fit for purpose for the Australian market - Aux Battery not being a proper isolated dual battery system, extra power points hidden and not finished that dealers don't even know the whereabouts to, Nato plug not even being connected unless you take a winch, 13 pin Euro plug not common in this market and missing three connections. We all paid for them in good faith, but none of them do the job out of the box without having to visit a sparky.

So I see why many people are disappointed. Rant over.

 

[AnD3rew]

Sorry @DaveB but I'm on @K1LL3M side on this one.

Most people I would assume (and I could be wrong) who elected to take the Aux Battery setup from Ineos as I did when ordering a Trialmaster, worked on the assumption (silly them) that they would get an traditional isolated Aux Battery set up that was built by Ineos to suit the rest of the vehicle, save them having to go to their local auto electrician, match up with the additional switch gear, and get a factory warranty.
This sounded fantastic, albeit not being lithium. I certainly thought that was a great option in the Trialmaster. I even discussed this with Ineos reps on drive days and following that took the chance.

It would appear that what this is is a backup battery for the starter so it can run aux systems. But who the hell would actually know? Ineos don't seem to be able to provide accurate details, nor do half the dealers by all accounts, and there are no instructions provided by Ineos for the effective use of a factory supplied item.
If it wasn't for this forum and dedicated members who are prepared to pull it apart, most "non tech" minded owners would just flounder in the dark, or take it to their auto electrician and have to pay him to work it out - something that this option should have negated in the first place.

Ineos have provided a number of electrical options for the Australian market that I'm sorry to say aren't fit for purpose for the Australian market - Aux Battery not being a proper isolated dual battery system, extra power points hidden and not finished that dealers don't even know the whereabouts to, Nato plug not even being connected unless you take a winch, 13 pin Euro plug not common in this market and missing three connections. We all paid for them in good faith, but none of them do the job out of the box without having to visit a sparky.

So I see why many people are pi%^ed off. Rant over.

I wouldn’t say I am pissed off, but I am disappointed that they missed the mark so far on what Would be appropriate for the Australian market. I am sure I can make it all work to suit my needs. But it will need some work from me and my auto sparky to do that, which is something I initially thought I would be able to avoid.

 

[bigleonski]

I wouldn’t say I am pissed off, but I am disappointed that they missed the mark so far on what Would be appropriate for the Australian market. I am sure I can make it all work to suit my needs. But it will need some work from me and my auto sparky to do that, which is something I initially thought I would be able to avoid.

Agreed - will amend my post.

 

[Greg]

i opted out of the Aux Battery for a number of reasons

• I started from a base model and i only added things i really needed/wanted - there were a number of things on the Trialmaster I didn't want.
• I couldn't get my head around what was being offered from the factory
• there are plenty of auto electricians in Aus with experience in setting up dual battery systems
• the battery compartment under the rear seats has a space for a second battery - even when you don't option it
• the starter battery and alternator feed is right there so very short cable runs
• choice of my own components
• I can choose what to move to the aux battery from the starter battery once i figure out what i want to power
• For me, at least for the next few years, the aux battery will only be used for over night and weekend use - so small fridge, induction stove, a few lights

 

[DaveB]

i opted out of the Aux Battery for a number of reasons

• I started from a base model and i only added things i really needed/wanted - there were a number of things on the Trialmaster I didn't want.
• I couldn't get my head around what was being offered from the factory
• there are plenty of auto electricians in Aus with experience in setting up dual battery systems
• the battery compartment under the rear seats has a space for a second battery - even when you don't option it
• the starter battery and alternator feed is right there so very short cable runs
• choice of my own components
• I can choose what to move to the aux battery from the starter battery once i figure out what i want to power
• For me, at least for the next few years, the aux battery will only be used for over night and weekend use - so small fridge, induction stove, a few lights

I only wanted it to support a fridge in the back running off the existing 12 v outlet on the left wheel arch.
I don't plan on towing anything except maybe a small boat
I also plan on using the outputs on the roof for work lights and the ones under the bonnet for fog/driving lights.
So the auxiliary battery was just to support the main battery for starting.
All the comments on here early on were that keen overlanders/campers were going to go lithium with a redarc or similar system.
There were mountains of discussions about LifeP04 being the way to go not standard lead/acid as supplied by Ineos.
pretty much your points

 

[DCPU]

I've received a reply from our technical department:
"Maintenance charging function of the starter battery has changed parameters so as not to interfere with the operation of the car.

Without any details it's impossible to impart any real meaning to this statement. It could just mean they've been installed with the smart alternator cable unattached.

Also, the temperature sensor is adapted to the vehicle."

Well I think we all have this ~ if it's referring to it being heatshrunk to an M8 ring connector and then attached to the negative terminal of the battery.

@Jean Mercier ~ it's excellent that you've managed to get an answer with any substance.

From my experience writing to numerous Grenadier suppliers, the commonest reply is no reply at all, then one level up is a reply but with a statement that any information is bound by a confidentially agreement.

Is it worth a follow up email and see if they will expand on what the changed parameters actually are; and confirm the temperature sensor adaptions are just what we see ~ the heatshrink/ring connector. I'd also be curious to know if this is done for production line practicalities rather than any functional related issue.

 

[Joey]

Sorry if this is a dumb question: Can you reverse the polarity on one of the roof points to accept solar? Changing end points etc.

 

[DCPU]

It would appear that what this is is a backup battery for the starter so it can run aux systems. But who the hell would actually know? Ineos don't seem to be able to provide accurate details, nor do half the dealers by all accounts, and there are no instructions provided by Ineos for the effective use of a factory supplied item.

I think there may be a clear divide between people who have the full retail spec Smartpass and the version now apparently being fitted.

Isn't there enough people who have plumbed things into the consumer outlet terminal to confirm it does what it should, perhaps not with absolute proof of the low voltage cut off.

And people are always free to add whatever power draws thay want direct off the auxiliary battery.

Us early adopters got full CTEK retail manuals which are OK if you read it often enough and get your head around it's functionality.

So why has Ineos introduced what looks like a down spec'd version?

I think a cost engineer has been involved. There seems to be evidence in other areas also. A combination of new management, delays causing profit & loss issues, general material cost inflation, has either caused Ineos to go back to CTEK wanting sharper pricing or CTEK have requested a substantial price increase.

CTEK may well have responded by offering to cut/maintain prices with a reduced function box.

Again all guesswork, but it's stuff I've seen first hand in my professional life.

 

[Jean Mercier]

Without any details it's impossible to impart any real meaning to this statement. It could just mean they've been installed with the smart alternator cable unattached.

Is it worth a follow up email ..

I agree the information is vague, but at least it is "something ". I still hope to get some answer from Ineos through my dealer.

I don't think that CTEK will give more information, indeed due to confidentiality. In fact, "we" are not their customers, INEOS is, and INEOS should answer us. Shame they don't.

 

[Tomdoc]

I got the second battery to allow me to run some relatively high-powered HF radios and also full in the knowledge that I was going to add the 250SE module to allow solar power. Radios are always run straight from the battery in order to minimise RF interference from other systems so the set-up is fine for me. What I could do now is use the 250SE to charge a third battery with solar if I install a switch into the system - there is room under the compartment for an additional LiFePo battery for just this option.

 

[bakepl]

Sorry if this is a dumb question: Can you reverse the polarity on one of the roof points to accept solar? Changing end points etc.

Interesting concept and not dissimilar in some respects to charging the vehicle from the 13 pin trailer plug... but fraught with some danger perhaps without a diagram. You would need to have some sort of solar controller external to the vehicle so as to regulate the voltage going in to the car from the solar panel... then ?? I've taken the track (plan to shortly at least) of running a new cable from the external DT-P 25amp plug in the roof directly to the solar input of a newly fitted Ctek 250SE (solar controller/dc to dc). Perhaps someone out there has already done as you suggested?

 

[255/85]

Its bewildering why Ineos complicated this so much. It appears the 2nd battery is more an extension battery not an accessory battery.

I think you've answered your own question here.

Indeed it seems Ineos' priority was starting the vehicle under as many conditions as possible given that they were required to have Start/Stop capable drivetrains. The choice of dual EF batteries seem to bear this out. Isn't the ability to get the vehicle moving the number one priority in an "adventure" vehicle? Having so many powered functions (door locks, windows, etc) also adds to the demand for a guaranteed engine start in any setting. I realize this is not the dual battery system everyone assumed was being offered but I now see the point.

I wonder if there is software related to the second battery ie if we pull the Ctek unit will we run into trouble with software.

The software itself is a continuous drain on the starting battery even when the vehicle is not running and lowered battery voltage seems to be somewhat responsible for some of the software issues. This problem likely surfaced during preliminary testing and Ineos was faced with the choice of a true isolated dual battery set-up or what they've delivered. I doubt they had any desire to spec a third deep cycle battery with the attendant payload reduction and fuel mileage penalty.

Does anyone with the single battery setup Have pictures of differences? Is it just missing the Ctek and connection.

Several threads have shown images of both systems. As I remember a lot depends on the other options selected - i.e. - having the high load switch panel or not, having winches or not, etc. Some single battery systems don't have the second Littlefuse box and some do. What I seem to remember is that everything hangs off the primary battery except the 2nd battery which requires the Ctek box.

 

[255/85]

I got the second battery to allow me to run some relatively high-powered HF radios and also full in the knowledge that I was going to add the 250SE module to allow solar power. Radios are always run straight from the battery in order to minimise RF interference from other systems so the set-up is fine for me. What I could do now is use the 250SE to charge a third battery with solar if I install a switch into the system - there is room under the compartment for an additional LiFePo battery for just this option.

Or implement the third battery option outlined in the recent videos by Tinkerer's Adventure...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHL9gbwNV-k

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_-9vj-hF1M

 

[255/85]

I think there may be a clear divide between people who have the full retail spec Smartpass and the version now apparently being fitted.

So why has Ineos introduced what looks like a down spec'd version?

I think a cost engineer has been involved. There seems to be evidence in other areas also. A combination of new management, delays causing profit & loss issues, general material cost inflation, has either caused Ineos to go back to CTEK wanting sharper pricing or CTEK have requested a substantial price increase.

I honestly don't think that's the case though it initially appears like that. I think it is really just the priority (or necessity) to maintain the starting capability of the vehicle vs running consumers. Draining the second battery with a fridge or and induction cooktop would be counter to that. Early adopters may have been misled a good bit as to what they were ordering or perhaps Ineos hadn't quite come to grips with the dilemma but the reduced spec Ctek box now makes one thing absolutely clear (to me at least):

Install your own deep cycle battery system.

 

[ECrider]

Above and beyond from Ctek in my book. Come home to these;

 

[CB]

If Ineos's rational for having a second battery is to provide redundancy/ a backup for the starting battery because the electronics drain the starting battery even when the vehicle is off, then why is the second battery an option! IMHO a dual battery isolator switch, like those found on boats and RVs, would have been a much simpler solution. I have owned several boats having as many as 4 batteries (1 starting and 3 accessory) all being charged at sea by the alternator on the outboard engine and never had a problem. It would be nice to be able to turn off both batteries if the vehicle will be sitting for a few days which appears, in some cases, to be sufficient time to drain the starting battery. The switch will be used to select whether battery 1, 2 or both will be used to start the vehicle.

 

[DCPU]

I honestly don't think that's the case though it initially appears like that. I think it is really just the priority (or necessity) to maintain the starting capability of the vehicle vs running consumers. Draining the second battery with a fridge or and induction cooktop would be counter to that.

Removing the consumer output from the Smartpass just removes the function of the low voltage cutoff; owners will always have the option of wiring directly off the auxiliary battery.

So perversely, if the intention/priority is to maintain the starting capability of the vehicle, removing the consumer output (with it's built in low voltage protection) does the opposite.

Early adopters may have been misled a good bit as to what they were ordering

I think the complete lack of detail means many things were a punt in the dark.

 

[255/85]

If Ineos's rational for having a second battery is to provide redundancy/ a backup for the starting battery because the electronics drain the starting battery even when the vehicle is off, then why is the second battery an option! IMHO a dual battery isolator switch, like those found on boats and RVs, would have been a much simpler solution. I have owned several boats having as many as 4 batteries (1 starting and 3 accessory) all being charged at sea by the alternator on the outboard engine and never had a problem. It would be nice to be able to turn off both batteries if the vehicle will be sitting for a few days which appears, in some cases, to be sufficient time to drain the starting battery. The switch will be used to select whether battery 1, 2 or both will be used to start the vehicle.

I've run the same style of switches in dual battery vehicle set-ups for decades without issue, too. We have always fit high quality deep cycle batteries that have dual capacity and can be used to start the vehicle on its' own or be combined with the primary if needed - or drained while camped. We didn't order the Aux Batt because I was considering going the same route with the Grenadier. Unfortunately I don't think it's that simple any more. The smart alternator coupled with the constant drain of modern computer electrical systems is going to take some rethinking.