750 mile (3 week report)

Lars · Jun 13, 2024

JSDKMS! said:
Well, I was just sharing my initial issues etc. with everyone and I get a bunch of snarky replies. That's a shame that some people react to someone's opinions /findings! This board is becoming useless.

It tends to be the same people over and over that feel they need to defend their purchase and world view. I love hearing other people's experience, both good and bad. Personally I'm a proud "glass-half-empty".

emax · Jun 13, 2024

I think that a little more relaxation would do us good. After all, he also writes that he loves the car.

And although most of the points are not an issue for me, I have to agree with some of them. The sluggish infotainment system, for example...

And thank you for the review.

[ Adam ] · Jun 13, 2024

JSDKMS! said:
16. The turning radius is way too much for whatever reason

A fundamental design decision of the Grenadier was to use a solid front axle with kingpins instead of a ball joint knuckle front end. This has a significant impact on the turning radius. According to many kingpins tend to be stronger and more durable than ball joints as well as being easier to maintain.

It was (IMO) a trade off in favor of strength and durability. This decision must have been made very early in the design process - and may have been a strong recommendation from the axle manufacturer, Carraro.

I would guess that at least 70% of all R&D in the grenadier was invested in the frame, suspension and chassis - and much of this was spent before the interior, software interfaces, etc. were developed. I get the feeling those were held much more to a budget & timeline.

Zimm · Jun 13, 2024

trobex said:
Well at least they don't have a 2L milk carton as a footrest...

thats because we use gallons.

Zimm · Jun 13, 2024

DaveB said:
Live solid axles and recirculating ball steering is the reason. You would need to change to independent front suspension and rack & pinion steering to improve it

Funny, NONE of the other myriad of Live axle/ball setups I've owned or driven in 40 ears has ever had steering like this. I guess they must have been doing it wrong. (I'm including my '93 Defender in that statement)

Zimm · Jun 13, 2024

[ Adam ] said:
A fundamental design decision of the Grenadier was to use a solid front axle with kingpins instead of a ball joint knuckle front end. This has a significant impact on the turning radius. According to many kingpins tend to be stronger and more durable than ball joints as well as being easier to maintain.

It was (IMO) a trade off in favor of strength and durability. This decision must have been made very early in the design process - and may have been a strong recommendation from the axle manufacturer, Carraro.

I would guess that at least 70% of all R&D in the grenadier was invested in the frame, suspension and chassis - and much of this was spent before the interior, software interfaces, etc. were developed. I get the feeling those were held much more to a budget & timeline.

I dunnknow, There have been a ton of Dana 60 kingpin factory trucks and buggies out there, and they don't seem to suffer from lack of turning radius. In fact, an open knuckle kingpin arrangement ought to have a greater angle capability. These here apparently have stops set much farther out than manufactured as possible. (why?) As far as strength, well, that's an engineering issue. With ball joints, like IFS, you can make anything as strong as you want. When things break, is when people use them outside of the design parameters.

Ultimately, I don't see anything here, with power, weight, or tire diameter, that would preclude any particular design combination, or make one that much better than the other.

I'd rather have seen a closed knuckle/cv. I just dont like crap and water getting in there and I find it hard to question a cv's superiority with modern manufacturing. But, If designed appropriately, will a driver really notice?

I think ford pickups were the first to go to open in the 60's, and that was for cost.

DaveB · Jun 13, 2024

Zimm said:
Funny, NONE of the other myriad of Live axle/ball setups I've owned or driven in 40 ears has ever had steering like this. I guess they must have been doing it wrong. (I'm including my '93 Defender in that statement)

I am starting to wonder if there is a difference between the LHD and RHD setups.
My vehicle has a large turning circle but has none of the wandering, vague steering or other issues and does return to centre pretty well.
I put up a video showing that even with no hands on the wheel at 105kmh/60MPH it still tracks straight.
Obviously the steering column is on the opposite sides so the linkages will be different
As Ronny Dahl reports in his review it drives much better than the Toyota live axle he owns

[ Adam ] · Jun 13, 2024

DaveB said:
I am starting to wonder if there is a difference between the LHD and RHD setups.
My vehicle has a large turning circle but has none of the wandering, vague steering or other issues and does return to centre pretty well.

I experience the same.

DaveB said:
I put up a video showing that even with no hands on the wheel at 105kmh/60MPH it still tracks straight.

Same for me.

DaveB said:
Obviously the steering column is on the opposite sides so the linkages will be different
As Ronny Dahl reports in his review it drives much better than the Toyota live axle he owns

In my opinion (of very little value) the problem starts with over inflated tires. US Dealerships are setting the tire pressure to the NHTSA recommended 43 PSI front 49 PSI rear. This black sticker is in the drivers side door jam of every Grenadier sold in the USA, and the NHTSA recommendation is for the max Gross Vehicle Weight that the vehicle is rated for.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/the-inadequate-tire-pressure-sticker/

Further, repair shops in California are legally required to set tires to this.

Ineos is very clear in the US owners manual (page 215) that they recommend 36 PSI (2.5 bar, 250 kPa) front and rear for up to 3 passengers.

This is creating no end of confusion among owners, test drivers and reviewers alike.

This is being exacerbated by dealerships and aftermarket companies recommending softer steering dampers as a "solution".

Its a mess.

DaveB · Jun 13, 2024

[ Adam ] said:
I experience the same.

Same for me.

In my opinion (of very little value) the problem starts with over inflated tires. US Dealerships are setting the tire pressure to the NHTSA recommended 43 PSI front 49 PSI rear. This black sticker is in the drivers side door jam of every Grenadier sold in the USA, and the NHTSA recommendation is for the max Gross Vehicle Weight that the vehicle is rated for.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/the-inadequate-tire-pressure-sticker/

Further, repair shops in California are legally required to set tires to this.

View attachment 7859897

Ineos is very clear in the US owners manual (page 215) that they recommend 36 PSI (2.5 bar, 250 kPa) front and rear for up to 3 passengers.

View attachment 7859898

This is creating no end of confusion among owners, test drivers and reviewers alike.

This is being exacerbated by dealerships and aftermarket companies recommending softer steering dampers as a "solution".

Its a mess.

Yes.
I had mine set to 36 and at the first service the dealer changed them to 40 all round.
No idea why.
I haven't changed them back yet, but will soon
I just watched another reviewer showing that you can turn the wheel from side to side about 10 degrees and it has no input to the steering. (I agree)
Then as he is driving down the road he is constantly turning the wheel back and forth about 5 degrees each side.
If it does nothing then why do it??

emax · Jun 13, 2024

Zimm said:
I dunnknow, There have been a ton of Dana 60 kingpin factory trucks and buggies out there, and they don't seem to suffer from lack of turning radius.

I can confirm this for my W461 G-Wagon: Solid front axle, normal turning radius.

[ Adam ] · Jun 13, 2024

emax said:
I can confirm this for my W461 G-Wagon: Solid front axle, normal turning radius.

But is it a kingpin front axle? I don't believe so - my research leads me to believe it is a swivel ball.

(ignore the red circle)

This is an example of the design of a Carraro kingpin (this is not the grenadier) but as you can see, this is mechanically quite different from the design of your swivel ball Mercedes. Mechanical differences mean real, actual differences in steering.

LeftCoastOverland · Jun 13, 2024

bikesandguitars said:
The safari windows are tinted. View attachment 7859858

I knew I wasn’t crazy! I opted to go without the factory heat resistant glass, as I planned on tinting aftermarket… but my safaris are plenty dark. Combined with the full front runner rack over the top of them and they don’t need extra tint. At least in Victoria. Summer in NT might be a different story…

255/85 · Jun 14, 2024

DaveB said:
Yes.
I had mine set to 36 and at the first service the dealer changed them to 40 all round.
No idea why.
I haven't changed them back yet, but will soon
I just watched another reviewer showing that you can turn the wheel from side to side about 10 degrees and it has no input to the steering. (I agree)
Then as he is driving down the road he is constantly turning the wheel back and forth about 5 degrees each side.
If it does nothing then why do it??

Had ours for 1000 miles now. So far so good. Tracks dead straight. Mostly returns to center after a 90º or greater turn. TIres over-inflated by dealer at 45psi front and 50psi rear. I know it's wrong but it drives so well that I've been hesitant to deflate but will soon. Turning radius is only slightly wide. Parking lot Rule of Thumb: Go slow and crank that wheel.

Other points...

Rear view camera is perfectly adequate to prevent squishing the cat.

Only the Offroad screen seems laggy but we don't have any use for phone/maps/gps stuff.

Heat/AC functions well so far. Just avoid the "Auto" setting. The computer is ham-fisted with the blend door.

Hand calculated fuel mileage is running 17+mpg on the highway. Computer has said 20mpg often. We're not leadfoots. That may decline with lower tire pressures.

ADAS doesn't bother me. Half the time I forget to use the FAVE button to get to the Overspeed warning toggle. If it clicks I briefly lift off the throttle. I kind of like the Lane Keep Assist chime - it makes me think I'm in a submarine. Weird, huh?

There's a button to turn off Start/Stop. Non issue.

Offroad Mode works in High and Low range if I need to jump in and don't want to buckle a belt or close the door.

No true off-highway use yet but lockers engage/disengage easily.

Always let your turbo cool down for a few minutes after a long drive. An EGT/Boost gauge would be a nice addition.

I'm glad the ignition key slot is not illuminated. If it's not yours I'm not telling you how to drive it, perp.

No one in the back seat needs a cup holder. Please do your drinking after you exit the vehicle (Just kidding).

The above is just one man's opinion.

DaveB · Jun 14, 2024

255/85 said:
Had ours for 1000 miles now. So far so good. Tracks dead straight. Mostly returns to center after a 90º or greater turn. TIres over-inflated by dealer at 45psi front and 50psi rear. I know it's wrong but it drives so well that I've been hesitant to deflate but will soon. Turning radius is only slightly wide. Parking lot Rule of Thumb: Go slow and crank that wheel.

Other points...

Rear view camera is perfectly adequate to prevent squishing the cat.

Only the Offroad screen seems laggy but we don't have any use for phone/maps/gps stuff.

Heat/AC functions well so far. Just avoid the "Auto" setting. The computer is ham-fisted with the blend door.

Hand calculated fuel mileage is running 17+mpg on the highway. Computer has said 20mpg often. We're not leadfoots. That may decline with lower tire pressures.

ADAS doesn't bother me. Half the time I forget to use the FAVE button to get to the Overspeed warning toggle. If it clicks I briefly lift off the throttle. I kind of like the Lane Keep Assist chime - it makes me think I'm in a submarine. Weird, huh?

There's a button to turn off Start/Stop. Non issue.

Offroad Mode works in High and Low range if I need to jump in and don't want to buckle a belt or close the door.

No true off-highway use yet but lockers engage/disengage easily.

Always let your turbo cool down for a few minutes after a long drive. An EGT/Boost gauge would be a nice addition.

I'm glad the ignition key slot is not illuminated. If it's not yours I'm not telling you how to drive it, perp.

No one in the back seat needs a cup holder. Please do your drinking after you exit the vehicle (Just kidding).

The above is just one man's opinion.

I worked around the screen lagging when using maps and directions, but now that it is fixed and operating correctly it is so good.
I use the cruise control when on highways and use the Waze map app and GPS speed to monitor it.
It also gives up to date warnings of cops, broken down cars, anything sitting on the roadway, such as blown truck tyre treads.

bikesandguitars · Jun 14, 2024

Here’s a detailed review of what’s underneath.

View: https://youtu.be/P41pZAX70U4?si=hMVcWOdIsYPYsTpW

Eric · Jun 14, 2024

DaveB said:
I am starting to wonder if there is a difference between the LHD and RHD setups.
My vehicle has a large turning circle but has none of the wandering, vague steering or other issues and does return to centre pretty well.
I put up a video showing that even with no hands on the wheel at 105kmh/60MPH it still tracks straight.
Obviously the steering column is on the opposite sides so the linkages will be different
As Ronny Dahl reports in his review it drives much better than the Toyota live axle he owns

I concur with your observations, when on-road driving on roads i'm familiar with, I tend/do drive most of the time with only my right hand on the steering wheel ( I usually rest my left hand on the handbrake of all things). I don't have issues with wandering and it initially self centres.
The disadvantage is the wife goes on and on telling me to put two hands on the wheel. Ergo I go to the supermarket on my own.

DaveB · Jun 14, 2024

Eric said:
I concur with your observations, when on-road driving on roads i'm familiar with, I tend/do drive most of the time with only my right hand on the steering wheel ( I usually rest my left hand on the handbrake of all things). I don't have issues with wandering and it initially self centres.
The disadvantage is the wife goes on and on telling me to put two hands on the wheel. Ergo I go to the supermarket on my own.

Yes.
I prefer to leave the speed limiting, lane departure alerting, early brake warning, fun police at home also.

landmannnn · Jun 14, 2024

On the turning circle, it's 35cm more than a Defender 110 or a Jeep Gladiator.

If you are more accustomed to radius, it is 6.5 inches more than those other two.

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750 mile (3 week report)

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