Roof rack better in the gutter or on the grab rails?

2wheelfish · Jul 21, 2023

Certainly I’m no expert, but this is another video

View: https://youtu.be/40ffkv-_v0w
, where Black Sheep shares their reasons for using the grab rails over the gutter and it seems to make a lot of sense to me.

Black Sheep · Jul 21, 2023

Telliottaus said:
Having taken one of the grab bars off to route my uhf radio antenna, they are mounted on strong metal, the concern would be the plastic mouldings that hold the aluminium pipe.

There are no plastic mouldings....

Tom D · Jul 21, 2023

I was concerned about the gutters when I fitted the Flatdog rack, however they have not deformed in any way, even with the 150kg on the roof and the whole family in the tent, about 450kg total. I’m not sure what was going on in the pictures that showed the gutters bending with some racks? Maybe the stiffness of the welded rack and the 8 legs makes a difference on the FD rack…

DCPU · Jul 21, 2023

Black Sheep said:
There are no plastic mouldings....

What are they made of?

Tomdoc · Jul 21, 2023

The black bits holding the grab bars are metal. Thomas even comments on this at the beginning of the video above.

bakepl · Jul 21, 2023

jb_hamon said:
Rhino rack HD Bars are in place. See this post for details.
Rhino rack HD bars

Very much appreciated. Overall fit ok? I see you are using a small plastic wedge. Can you tell me the length of your cross bars thanks. Cheers

jb_hamon · Jul 21, 2023

bakepl said:
Very much appreciated. Overall fit ok? I see you are using a small plastic wedge. Can you tell me the length of your cross bars thanks. Cheers

The overall fit is great. The gutter legs fit nicely the roof shape. The bars length is 1800mm.
This morning I’m going to install the roof top tent and tomorrow the awning. Both are from James Baroud (Evasion XXL rigid RTT and Falcon awning).

jb_hamon · Jul 21, 2023

Tom D said:
I was concerned about the gutters when I fitted the Flatdog rack, however they have not deformed in any way, even with the 150kg on the roof and the whole family in the tent, about 450kg total. I’m not sure what was going on in the pictures that showed the gutters bending with some racks? Maybe the stiffness of the welded rack and the 8 legs makes a difference on the FD rack…

I’m a bit skeptical about the last @Black Sheep video

. The Guy claims that using the gutters as intended by INEOS‘ engineers could lead to cracks and to premature corrosion… Which is covered by a 12 years warranty by INEOS!
But what is the warranty for using the roof handles in a way not intended by the manufacturer of the car ? They are clearly design to strap some loads on the roof, such cases where the distribution of load and forces is quite different than supporting 400kg, tearing downward and perpendicular to the surfaces where the screws are fixed (even if there are 24 of them), for prolonged period of times.
The guy clearly thinks that his design his way better than Ineos’. I wouldn’t be so affirmative…

Tom D · Jul 21, 2023

jb_hamon said:
I’m a bit skeptical about the last @Black Sheep video . The Guy claims that using the gutters as intended by INEOS‘ engineers could lead to cracks and to premature corrosion which is covered by a 12 years warranty ?!
But what is the warranty for using the roof handles in a way not intended by the manufacturer of the car ? They are clearly design to strap some loads on the roof, such cases where the distribution of load and forces is quite different than supporting 400kg, tearing downward and perpendicular to the surfaces where the screws are fixed (even if there are 24 of them), for prolonged period of times.
The guy clearly thinks that his design his way better than Ineos’. I wouldn’t be so affirmative…

I think the black sheep design is good, but you’re right the grab handles are designed to take a load in the opposite direction. I saw a pic somewhere on here that showed the gutters bending considerably with a rack fitted. All I can say is that the one I have fitted does not bend them at all, even when fully loaded. It makes me wonder what that other rack had on it? Or whether it was fitted badly. I can understand bars bending the gutters as all the load is on four points, but with a rack its spread over 8 or more points and the stiffness of the rack itself helps keep everything straight.

jb_hamon · Jul 21, 2023

Tom D said:
I think the black sheep design is good, but you’re right the grab handles are designed to take a load in the opposite direction. I saw a pic somewhere on here that showed the gutters bending considerably with a rack fitted. All I can say is that the one I have fitted does not bend them at all, even when fully loaded. It makes me wonder what that other rack had on it? Or whether it was fitted badly. I can understand bars bending the gutters as all the load is on four points, but with a rack its spread over 8 or more points and the stiffness of the rack itself helps keep everything straight.

I’m planning to install the roof top tent on the bars tomorrow. Will report here how the gutters behave…
My setup is detailed here :
https://www.theineosforum.com/threa...ter-market-accessory.12410499/post-1333199557

ADVAW8S · Jul 21, 2023

jb_hamon said:
I’m a bit skeptical about the last @Black Sheep video . The Guy claims that using the gutters as intended by INEOS‘ engineers could lead to cracks and to premature corrosion which is covered by a 12 years warranty ?!
But what is the warranty for using the roof handles in a way not intended by the manufacturer of the car ? They are clearly design to strap some loads on the roof, such cases where the distribution of load and forces is quite different than supporting 400kg, tearing downward and perpendicular to the surfaces where the screws are fixed (even if there are 24 of them), for prolonged period of times.
The guy clearly thinks that his design his way better than Ineos’. I wouldn’t be so affirmative…

I'll let @Black Sheep. Comment, but the video shows that the loading arms are bolted into the frame of the vehicle. 24 bolts to be exact. Then the roof rack is bolted to the arms. There is a misconception that the BSI rack is attached to the lashing tube.

I think everyone will have a different opinion on how to accomplish a goal. BSI believes it's bolting it to the frame. I will say unless my degree in economics magically converts to a mechanical engineering degree, I'm not going to tell him he is wrong.

DaveB · Jul 21, 2023

ADVAW8S said:
I'll let @Black Sheep. Comment, but the video shows that the loading arms are bolted into the frame of the vehicle. 24 bolts to be exact. Then the roof rack is bolted to the arms. There is a misconception that the BSI rack is attached to the lashing tube.

I think everyone will have a different opinion on how to accomplish a goal. BSI believes it's bolting it to the frame. I will say unless my degree in economics magically converts to a mechanical engineering degree, I'm not going to tell him he is wrong.

In all the videos I have seen with him he strikes me as a person who knows what he is doing.

Shopkeep · Jul 21, 2023

jb_hamon said:
I’m a bit skeptical about the last @Black Sheep video . The Guy claims that using the gutters as intended by INEOS‘ engineers could lead to cracks and to premature corrosion… Which is covered by a 12 years warranty by INEOS!
But what is the warranty for using the roof handles in a way not intended by the manufacturer of the car ? They are clearly design to strap some loads on the roof, such cases where the distribution of load and forces is quite different than supporting 400kg, tearing downward and perpendicular to the surfaces where the screws are fixed (even if there are 24 of them), for prolonged period of times.
The guy clearly thinks that his design his way better than Ineos’. I wouldn’t be so affirmative…

Did you actually watch the full video? The handles don’t take the full load, only 30%, and that 30% is secured in a manner far beyond other rack designs. The roof takes the majority of the load as it was designed to. Rather than just take a legacy product and mildly adapt it as other brands have done he has developed a custom solution that takes full advantage of the unusual design of the Grenadier.

Tom109 · Jul 21, 2023

Time will tell.

What I took from the video is that the roof gutters do flex at the cutouts for the tie-down handles. At this point in the video (time stamp shown below) you can see Thomas easily flex the gutter. So, possibly, the cutout in the outer skin will allowed this flex(?). I believe this is Thomas's point and the basis of his design. Well done.

Now, if you compare the mounting points of the factory Rhino Rack, you will see they fall outside/in between the tie-down cutouts where the gutter is supported by the complete outer-skin roof structure. I suspect the absence of flex in these locations, coupled with the one-piece side-frame/foot makes for a very strong and sturdy installation.

Over time this will all be verified. But for now, perhaps the foot placement along the gutter rail should also be carefully considered. For me, the Rhino is still my number one choice, and it is now even available in 3/4 length. Equally well done.

Telliottaus · Jul 22, 2023

Shopkeep said:
Did you actually watch the full video? The handles don’t take the full load, only 30%, and that 30% is secured in a manner far beyond other rack designs. The roof takes the majority of the load as it was designed to. Rather than just take a legacy product and mildly adapt it as other brands have done he has developed a custom solution that takes full advantage of the unusual design of the Grenadier.

I am interested in the Black Sheep rack, but have 2 concerns,
1. The mounts holding the aluminium tube are plastic
2. Rubbing on the roof during driving on extreme corrugations, which I have done for 4 days in my Grenadier

Shopkeep · Jul 22, 2023

Telliottaus said:
1. The mounts holding the aluminium tube are plastic

???? I think he covers off the misconception that the mounts are plastic in the video.

(not trying to be condescending here but just in case you are not aware you can turn on Closed Captions and in the settings set auto translate to English or language of your choice).

Tazzieman · Jul 22, 2023

Tom109 said:
For me, the Rhino is still my number one choice, and it is now even available in 3/4 length. Equally well done.

Is there a Rhino rack that extends up to and not over the safari windows ; the only shorter one I've seen looks like a 1/2 rack?

Telliottaus · Jul 22, 2023

Shopkeep said:
???? I think he covers off the misconception that the mounts are plastic in the video.

I have pulled them off to install my uhf antenna, pretty sure they are plastic.i was thinking of getting some metal ones fabricated...

Shopkeep · Jul 22, 2023

Telliottaus said:
I have pulled them off to install my uhf antenna, they are plastic.i was thinking of getting some metal ones fabricated...

The brackets fitted to Australian models are different to those fitted to European models????

Telliottaus · Jul 22, 2023

Shopkeep said:
The brackets fitted to Australian models are different to those fitted to European models????

I haven't seen a European one, mine is a Trialmaster with the aux high load panel..fwiw

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