Diff locks.

DCPU · Jul 3, 2023

trobex said:
What does the Manual say to do?

It's being rewritten to suggest you find an easier route...

Tom109 · Jul 3, 2023

Tazzieman said:
Take it offroad and try again.

I too am wondering of the softer terrain would allow the system to detect wheel slip and confirm lock.

bemax · Jul 3, 2023

Tom109 said:
I too am wondering of the softer terrain would allow the system to detect wheel slip and confirm lock.

100% agreed

.
When I tried on a soft slope some weeks ago the locker’s worked fine and fast!
But anyway you might want to activate them before you hit a difficult obstacle.
At this time the terrain might still be firm ground!

Solmanic · Jul 3, 2023

DCPU said:
Yes.

What are you supposed to do if you encounter a condition in front of you were you want both diffs locked? Drive through part of it with just the rear diff locking, then locked and then press the front diff button, for it to go through a locking and then locked cycle. By that time you may already be stuck, and it's certainly more of a distraction exactly when your focus should be just on driving.

This all seems rather odd. In the G-Wagen, which also uses Eaton E lockers, you just smash each of the locker buttons in order as quick as you like - centre - rear - front, and they just lock in that order. No significant delays unless you have some differential wheel speed across the axles.

I would have expected the Grenadier to operate much the same way with the exception of the mechanical centre diff lock.

Tazzieman · Jul 3, 2023

Solmanic said:
This all seems rather odd. In the G-Wagen, which also uses Eaton E lockers, you just smash each of the locker buttons in order as quick as you like - centre - rear - front, and they just lock in that order. No significant delays unless you have some differential wheel speed across the axles.

I would have expected the Grenadier to operate much the same way with the exception of the mechanical centre diff lock.

G wagen is 2- 2.5x the price...
That's the cost to play whackamolee

DenisM · Jul 3, 2023

bemax said:
100% agreed .

When I tried on a soft slope some weeks ago the locker’s worked fine and fast!
But anyway you might want to activate them before you hit a difficult obstacle.
At this time the terrain might still be firm ground!

Here's a thought:
Page 88 Owner's Manual Differentials, second point down
WARNING: Locked differentials can cause instability on
high traction surfaces. This can cause an incident where
the vehicle is damaged or injury is sustained.

The Owner's manual is poorly written... it specifically mentions no locking on 'high traction surfaces' but likewise says the Electronic Stability Control must not be actively supporting the driver when switching on the diff locks.!

I don't get my vehicle for another 2-3 weeks to test my theories ;-) ... however I'm suggesting that perhaps the clue is in Bemax's experience on a "soft slope"...

The "system" won't engage UNTIL it senses the vehicle is not on a high traction surface... hence the continuous flashing yellow.

There needs to be some wheel slip, which the ESC would counter if it was operating.... but not so much wheel slip (spinning wheels) that the engagement of the diff lock will "shock" the driveline.

Can the ESC and traction control be switched off prior to switching the diff locks? ...engagement of the diff locks is supposed to automatically disable ESC and ABS. Turning them off beforehand however might improve the process... and make it easier for the "system" to detect the minimal wheel slip on loose/soft surfaces as a precondition for positive engagement....(it's late there's no test cricket on TV and I have an early start...forgive the ramblings...

DCPU · Jul 3, 2023

Tom109 said:
I too am wondering of the softer terrain would allow the system to detect wheel slip and confirm lock.

Don't you mean that when unlocking?

If the system detects wheel slip across an axle then there's definitely no lock.

Tom D · Jul 3, 2023

I think the system has been designed by the lawyers. I’d have preferred a simple switch , on or off. But some idiot would have switched it on on the motorway, crashed and then sued. So here we are..

DCPU · Jul 3, 2023

Solmanic said:
I would have expected the Grenadier to operate much the same way with the exception of the mechanical centre diff lock.

Yes, but Ineos in their wisdom have integrated it with some form of electronic interlocking/logic with inputs from unrelated sensors.

Tazzieman · Jul 3, 2023

Hit offroad mode switch first?

Fidei Defensor · Jul 3, 2023

CB said:
I viewed a video where the front lockers were engaged and not the rear lockers. While powering up a hill and over some rocks the front differential broke. The owner made a point of saying it was his fault because he thought he could make the climb with just the front differential locked and not the rear which put too much unnecessary strain on the front differential trying to pull the full weight of the vehicle. I'm no expert but this may be a partial explanation as to why the Grenadier is set up this way.

I can't think of any real-life situation where you would want the front locked and the rear unlocked! So any logic tp prevent this makes sense to me. Just wish there ws not so much electrics/electronics involved!
My D90 has front and rear air-actuated lockers (McNamara, not ARB!). I actually have zero electrics in my system, as I use air switches (the kit came with the usual electric relay actuated air valves, which I dumped. Air sitches are easily sources from any pheumatic control supplier!). I set it up so the rear switch locks the rear and supplies air to the front locker switch. So the front can only be locked after the rear is locked. And if I unlock the rear, the front also unlocks automatically. And the switches fall conveniently to hand, with all the flexible tubing nicely out of the way in the battery box. Also, the air comes from an engine driven compressor (modified york air conditioner compressor) and the only "electrics" are the 12v clutch on the belt pulley. The locker switches fall nicely to hand as shown in the photo. Of course, intuitiely, the rear switch is for the rear locker.....

Tom109 · Jul 3, 2023

DCPU said:
Don't you mean that when unlocking?

If the system detects wheel slip across an axle then there's definitely no lock.

Yes, semantics and starting first cup of coffee...

DaveB · Jul 3, 2023

DenisM said:
Here's a thought:
Page 88 Owner's Manual Differentials, second point down
WARNING: Locked differentials can cause instability on
high traction surfaces. This can cause an incident where
the vehicle is damaged or injury is sustained.

The Owner's manual is poorly written... it specifically mentions no locking on 'high traction surfaces' but likewise says the Electronic Stability Control must not be actively supporting the driver when switching on the diff locks.!

I don't get my vehicle for another 2-3 weeks to test my theories ;-) ... however I'm suggesting that perhaps the clue is in Bemax's experience on a "soft slope"...

The "system" won't engage UNTIL it senses the vehicle is not on a high traction surface... hence the continuous flashing yellow.

There needs to be some wheel slip, which the ESC would counter if it was operating.... but not so much wheel slip (spinning wheels) that the engagement of the diff lock will "shock" the driveline.

Can the ESC and traction control be switched off prior to switching the diff locks? ...engagement of the diff locks is supposed to automatically disable ESC and ABS. Turning them off beforehand however might improve the process... and make it easier for the "system" to detect the minimal wheel slip on loose/soft surfaces as a precondition for positive engagement....(it's late there's no test cricket on TV and I have an early start...forgive the ramblings...

I would recommend before engaging lockers that you select off road mode.
This turns ESC to minimum
I don't have my vehicle yet but that seems like it may help to me.
Surely if you were getting to a point where you need lockers you would already be in off road mode.

AnD3rew · Jul 3, 2023

Unfortunately this stuff is “normal” for Eaton e-lockers in my experience. I have a rear one in my current vehicle and it doesn’t engage immediately you do have to move it a bit on loose surfaces before it engages, and disengages. And INEOS has compounded this slightly by not adding the specific sensor so now has to use an ABS sensor or wheel sensor to work it out. We are just going to have to get used to looking and planning ahead. It’s hard to tell if some people have actual faults (because of the way it is set up) but most likely most of this is not actual faults, it’s just Eaton e-lockers.

trobex · Jul 3, 2023

DaveB said:
What I said

Yet people cannot get it to work properly or it just isn't working in some cases. I feel for them.

James · Jul 4, 2023

AnD3rew said:
Unfortunately this stuff is “normal” for Eaton e-lockers in my experience. I have a rear one in my current vehicle and it doesn’t engage immediately you do have to move it a bit on loose surfaces before it engages, and disengages. And INEOS has compounded this slightly by not adding the specific sensor so now has to use an ABS sensor or wheel sensor to work it out. We are just going to have to get used to looking and planning ahead. It’s hard to tell if some people have actual faults (because of the way it is set up) but most likely most of this is not actual faults, it’s just Eaton e-lockers.

yeah, I had thought, before launch, that all the issues with diffs locking was around the sensor choice, ie not whether it had locked or not, but whether the indicator screen was up to date.
it is hard to read all the info coming from owners and not feel that there is some software ‘deciding’ whether or not to implement the locks, compounding the possible delay in indicators.
I would prefer the switches to directly act on the relay and lock on command, accepting the indicator may still delay. Im fine with the front requiring the back. I suppose centre locked makes sense, but I dont see that it’s necessary, or necessary to have any software interrupting the command. Ive had diff locks and never attempted to lock them with a spinning wheel; user error can still have a consequence, like pointing the car at a damaging drop.
maybe ineos might remove some ‘smarts’ in an update? What’s everyone else think?

anand · Jul 4, 2023

James said:
maybe ineos might remove some ‘smarts’ in an update? What’s everyone else think?

The "smarts" are a safety/liability requirement, as with all other brands, at least here in the US. Effectively, with the locker engaged, ABS is useless (thus why ABS gets deactivated with the activation of the rear locker on the Grenadier, and most if not all other vehicles). This is the same reasoning why there is a hierarchy of locking (low range + center, then rear, then front).

Does the locking "process" vary slightly in the Grenadier in comparison to other vehicles with electronically actuated different locks, yes. But going through dozens if not hundreds of lock/unlock cycles for both front and rear lockers (when "pre-stuck" and "stuck"), I think only in one instance was there a time when it refused to lock (and honestly, I probably just didn't give it enough rotations).

Someone mentioned earlier if there was ever an instance where you would want the front locked and not the rear, and yes, that does occur, in a very small instances of circumstances, but for the 99.9% of people, they have no business being in that scenario to begin with.

DCPU · Jul 4, 2023

Tazzieman said:
Hit offroad mode switch first?

I tried that...

DCPU · Jul 4, 2023

Fidei Defensor said:
I can't think of any real-life situation where you would want the front locked and the rear unlocked! So any logic tp prevent this makes sense to me.

I once snapped a rear halfshaft on a track. Whipped the broken end out via the hub and limped though the rest of the track with just front wheel drive. On several occasions getting stuck on simple cross axle situations. If I could have locked the front it would have been simple to maintain traction.

Just the fact that an inoperable rear locker takes out a perfectly functional front one is madness.

Would you apply the same logic to the front and rear windscreen wipers?

Should selecting a heated seat disable the air conditioning?

Wayneos · Jul 4, 2023

DCPU said:
I tried that...
View attachment 7818920

The Offroad mode is ON or OFF, which is it Grenadier?

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Diff locks.

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Tazzieman

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Inch deep and a mile wide.

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