Diff Lockers unlock on their own??

[DaveB]

It could probably be done on the Grenadier. Bypassing the software and installing switches should get you there in low range. Whether on not the "ESC Off" button will function well enough to allow true locker function in high range is another matter.



But they certainly require power to remain magnetic which is why remaining engaged with the vehicle off would be a bad idea for all the less experienced Grenadier owners.



Wire cutters anyone?



I've linked that video before. The most important thing it shows is that engagement requires wheel slippage (a quarter turn or so) and disengagement also requires wheel slip to be recognized by the Ineos system. Driving ahead on a high traction surface will not allow wheel speed differentiation to confirm disengagement but who cares? If the lockers disengage or not will be easily felt through the steering.

Additionally, I don't believe the Eaton installation kit includes any way of knowing whether the lockers are engaged or not. They only supply a "power on" light.

The video below shows that internet reviewers are finally understanding the system and giving accurate explanations about how the lockers works. About friggin' time.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av3l5FwDooY

Yes
I also have posted the Harrop video before. A year or two ago I think.

 

[pmatusov]

But they certainly require power to remain magnetic which is why remaining engaged with the vehicle off would be a bad idea for all the less experienced Grenadier owners.

Correct. It would not be a great idea even for more experienced Grenadier owners - one may simply forget to turn the lockers off.
Currently, my bigger worry is the lockers NOT unlocking when they should, and taking a long time and some meandering to unlock. The last time it happened I was about to get on pavement on the major highway, so I had to make a super-sharp U-turn.
I hope the splines on the locking collars in the diffs will wear out with time, allowing for easier engagement and disengagement.

 

[Zimm]

Correct. It would not be a great idea even for more experienced Grenadier owners - one may simply forget to turn the lockers off.

Timer with an audible warning.

 

[pmatusov]

Timer with an audible warning.

People love audible warnings. ADAS is everyone's darling.

 

[255/85]

Correct. It would not be a great idea even for more experienced Grenadier owners - one may simply forget to turn the lockers off.
Currently, my bigger worry is the lockers NOT unlocking when they should, and taking a long time and some meandering to unlock. The last time it happened I was about to get on pavement on the major highway, so I had to make a super-sharp U-turn.
I hope the splines on the locking collars in the diffs will wear out with time, allowing for easier engagement and disengagement.

Were you getting driveline bind? Or was it just that the light wasn't turning off? I'm not doubting your assessment - just clarifying. I could see the mechanism's internals remaining aligned after calling for disengagement if the internal dimensions are tight but needing to create such a large discrepancy between wheel speeds to allow safe highway driving is not good. Were you chirping tires in the U-turn? If not the differential may have been unlocked already.

I think a major reason for not allowing the lockers to be activated in High Range is the fear of lawsuits. I doubt Ineos wants anyone to be running a front locker at highway speed. Or launching in 4 High at the drag strip with a modded engine.

 

[Tazzieman]

So unlocking the mechanical centre diff (as you always do just before exiting the rough/slippery stuff) doesn't automatically unlock the axle diffs?
I ignore the dash lights...

 

[pmatusov]

Were you getting driveline bind? Or was it just that the light wasn't turning off? I'm not doubting your assessment - just clarifying. I could see the mechanism's internals remaining aligned after calling for disengagement if the internal dimensions are tight but needing to create such a large discrepancy between wheel speeds to allow safe highway driving is not good. Were you chirping tires in the U-turn? If not the differential may have been unlocked already.

I think a major reason for not allowing the lockers to be activated in High Range is the fear of lawsuits. I doubt Ineos wants anyone to be running a front locker at highway speed. Or launching in 4 High at the drag strip with a modded engine.

I was getting driveline bind if I turned.
I think I used every trick in the book - used neutral, backed up quite a ways, and the only thing that unlocked both diffs right away was a forced sharp turn.
The diffs unlocked, but the board lit up like a Christmas tree - including CEL. Most of the lights went away upon engine shutdown and restart, but ABS- and TC-related lights remained for a couple dozen miles afterwards.

So unlocking the mechanical centre diff (as you always do just before exiting the rough/slippery stuff) doesn't automatically unlock the axle diffs?
I ignore the dash lights...

It should. But it doesn't.
I have seen a situation when center diff icon was dark but both axle diffs - solid ON.

 

[Tazzieman]

It should. But it doesn't.
I have seen a situation when center diff icon was dark but both axle diffs - solid ON.

i'd document it and return to the dealer. Sounds like a fault.

 

[pmatusov]

i'd document it and return to the dealer. Sounds like a fault.

I'll put in another thousand miles on dirt before I start complaining. I never expected a flawless locker performance from a brand new vehicle; I remember the new Disco 1 being reluctant to shift from high to low and back - towards 290k miles, it was a breeze at 20 mph.

 

[[ Adam ]]

So unlocking the mechanical centre diff (as you always do just before exiting the rough/slippery stuff) doesn't automatically unlock the axle diffs?
I ignore the dash lights...

The way the system is supposed to work (to my knowledge):

Unlocking center causes the system to request the front and rear be unlocked. Once the wheel speed sensors identify a difference in wheel speeds - the locked indicators will go off.

That said...

The problem seems to be it takes a while for the wheel speed sensors to sense a difference in wheel speeds. Turning, or perhaps jamming on the throttle and inducing slip should do the trick.

 

[Zimm]

People love audible warnings. ADAS is everyone's darling.

Yea! at this point why not another! Plus, the easy way to avoid this is to merely turn them off! Its an avoidable bing bang boop! All noises aren't bad!

 

[Zimm]

Maybe the problem here, is a few people on this site have extensive off road driving skills, we may have always set our trucks operation up to reflect that knowlege, but Ineos (like every other mass manufacturer) has to consider a soccer mom is going to get her hands on this, and that level freedom could cause a fatality with the unwary. I'm sure it can be changed, but, like all modern cars, it's not a wiring issue, it's a hacking issue. Maybe some day some entrepreneurial soul will give this the John Deere tractor treatment and we'll all be sitting there with laptops adjusting what we need.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

I understand it to be a case of unlock the transfer case and then the front and rear axle locks immediately disengage. However it takes a little while (a few minutes one time for my Grenadier) to register.

 

[rovie]

I understand it to be a case of unlock the transfer case and then the front and rear axle locks immediately disengage. However it takes a little while (a few minutes one time for my Grenadier) to register.

Yes, they unlock after you have pressed the switch. The time until the LEDs go out is not fixed. As soon as you drive over 50 km/h or driving curves, the sensors react and switch off.

 

[pmatusov]

Yes, they unlock after you have pressed the switch.

$20 says it isn't so.
Pressing the switch acts upon the current to the solenoid that was used to lock the diff.
But if there is any load on the splined collar locking the diff, the collar will slide off whenever the load is relieved - hence driving in reverse, or making the turns, or whatever.
My WAG is that these splines are pretty tight on a new vehicle, and need some time to wear in.

 

[Zimm]

$20 says it isn't so.
Pressing the switch acts upon the current to the solenoid that was used to lock the diff.
But if there is any load on the splined collar locking the diff, the collar will slide off whenever the load is relieved - hence driving in reverse, or making the turns, or whatever.
My WAG is that these splines are pretty tight on a new vehicle, and need some time to wear in.

I've been assuming the mechanism doesn't apply nearly the force hydraulic or other mechanical means does, and some people may just have to get used to slow engagement.

 

[rovie]

$20 says it isn't so.
Pressing the switch acts upon the current to the solenoid that was used to lock the diff.
But if there is any load on the splined collar locking the diff, the collar will slide off whenever the load is relieved - hence driving in reverse, or making the turns, or whatever.
My WAG is that these splines are pretty tight on a new vehicle, and need some time to wear in.

My statement is based on my own experience.
On a very wet, muddy, level meadow, I noticed from the steering how the locks released after the button was deactivated. This is particularly noticeable on the front axle. I never deactivate the locks under load.
And because I use the locks regularly, I have a feeling for whether the drivetrain is tense.
It may well be that other people have different experiences. I don't deny that.

 

[pmatusov]

I've been assuming the mechanism doesn't apply nearly the force hydraulic or other mechanical means does, and some people may just have to get used to slow engagement.

Probably, and likely. But you know that "engagement" is a non-precise term. Is half a millimeter of interlocking splines an engagement? Or is it five millimeters? Is it at all sensed, and if so, where's the sensor, and is it threaded deep enough?

My statement is based on my own experience.
On a very wet, muddy, level meadow, I noticed from the steering how the locks released after the button was deactivated. This is particularly noticeable on the front axle. I never deactivate the locks under load.
And because I use the locks regularly, I have a feeling for whether the drivetrain is tense.
It may well be that other people have different experiences. I don't deny that.

On my truck, when the diff lock lights are off, the diffs are very likely unlocked - same as with you, by the steering feel. But I can't say I know when there's load on the diffs - a 1-psi mismatch in tire pressure can be enough to fight the disengagement.

 

[Zimm]

Probably, and likely. But you know that "engagement" is a non-precise term. Is half a millimeter of interlocking splines an engagement? Or is it five millimeters? Is it at all sensed, and if so, where's the sensor, and is it threaded deep enough?

On my truck, when the diff lock lights are off, the diffs are very likely unlocked - same as with you, by the steering feel. But I can't say I know when there's load on the diffs - a 1-psi mismatch in tire pressure can be enough to fight the disengagement.

I'm not at all sure what they look like on a harrop. The G dog collar was rather square and steep. Wearing "loose" on them eventually meant rounded teeth which was bad.

I Preferred the master/slave system of the pinz/460/461. The signal switch is simply attached to the slave slider. K.I.S.S.