Steering- example- 70 series Landcruiser

[MrMike]

Here is a video I took of a brand new 79 series LC
Same steering as the IG 4+ turns lock to lock and I have absolutely no problems coming from my 200 LC with 3 turns and rack and pinion steering. Yes its not as direct but to say its not great is IMO incorrect

 

[Krabby]

What steering setup was in the 80 series LC? What about first and second generation Discos?

 

[MrMike]

What steering setup was in the 80 series LC? What about first and second generation Discos?

80s is the same as the 70s from memory Recirculating ball

 

[bimmerteck]

What steering setup was in the 80 series LC? What about first and second generation Discos?

I’ll check my D1 rotations tomorrow, but I know it can get quite a bit of play as the steering box wears in time.

 

[MrMike]

I’ll check my D1 rotations tomorrow, but I know it can get quite a bit of play as the steering box wears

I’ll check my D1 rotations tomorrow, but I know it can get quite a bit of play as the steering box wears in time.

My 1982 HJ47 has about an eighth of play in the wheel, and no power assistance, challenging...yes.

 

[das mo]

Thanks all for sharing.

I am not concerned about the number of rotations, but the play.

With no first hand experience with the Gren on road, I try to figure what the play thing is about?

Are those reviewers simply missing the direct straight connection via a pinion in general or is it more around the car drifting sideways whilst you keep the wheel straight? So you keep slightly working the steering in order not to „lose“ contact all the time.

Some sounded like the latter, which is scary.

Sorry if I am not clear here. Probably would not even know how to put this in my mother tongue.

 

[Krabby]

80s is the same as the 70s from memory Recirculating ball

Gotcha. Granted it was stock, but I never had an issue driving my ‘92 80 so I’m not worried whatsoever.

 

[trobex]

Here is a video I took of a brand new 79 series LC
Same steering as the IG 4+ turns lock to lock and I have absolutely no problems coming from my 200 LC with 3 turns and rack and pinion steering. Yes its not as direct but to say its not great is IMO incorrect

Absolutely no issues at all with this steering config. It is tried, tested, lasts forever, no breaking parts etc etc. Just a feels thing.

 

[stickshifter]

Thanks all for sharing.

I am not concerned about the number of rotations, but the play.

With no first hand experience with the Gren on road, I try to figure what the play thing is about?

Are those reviewers simply missing the direct straight connection via a pinion in general or is it more around the car drifting sideways whilst you keep the wheel straight? So you keep slightly working the steering in order not to „lose“ contact all the time.

Some sounded like the latter, which is scary.

Sorry if I am not clear here. Probably would not even know how to put this in my mother tongue.

I have really appreciated members of this forum from all over the world participating in English - so I'd like to try to help out.

"Play" in the steering refers to the following: you are driving straight down the road with no intention of turning left or right, but you can move the steering wheel a little bit to the left and a little bit to the right without it have any effect on the front tires - they still point straight.

The opposite of play is "tight" steering, in which any small input to the steering wheel directly results in change to the direction of the front tires.

Vehicles with "rack and pinion steering" tend to have tight steering, while vehicles with "recirculating ball steering" tend to have some play. This is by design. When driving a sports car through turns, one wants tight steering. However, when off road, tight steering results in too much feedback being delivered from the front tires to the steering wheel, in the form of the steering wheel violently jerking in one direction or another. This is exhausting for the driver, and can even result in the driver suffering minor injury. Recirculating ball steering reduces this feedback. In addition, recirculating ball steering is much more durable when subjected to off road use.

How much play there is can be measured (roughly). Can you turn the wheel an inch in one direction without it affecting the tires? Two inches?

How much play is acceptable is subjective, and varies from one person to another.

In a recirculating ball set up, play can increase over time as various parts in the steering system get worn: the steering box itself, the ball joints, and the bushings in the front end are all prime candidates for wear. The rate at which these things get worn depends on how the vehicle is driven. Putting larger tires on a vehicle dramatically increases the rate at which they will get worn.

The diagram below is from a Jeep JK, but the set up is quite similar to the Grenadier. There are bushings at the ends of the tie rod and drag link, and these seem to be most vulnerable to wear, resulting in increased play in the steering. You can't see the ball joints in this diagram, but quality of ball joints varies dramatically. For example, stock ball joints in the Ram 2500/3500 and stock ball joints in Jeep Wranglers tend to wear quickly, while some aftermarket ball joints (e.g. Carli, Dynatrac) are much more robust, and come with a lifetime warranty.

Info on Jeep JK ball joints here (location and function similar to Grenadier): https://jeeprunner.com/best-jeep-jk-ball-joints/

In a Jeep Wrangler, the amount of play in the steering can be reduced by increasing the strength of the steering box and its mountings, the strength of the front end components (tie rod, drag link, track bar), increasing the quality of the ball joints, and the quality of the bushings. All of this can be done through the aftermarket, due to the number of people who up-size their tires.

Most of the front end components in the Grenadier seem very strong, so there probably won't be much room for improving those. We know nothing about the quality of the ball joints and bushings, so that - at this point - is an unknown variable. There may be aftermarket solutions to play in the Grenadier's steering, or most buyers may decide that the amount of play is acceptable.

 

[rovie]

I have really appreciated members of this forum from all over the world participating in English - so I'd like to try to help out.

"Play" in the steering refers to the following: you are driving straight down the road with no intention of turning left or right, but you can move the steering wheel a little bit to the left and a little bit to the right without it have any effect on the front tires - they still point straight.

The opposite of play is "tight" steering, in which any small input to the steering wheel directly results in change to the direction of the front tires.

Vehicles with "rack and pinion steering" tend to have tight steering, while vehicles with "recirculating ball steering" tend to have some play. This is by design. When driving a sports car through turns, one wants tight steering. However, when off road, tight steering results in too much feedback being delivered from the front tires to the steering wheel, in the form of the steering wheel violently jerking in one direction or another. This is exhausting for the driver, and can even result in the driver suffering minor injury. Recirculating ball steering reduces this feedback. In addition, recirculating ball steering is much more durable when subjected to off road use.

How much play there is can be measured (roughly). Can you turn the wheel an inch in one direction without it affecting the tires? Two inches?

How much play is acceptable is subjective, and varies from one person to another.

In a recirculating ball set up, play can increase over time as various parts in the steering system get worn: the steering box itself, the ball joints, and the bushings in the front end are all prime candidates for wear. The rate at which these things get worn depends on how the vehicle is driven. Putting larger tires on a vehicle dramatically increases the rate at which they will get worn.

The diagram below is from a Jeep JK, but the set up is quite similar to the Grenadier. There are bushings at the ends of the tie rod and drag link, and these seem to be most vulnerable to wear, resulting in increased play in the steering. You can't see the ball joints in this diagram, but quality of ball joints varies dramatically. For example, stock ball joints in the Ram 2500/3500 and stock ball joints in Jeep Wranglers tend to wear quickly, while some aftermarket ball joints (e.g. Carli, Dynatrac) are much more robust, and come with a lifetime warranty.

View attachment 7803080
In a Jeep Wrangler, the amount of play in the steering can be reduced by increasing the strength of the steering box and its mountings, the strength of the front end components (tie rod, drag link, track bar), increasing the quality of the ball joints, and the quality of the bushings. All of this can be done through the aftermarket, due to the number of people who up-size their tires.

Most of the front end components in the Grenadier seem very strong, so there probably won't be much room for improving those. We know nothing about the quality of the ball joints and bushings, so that - at this point - is an unknown variable. There may be aftermarket solutions to play in the Grenadier's steering, or most buyers may decide that the amount of play is acceptable.

Very good summary. Thank you very much!

 

[das mo]

I have really appreciated members of this forum from all over the world participating in English - so I'd like to try to help out.

"Play" in the steering refers to the following: you are driving straight down the road with no intention of turning left or right, but you can move the steering wheel a little bit to the left and a little bit to the right without it have any effect on the front tires - they still point straight.

The opposite of play is "tight" steering, in which any small input to the steering wheel directly results in change to the direction of the front tires.

Vehicles with "rack and pinion steering" tend to have tight steering, while vehicles with "recirculating ball steering" tend to have some play. This is by design. When driving a sports car through turns, one wants tight steering. However, when off road, tight steering results in too much feedback being delivered from the front tires to the steering wheel, in the form of the steering wheel violently jerking in one direction or another. This is exhausting for the driver, and can even result in the driver suffering minor injury. Recirculating ball steering reduces this feedback. In addition, recirculating ball steering is much more durable when subjected to off road use.

How much play there is can be measured (roughly). Can you turn the wheel an inch in one direction without it affecting the tires? Two inches?

How much play is acceptable is subjective, and varies from one person to another.

In a recirculating ball set up, play can increase over time as various parts in the steering system get worn: the steering box itself, the ball joints, and the bushings in the front end are all prime candidates for wear. The rate at which these things get worn depends on how the vehicle is driven. Putting larger tires on a vehicle dramatically increases the rate at which they will get worn.

The diagram below is from a Jeep JK, but the set up is quite similar to the Grenadier. There are bushings at the ends of the tie rod and drag link, and these seem to be most vulnerable to wear, resulting in increased play in the steering. You can't see the ball joints in this diagram, but quality of ball joints varies dramatically. For example, stock ball joints in the Ram 2500/3500 and stock ball joints in Jeep Wranglers tend to wear quickly, while some aftermarket ball joints (e.g. Carli, Dynatrac) are much more robust, and come with a lifetime warranty.

View attachment 7803080
Info on Jeep JK ball joints here (location and function similar to Grenadier): https://jeeprunner.com/best-jeep-jk-ball-joints/

In a Jeep Wrangler, the amount of play in the steering can be reduced by increasing the strength of the steering box and its mountings, the strength of the front end components (tie rod, drag link, track bar), increasing the quality of the ball joints, and the quality of the bushings. All of this can be done through the aftermarket, due to the number of people who up-size their tires.

Most of the front end components in the Grenadier seem very strong, so there probably won't be much room for improving those. We know nothing about the quality of the ball joints and bushings, so that - at this point - is an unknown variable. There may be aftermarket solutions to play in the Grenadier's steering, or most buyers may decide that the amount of play is acceptable.

Excellent.

Thanks for taking the time.

So it seems Citroen managed to give me the RBS play on a pinion setup for all these years!

I think I am good here and all those reviewers pointing this out to be a risk are simply used to setups I never owned.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Also in the mix is that the majority of the reviewers are car people, not necessarily 4X4 people. How used to driving with very high profile tires are they, the higher the profile the more vague the steering, its not a huge impact but it all adds up.

 

[grenadierguy]

I have really appreciated members of this forum from all over the world participating in English - so I'd like to try to help out.

"Play" in the steering refers to the following: you are driving straight down the road with no intention of turning left or right, but you can move the steering wheel a little bit to the left and a little bit to the right without it have any effect on the front tires - they still point straight.

The opposite of play is "tight" steering, in which any small input to the steering wheel directly results in change to the direction of the front tires.

Vehicles with "rack and pinion steering" tend to have tight steering, while vehicles with "recirculating ball steering" tend to have some play. This is by design. When driving a sports car through turns, one wants tight steering. However, when off road, tight steering results in too much feedback being delivered from the front tires to the steering wheel, in the form of the steering wheel violently jerking in one direction or another. This is exhausting for the driver, and can even result in the driver suffering minor injury. Recirculating ball steering reduces this feedback. In addition, recirculating ball steering is much more durable when subjected to off road use.

How much play there is can be measured (roughly). Can you turn the wheel an inch in one direction without it affecting the tires? Two inches?

How much play is acceptable is subjective, and varies from one person to another.

In a recirculating ball set up, play can increase over time as various parts in the steering system get worn: the steering box itself, the ball joints, and the bushings in the front end are all prime candidates for wear. The rate at which these things get worn depends on how the vehicle is driven. Putting larger tires on a vehicle dramatically increases the rate at which they will get worn.

The diagram below is from a Jeep JK, but the set up is quite similar to the Grenadier. There are bushings at the ends of the tie rod and drag link, and these seem to be most vulnerable to wear, resulting in increased play in the steering. You can't see the ball joints in this diagram, but quality of ball joints varies dramatically. For example, stock ball joints in the Ram 2500/3500 and stock ball joints in Jeep Wranglers tend to wear quickly, while some aftermarket ball joints (e.g. Carli, Dynatrac) are much more robust, and come with a lifetime warranty.

View attachment 7803080
Info on Jeep JK ball joints here (location and function similar to Grenadier): https://jeeprunner.com/best-jeep-jk-ball-joints/

In a Jeep Wrangler, the amount of play in the steering can be reduced by increasing the strength of the steering box and its mountings, the strength of the front end components (tie rod, drag link, track bar), increasing the quality of the ball joints, and the quality of the bushings. All of this can be done through the aftermarket, due to the number of people who up-size their tires.

Most of the front end components in the Grenadier seem very strong, so there probably won't be much room for improving those. We know nothing about the quality of the ball joints and bushings, so that - at this point - is an unknown variable. There may be aftermarket solutions to play in the Grenadier's steering, or most buyers may decide that the amount of play is acceptable.

Loving the conversation going on in the forums! Learning so much! Thanks all.

 

[bemax]

Also in the mix is that the majority of the reviewers are car people, not necessarily 4X4 people. How used to driving with very high profile tires are they, the higher the profile the more vague the steering, its not a huge impact but it all adds up.

Not only the high profile but as well the high side walls of the tyres have an impact.

 

[CEMechanic]

I have really appreciated members of this forum from all over the world participating in English - so I'd like to try to help out.

"Play" in the steering refers to the following: you are driving straight down the road with no intention of turning left or right, but you can move the steering wheel a little bit to the left and a little bit to the right without it have any effect on the front tires - they still point straight.

The opposite of play is "tight" steering, in which any small input to the steering wheel directly results in change to the direction of the front tires.

Vehicles with "rack and pinion steering" tend to have tight steering, while vehicles with "recirculating ball steering" tend to have some play. This is by design. When driving a sports car through turns, one wants tight steering. However, when off road, tight steering results in too much feedback being delivered from the front tires to the steering wheel, in the form of the steering wheel violently jerking in one direction or another. This is exhausting for the driver, and can even result in the driver suffering minor injury. Recirculating ball steering reduces this feedback. In addition, recirculating ball steering is much more durable when subjected to off road use.

How much play there is can be measured (roughly). Can you turn the wheel an inch in one direction without it affecting the tires? Two inches?

How much play is acceptable is subjective, and varies from one person to another.

In a recirculating ball set up, play can increase over time as various parts in the steering system get worn: the steering box itself, the ball joints, and the bushings in the front end are all prime candidates for wear. The rate at which these things get worn depends on how the vehicle is driven. Putting larger tires on a vehicle dramatically increases the rate at which they will get worn.

The diagram below is from a Jeep JK, but the set up is quite similar to the Grenadier. There are bushings at the ends of the tie rod and drag link, and these seem to be most vulnerable to wear, resulting in increased play in the steering. You can't see the ball joints in this diagram, but quality of ball joints varies dramatically. For example, stock ball joints in the Ram 2500/3500 and stock ball joints in Jeep Wranglers tend to wear quickly, while some aftermarket ball joints (e.g. Carli, Dynatrac) are much more robust, and come with a lifetime warranty.

View attachment 7803080
Info on Jeep JK ball joints here (location and function similar to Grenadier): https://jeeprunner.com/best-jeep-jk-ball-joints/

In a Jeep Wrangler, the amount of play in the steering can be reduced by increasing the strength of the steering box and its mountings, the strength of the front end components (tie rod, drag link, track bar), increasing the quality of the ball joints, and the quality of the bushings. All of this can be done through the aftermarket, due to the number of people who up-size their tires.

Most of the front end components in the Grenadier seem very strong, so there probably won't be much room for improving those. We know nothing about the quality of the ball joints and bushings, so that - at this point - is an unknown variable. There may be aftermarket solutions to play in the Grenadier's steering, or most buyers may decide that the amount of play is acceptable.

Yes, all possible root causes for play.

If ball joints and linkage bushings are already worn on new cars built for the press release can probably excluded.
By design there will always be some very little play in the recirculating ball unit, otherwise it would bind and feel jerky and the steering wheel cannot be moved lightly.

As mentioned in other posts, axle geometry, especially caster can have an impact on a vehicles ability to hold direction, self centre, and run in a straight line.

The number of revolutions it takes from lock to lock is an indication of the steering being direct (in case of few turns) or indirect (many turns). It does not necessarily be an indication if the steering feels indifferent or the vehicle does not track right.

I am definitely looking forward to a long test drive on road to find out of this is an issue for me or not. Until then we are relying on hearsay opinions as none of us had the chance to take the Grenadier on the road.

What I can confirm from the first corner of my OFF Road test drive is the fact that the test Grenadier I did drive did not self centre enough, at least at the low speeds allowed. Off road this is probably ok, but for me not exactly necessary to this extent in an off-road car. Even all wheel drive tipper trucks have a way of making road holding easy these days. I’d be happy is the Grenadier would show similar character. Not like a sports car, but like a nice stable buddy.

 

[trobex]

Not only the high profile but as well the high side walls of the tyres have an impact.

Maybe they drove to the Test Sites/Excursion centres in their Jags, then hopped in the GREN and were like, "omg... why is the steering different !!!".

 

[DaveB]

Yes, all possible root causes for play.

If ball joints and linkage bushings are already worn on new cars built for the press release can probably excluded.
By design there will always be some very little play in the recirculating ball unit, otherwise it would bind and feel jerky and the steering wheel cannot be moved lightly.

As mentioned in other posts, axle geometry, especially caster can have an impact on a vehicles ability to hold direction, self centre, and run in a straight line.

The number of revolutions it takes from lock to lock is an indication of the steering being direct (in case of few turns) or indirect (many turns). It does not necessarily be an indication if the steering feels indifferent or the vehicle does not track right.

I am definitely looking forward to a long test drive on road to find out of this is an issue for me or not. Until then we are relying on hearsay opinions as none of us had the chance to take the Grenadier on the road.

What I can confirm from the first corner of my OFF Road test drive is the fact that the test Grenadier I did drive did not self centre enough, at least at the low speeds allowed. Off road this is probably ok, but for me not exactly necessary to this extent in an off-road car. Even all wheel drive tipper trucks have a way of making road holding easy these days. I’d be happy is the Grenadier would show similar character. Not like a sports car, but like a nice stable buddy.

Maybe they drove to the Test Sites/Excursion centres in their Jags, then hopped in the GREN and were like, "omg... why is the steering different !!!".

They were sitting by the fire in their free hotel, drinking free booze, after finishing a free meal, when one person said....that steering is not as precise as my Range Rover loan vehicle........they all agreed and so it went from there.

 

[MrMike]

Thanks all for sharing.

I am not concerned about the number of rotations, but the play.

With no first hand experience with the Gren on road, I try to figure what the play thing is about?

Are those reviewers simply missing the direct straight connection via a pinion in general or is it more around the car drifting sideways whilst you keep the wheel straight? So you keep slightly working the steering in order not to „lose“ contact all the time.

Some sounded like the latter, which is scary.

Sorry if I am not clear here. Probably would not even know how to put this in my mother tongue.

there's no "play" as such in the steering, there is constant resistance so it doesn't feel loose, it just not as direct as rack and pinion. Difficult to explain but I don't think you'll find it worrying just feels like you need to turn more to do the same turn in a rack and pinion vehicle.
Let me know if you want me to send you a video of me driving a new 70 series (same setup steering wise), I couldn't post it as the file was too big, but it will give you an idea on the wheel action needed to drive around town

Sorry if I've repeated what other's have mentioned in the thread

 

[grenadierboy]

Fully agree with Mr Mike.

Recirculating ball steering can not provide the same level of direct feel for the road that R&P does

The MB G Wagen had recirculating ball steering from the start (1979) until only a couple of years ago, when it went to rack & pinion.

My G (1983) had some "play" in the steering but, that was more due to worn linkages/bushings etc.

 

[DenisM]

Excellent.

Thanks for taking the time.

So it seems Citroen managed to give me the RBS play on a pinion setup for all these years!

I think I am good here and all those reviewers pointing this out to be a risk are simply used to setups I never owned.

At the risk of repeating once too often ... forgive the bold type--
The Road and Track reviewer provides a "master class" description of how to steer a recirculating ball steering 4x4 on a winding road, using the Grenadier as the example... post #6 https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/on-road-handling.12411159/#post-1333151224


If you’ve spent much time in lifted body-on-frames, you’ll understand the patience required to wrestle off-roaders through corners smoothly. Confident steering inputs are key. Here, the Grenadier uses recirculating-ball steering with hydraulic assist at 3.85 turns lock-to-lock. That steering, plus a relatively sophisticated suspension paired to the stick axles (in this case, progressive coil springs, anti-roll bars, and a five-link setup) means decently quick turn-in on corner entry and stable roadholding through Scotland’s brisk, tight backroads.

Navigating those corners at speed does take some skill, as mentioned. But if you’re willing to give the Grenadier the type of smooth inputs the steering and chassis ask for, the truck returns in kind. Into tight bends, you look all the way through the corner and make one smooth initial steering input. Wait a second for the body to set on all that suspension travel, but keep your hands steady in the process and don’t disrupt longitudinal stability with harsh brake or throttle inputs. By waiting out that half-second when the suspension is damping that body motion, you can point the Grenadier through any corner like you would a sport sedan...

Same technique goes for Toyota 70 series, classic Defenders, "Gx" series Patrols...
This fella knows his driving craft.... he displays capability several levels above the vast majority of the rest of the so-called motoring journalists. How often have you read/observed the automotive companies have spent literally billions of $/Euro trying to replicate "car-like" handling in large 4x4 vehicles ...they have dumbed down the driver 'engagement' factor with the vehicle..... when all that is really required is some patience to develop the skill to recognise the realities of the laws of physics!
the moral of the story: you can have a lot of driving fun with a little play!
Enjoy your Grenadier!