Steering- example- 70 series Landcruiser

[Krabby]

From the vantage point of someone who's never been in either a Grenadier or Land Cruiser 70 Series, what do they have in common, and more importantly, what separates them? This thread began as a discussion about steering, but for those of you who've driven both, what's your take?

 

[globalgregors]

From the vantage point of someone who's never been in either a Grenadier or Land Cruiser 70 Series, what do they have in common, and more importantly, what separates them? This thread began as a discussion about steering, but for those of you who've driven both, what's your take?

Grenadier is a vastly more pleasant driving experience for mine, I think down to the suspension configuration and the excellent Eibach progressive springs.
LC70 unloaded is somewhat more ute-like - overly rigid at the back end, it needs to be at least partly weighted before it settles in a manner equivalent to the Grenadier unloaded.

I didn’t drive the Grenadier on soft surfaces but I think this is where one might find the greatest difference. The V8 LC70 has a rear track ~100mm narrower than the front. I don’t find it noticeable on firm surfaces but on soft it bounces off the sides of the ruts left by the front wheels which gives it a squirrelly motion.

Steering I think is pretty similar setting aside the more favourable suspension dynamics described above. Grenadier wheel is nicer in the hand.

Noise is more intrusive in the LC than the Grenadier. Creature comforts superior in the Gren.

LC70 does I think feel more durable than the Grenadier. They both can take a bearing but the LC feels like it’ll survive the apocalypse.

Interested to hear other views. I’ve only driven bog standard (wrt engine/suspension) mine site vehicles or highly modded outback tourers - never owned one for myself.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

there's no "play" as such in the steering, there is constant resistance so it doesn't feel loose, it just not as direct as rack and pinion. Difficult to explain but I don't think you'll find it worrying just feels like you need to turn more to do the same turn in a rack and pinion vehicle.
Let me know if you want me to send you a video of me driving a new 70 series (same setup steering wise), I couldn't post it as the file was too big, but it will give you an idea on the wheel action needed to drive around town

Sorry if I've repeated what other's have mentioned in the thread

Thanks for volunteering, @MrMike send me the video to the admin@theineosforum.com address and I'll get it uploaded to the site.

 

[stickshifter]

Grenadier is a vastly more pleasant driving experience for mine, I think down to the suspension configuration and the excellent Eibach progressive springs.
LC70 unloaded is somewhat more ute-like - overly rigid at the back end, it needs to be at least partly weighted before it settles in a manner equivalent to the Grenadier unloaded.

I didn’t drive the Grenadier on soft surfaces but I think this is where one might find the greatest difference. The V8 LC70 has a rear track ~100mm narrower than the front. I don’t find it noticeable on firm surfaces but on soft it bounces off the sides of the ruts left by the front wheels which gives it a squirrelly motion.

Steering I think is pretty similar setting aside the more favourable suspension dynamics described above. Grenadier wheel is nicer in the hand.

Noise is more intrusive in the LC than the Grenadier. Creature comforts superior in the Gren.

LC70 does I think feel more durable than the Grenadier. They both can take a bearing but the LC feels like it’ll survive the apocalypse.

Interested to hear other views. I’ve only driven bog standard (wrt engine/suspension) mine site vehicles or highly modded outback tourers - never owned one for myself.

The difference in ride quality has a lot to do with the LC 70 having leaf springs in the rear, while the Grenadier has coil springs at all four corners. Leaf springs, when they are set-up for carrying high payload, ride really rough when the vehicle is empty.

Back in the day (all the old original 4x4s like Jeep CJ-5, CJ-7, LC FJ-40, old Defenders, etc.), 4x4s had leaf springs at all four corners. In the first wave of "modernization" they ditched the front leaf springs for coil springs, and in the second wave of modernization, vehicles that are trying to maximize ride comfort and off-road articulation ditched the leaf springs in the rear as well, and have coil springs at all four corners (Jeep Wrangler, Ford Bronco, and now most 1500 pickup trucks are transitioning to coil springs front and rear - Ram started this a few years back, and the new Ford Raptor just ditched its rear leaf springs for coils). Leaf springs can carry massive weight, and are durable, but do not articulate (or "flex") well, and ride very rough when the vehicle is unloaded.

This is an aftermarket suspension kit for a LC 70 series. I know most people on here know this, but for the folks new to 4x4, the black things are the rear leaf springs, the blue things are the front coil springs.

 

[Krabby]

I'm familiar with leaf springs in that my Series trucks had them (as an aside, Defenders are coilers, Series trucks are leaf) and strongly considered parabolics for my 88. Never did though.

 

[Scan4]

I have really appreciated members of this forum from all over the world participating in English - so I'd like to try to help out.

"Play" in the steering refers to the following: you are driving straight down the road with no intention of turning left or right, but you can move the steering wheel a little bit to the left and a little bit to the right without it have any effect on the front tires - they still point straight.

The opposite of play is "tight" steering, in which any small input to the steering wheel directly results in change to the direction of the front tires.

Vehicles with "rack and pinion steering" tend to have tight steering, while vehicles with "recirculating ball steering" tend to have some play. This is by design. When driving a sports car through turns, one wants tight steering. However, when off road, tight steering results in too much feedback being delivered from the front tires to the steering wheel, in the form of the steering wheel violently jerking in one direction or another. This is exhausting for the driver, and can even result in the driver suffering minor injury. Recirculating ball steering reduces this feedback. In addition, recirculating ball steering is much more durable when subjected to off road use.

How much play there is can be measured (roughly). Can you turn the wheel an inch in one direction without it affecting the tires? Two inches?

How much play is acceptable is subjective, and varies from one person to another.

In a recirculating ball set up, play can increase over time as various parts in the steering system get worn: the steering box itself, the ball joints, and the bushings in the front end are all prime candidates for wear. The rate at which these things get worn depends on how the vehicle is driven. Putting larger tires on a vehicle dramatically increases the rate at which they will get worn.

The diagram below is from a Jeep JK, but the set up is quite similar to the Grenadier. There are bushings at the ends of the tie rod and drag link, and these seem to be most vulnerable to wear, resulting in increased play in the steering. You can't see the ball joints in this diagram, but quality of ball joints varies dramatically. For example, stock ball joints in the Ram 2500/3500 and stock ball joints in Jeep Wranglers tend to wear quickly, while some aftermarket ball joints (e.g. Carli, Dynatrac) are much more robust, and come with a lifetime warranty.

View attachment 7803080
Info on Jeep JK ball joints here (location and function similar to Grenadier): https://jeeprunner.com/best-jeep-jk-ball-joints/

In a Jeep Wrangler, the amount of play in the steering can be reduced by increasing the strength of the steering box and its mountings, the strength of the front end components (tie rod, drag link, track bar), increasing the quality of the ball joints, and the quality of the bushings. All of this can be done through the aftermarket, due to the number of people who up-size their tires.

Most of the front end components in the Grenadier seem very strong, so there probably won't be much room for improving those. We know nothing about the quality of the ball joints and bushings, so that - at this point - is an unknown variable. There may be aftermarket solutions to play in the Grenadier's steering, or most buyers may decide that the amount of play is acceptable.

Thanks for Explanation!

 

[stickshifter]

I'm familiar with leaf springs in that my Series trucks had them (as an aside, Defenders are coilers, Series trucks are leaf) and strongly considered parabolics for my 88. Never did though.

Does your AT4 have leafs or coils in the rear? Sorry - off topic.

 

[Krabby]

Does your AT4 have leafs or coils in the rear? Sorry - off topic.

Yes. IFS/coils in front, leafs in the rear. It's interesting that companies are making PUs with coil rears because it both makes sense and at the same time, little sense. I had a Gen 2 Raptor and it was rear leaf, but it's now coil - which makes sense given the "purpose" of the truck; sure it's payload is reduced, but suspension travel and tunability is light years beyond leafs, and the Raptor is a performance truck. My AT4 (how do I miss thee) made sense with leafs because even though it had off-road chops, it was still a truck and it's payload and towing capabilities were not sacrificed for performance. On the other side, for lots of folks, the bed is used for bags of mulch, a few sheets of plywood, and whatever else is needed for the honey-do list, and so ride comfort and quality can take a front seat over payload, hence the coils.

 

[DaveB]

From the vantage point of someone who's never been in either a Grenadier or Land Cruiser 70 Series, what do they have in common, and more importantly, what separates them? This thread began as a discussion about steering, but for those of you who've driven both, what's your take?

If you look at the 70 series as being an updated Defender then the Grenadier is an updated 70 series.
very simplistic view but I think it fits.

 

[emax]

If have driven many kinds of cars and steering constructions. Here's my take:

SLK: Very direct and precise steering. You catch every curve exactly as you steer, and you can precisely determine where the line is, centimeter by centimeter, at all speeds. A real joy if you like snappy driving and tight curves.

Citroen 2CV: It doesn't really matter how you steer, somehow you get around the bend. Strongly understeering, but this can also be due to the fact that the car does not do at first what you thought it would.

MB W203: has a so-called "parametric steering" (an optional feature), which varies the hydraulic support and the steering ratio depending on the speed. Very comfortable, good feedback and precise.

MB 813/913: 7.5 ton and 9 ton Mercedes trucks from the 80s. I drove them as a student many years ago, partly with 11 tons of trailer load, around 20 tons total. As heavy trucks, they had recirculating ball steerings. Just as described in the videos, it was not as tight as passenger car steerings are. But: I quickly got used to it, so that I could also drive those trucks quite briskly around the curves after a while.

Over time, this burns itself into the brain, so that you no longer even notice the differences if you don't have a direct comparison. For me, on the usual 250 km of country road and 200 km of highway every day, it was just "normal" in the end. Habituation, or rather training, evens out the differences.

I drove about 45,000 km in Darmstadt alone (pure city traffic), and a six-figure number of km to other destinations, highways as well as country and mountain roads. Zero problem, and often faster in the turns than the passenger cars around me. Mainly a matter of getting used to it. The brain makes the "play" go away because you automatically compensate for it quite quickly when driving.

This paid off later with my W460 G-Wagon: It drove like a dodgem-car for me.

I am looking forward to the Grenadier and its steering.

 

[DaveB]

This is a good example of what you need to do when you buy a brand new 70 series.
Won't have that problem with a Grenadier

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FewAY8wmT5s

 

[stickshifter]

This is a good example of what you need to do when you buy a brand new 70 series.
Won't have that problem with a Grenadier

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FewAY8wmT5s

Lots of people do the same thing with a Wrangler. I really love Wranglers, but there are multiple issues with them. I was willing to put up with these issues - and / or resolve them through my own labor and spending - but not at the current sticker price. Wranglers have become overpriced when you think about what you get and what you don't get. When they were "relatively" cheap it was all good fun, and you put up with the loose steering, the cabin noise, the under-powered engine at elevation, the water running off the roof into the car when you open the door in the rain, the terrible defroster that will allow - in very cold weather - frost to build up on the inside of the windshield. It was easy to dismiss these things when the vehicles were cheap, and just say "Its a Jeep thing". It was also a fun hobby figuring out how to fix them. But at the current price point - no thanks.

 

[DaveB]

Lots of people do the same thing with a Wrangler. I really love Wranglers, but there are multiple issues with them. I was willing to put up with these issues - and / or resolve them through my own labor and spending - but not at the current sticker price. Wranglers have become overpriced when you think about what you get and what you don't get. When they were "relatively" cheap it was all good fun, and you put up with the loose steering, the cabin noise, the under-powered engine at elevation, the water running off the roof into the car when you open the door in the rain, the terrible defroster that will allow - in very cold weather - frost to build up on the inside of the windshield. It was easy to dismiss these things when the vehicles were cheap, and just say "Its a Jeep thing". It was also a fun hobby figuring out how to fix them. But at the current price point - no thanks.

Yes, I ruled them out after two test drives.
The 70 series is crazy price here so the Grenadier in a dual cab ute will be a bargain at $120,000

 

[Tomo]

Here is a video I took of a brand new 79 series LC
Same steering as the IG 4+ turns lock to lock and I have absolutely no problems coming from my 200 LC with 3 turns and rack and pinion steering. Yes its not as direct but to say its not great is IMO incorrect

I have a 1999 Hilux and have 4 full turns lock to lock and the steering does have some play, I also have a 1957 Mercedes 190 and that has a lot of play in the steering so I am not worried about the IG steering it will probably feel like driving a sports car for me

 

[Tazzieman]

RBS in the Grenadier is a Feature not a Fault . End of story

 

[DaveB]

RBS in the Grenadier is a Feature not a Fault . End of story

And so agrees everyone with a fully functioning brain

 

[Tazzieman]

And so agrees everyone with a fully functioning brain

The biggest critic in many ways is Sir Jim. If he drove a proto and hated some feature , very likely he would let them know!

 

[trobex]

The Gren steering seems to be an odd thing to come about in discussion. I found after 3 drives that it to be direct enough... and only got a chance to do two small stints on the bitumen at about 300m in length. My first comments on steering is that it felt soft... as in... when you move off centre line the car does turn with it but there is no feedback or resistance so it feels slack... not true. It moves... the vehicle turns... but it is 'soft' to touch. Wont be an issue with anyone.

The RHF footrest though... lol!!! If you can deal with the footrest than the steering is bloody 1st class precision gold IMO!!!

 

[stickshifter]

Yes, I ruled them out after two test drives.
The 70 series is crazy price here so the Grenadier in a dual cab ute will be a bargain at $120,000

View attachment 7803202View attachment 7803203View attachment 7803204

Hey Dave,
But to be fair, you are showing 70-series that have significant aftermarket modifications - right? What is the sticker price on a stock 70-series ute? Is it a whole lot different from the proposed price for the Grenadier ute? Just curious, as I can't buy either here in the U.S.

 

[DaveB]

Het Dave,
But to be fair, you are showing 70-series that have significant aftermarket modifications - right? What is the sticker price on a stock 70-series ute? Is it a whole lot different from the proposed price for the Grenadier ute? Just curious, as I can't buy either here in the U.S.

You can't buy them in Australia either.
Order books are closed and they are playing the old market price game.
So you ay have ordered a certain spec and price vehicle, but when it gets time to accept delivery they can change the features and vary the pricing to market price, which could be double what you ordered it at.
The GXL Dual cab chassis is most common choice to start from.
As the name suggests that doesn't include the tray on the back.
That is an optional extra
The crash test rating runs out at the end of the year and to get around it they have changed the load rating from 3500to 3510 kgs so it is now a light truck. Grenadier is 3550 kgs so it is also a light truck
Then you have to do after market mods before first registration if you want to use it seriously.
When they decided to put the V8 in it they couldn't get it in, so they widened the front axle by 100mm/4", but they left the rear axle unchanged.
It doesn't come with sound deadening so you have to add that yourself.
6" panel doesn't come with apple carplay or android and only has 2 speakers so it all needs to be replaced.
Vast majority are purchased by mining companies who spend about an extra $100K modifying them and they last 2-3 years