Steering and Poor Stability

[Tom109]

Basically, after wheel alignment. Steering angle sensor is usually required to reset to stop warning lights appearing on the dash. Steering angle, ADAS, ABS sensor are all interlinked. Most cars require diagnostic equipment to reset. Some cars are self calibrating. However, if it’s a tiny adjustment, sometimes you can get away with it.

What Skydance said. Much more precision than I was able to muster.

Thanks - I was not even aware of this!

 

[Aussie Battler]

Holman Motorcars in St. Louis quoted me a price of $ 650.00 to align my wheels. Other shops refuse because they are afraid that the software programs on the car might be affected, and they have no idea what to then do.

Had mine done for $77AUD ,reset the castor to max spec within .1 of a degree either side checked rear alignment and did some minor adjustments , went from a very ordinary vehicle to something aproaching very good . Best $77 I ever spent . No software rest no lights no problems

 

[Znarfgh]

Had mine done for $77AUD ,reset the castor to max spec within .1 of a degree either side checked rear alignment and did some minor adjustments , went from a very ordinary vehicle to something aproaching very good . Best $77 I ever spent . No software rest no lights no problems

Who did you use?

 

[Tazzieman]

Who did you use?

An honest man!
As for the jokers who quoted our northern hemispherical man above $650 (USD!)
No words.

 

[anand]

Basically, after wheel alignment. Steering angle sensor is usually required to reset to stop warning lights appearing on the dash. Steering angle, ADAS, ABS sensor are all interlinked. Most cars require diagnostic equipment to reset. Some cars are self calibrating. However, if it’s a tiny adjustment, sometimes you can get away with it.

If you have a vehicle that is more or less in spec but needs adjustment (say, after a lift to correct camber/caster/toe, or adjusting caster), resetting the steering angle sensor is rarely needed. This is coming from doing alignments for many years on Euro vehicles with very sensitive steering angle sensors.

If this was the case for all alignments and vehicles, random garages wouldn't have alignment machines

 

[Aussie Battler]

Who did you use?

Horsham tyres and batteries

 

[parb]

I've fitted the fox steering damper on my car. While I've had it installed for a month I haven't done a long trip until this weekend. And I haven't been out in rocks and trails that require lockers and low gear. That is until this weekend.

On the highway I love my fox damper, it makes the steering effort so much better in my opinion. Less active input required, less wandering. I haven't yet done a steering alignment, nothing has been done to its steering or suspension after my car came from the dealer.

On the trail, especially a rocky trail with lots of maneuvering with feedback from rocks through the steering is a different story. I think the factory dampener is a bit more suitable when you have lots of feedback from the rocks into the steering system. I think I get less feedback from the rocks to the steering wheel with the factory damper, quite a bit less.

Its a decent difference but the fox dampener is dampening feedback enough on the trail for my needs, and I'm not as hardcore as some of the other owners. I doubt that I'll change change back to factory dampener. The fox dampener is pretty good and I don't think I miss the factory damper.

TL;DR
I do much driving on pavement, more so than on technical trails, I think the fox dampener is the better choice for me. If I would do most of my driving on technical trails or even mostly on unpaved roads then I think that the factory dampener is a good choice.

I got my fox, non adjustable dampener from agile off-road. Super easy install.
My few cents

 

[Clark Kent]

I've fitted the fox steering damper on my car. While I've had it installed for a month I haven't done a long trip until this weekend. And I haven't been out in rocks and trails that require lockers and low gear. That is until this weekend.

On the highway I love my fox damper, it makes the steering effort so much better in my opinion. Less active input required, less wandering. I haven't yet done a steering alignment, nothing has been done to its steering or suspension after my car came from the dealer.

On the trail, especially a rocky trail with lots of maneuvering with feedback from rocks through the steering is a different story. I think the factory dampener is a bit more suitable when you have lots of feedback from the rocks into the steering system. I think I get less feedback from the rocks to the steering wheel with the factory damper, quite a bit less.

TL;DR
I do much driving on pavement, more so than on technical trails, I think the fox dampener is the better choice for me. If I would do most of my driving on technical trails or even mostly on unpaved roads then I think that the factory dampener is a good choice.

I got my fox, non adjustable dampener from agile off-road. Super easy install.
My few cents

Hi @parb. Thanks for your input.
It's a great discussion. I have stayed out of it so far but the reports of undesirable on-road effects of aftermarket dampeners and your observations have got me hooked

I have read a few comments about less wandering/better tracking on road with an aftermarket dampener fitted. Wandering and tracking are products of steering geometry and correct wheel alignment - primarily the castor and toe angles. The steering dampener has no control over these things.

I contend that the stiff factory dampener is causing drivers to overcorrect when driving along a straight line which is giving the appearance of wandering. This is because our years of acquired muscle memory is not calibrated for the Grenadier.

The stiff factory dampener (and the slow action of recirculating ball steering versus rack and pinion) requires some retraining of muscle memory. Every steering input needs to overcome the stiffness of the dampener. On road, we're using muscle memory as a form of steering autopilot to hold our position in a lane as a subconscious effort. Our brain assesses the road picture and makes small muscle inputs to hold road position. If our brain doesn't 'see' the result it was expecting, our muscle memory pushes a bit harder and turns a bit more. If the error is great enough we will make a conscious effort to fix it.
It's this difference between the effort expected and the effect produced that is throwing our muscle memory out of calibration while we come to terms with the stiff dampener. You said it above: With no other changes to the vehicle a lighter dampener means less driver input and less wandering. That's a human-in-the-loop issue.

Those who are at peace with the factory dampener have likely adapted their muscle memory and didn't even notice it. Others, often in the early stage of ownership and driving adaptation, will replace their dampener to restore steering action they know and prefer, but there is a comprise when off-road and potentially a reduction of on-road stability according to some reports of death-wobble.

Put bluntly: I think the problem and solution sit with the driver, not the vehicle.
Just my $0.02.

 

[Tom109]

@Clark Kent - Well said!

 

[Mountain4x4]

Funny we added the lift and 35s and the alignment seems fine, we never had a chance to align it.

 

[parb]

@Clark Kent you could be very well right that it is lack of muscle memory. I drove 1,200 miles in my Grenadier the first 2 weeks of ownership but I didn't observe much change. I certainly felt like I was over correcting and had to actively work the car back to center. I also thought it required decent amount of force to input angle torque into the steering system.

I have a 1972 bone stock GMC Jimmy. I feel that there is less effort in that truck to keep it centered although I think it shares many similarities in the effort it takes to steer that vehicle with the Grenadier (for the record I think the grenadier is much better).

Having said that, if this is just muscle memory and I can't develop that skill after 1,200 miles then I think I'm even happier with the fact that fox dampers exists.

 

[Clark Kent]

@Clark Kent you could be very well right that it is lack of muscle memory. I drove 1,200 miles in my Grenadier the first 2 weeks of ownership but I didn't observe much change. I certainly felt like I was over correcting and had to actively work the car back to center. I also thought it required decent amount of force to input angle torque into the steering system.

I have a 1972 bone stock GMC Jimmy. I feel that there is less effort in that truck to keep it centered although I think it shares many similarities in the effort it takes to steer that vehicle with the Grenadier (for the record I think the grenadier is much better).

Having said that, if this is just muscle memory and I can't develop that skill after 1,200 miles then I think I'm even happier with the fact that fox dampers exists.

It's possible that your classic GMC Saginaw system is over boosted as was the trend back then.
Key here is that you, me and others are in something we feel comfortable and safe to drive. If that requires a dampener change then awesome. I appreciate you highlighting that it's not all positives. Eyes wide open is the go for anyone contemplating similar. That's why we're discussing this stuff

 

[bigleonski]

My wife finds driving the grenny more tiring. I’ll admit more micro input required but it doesn’t bother me.
The only time I’ve been a bit crossed up and surprised was doing 110km around a sweeper and had the bitumen road busted up at the apex. She got the shakes a bit more than I would have expected my 200 series would have, but I think I probably over corrected as mentioned above as well which didn’t help. Nothing life threatening but a brief pucker moment.

 

[Clark Kent]

My wife finds driving the grenny more tiring. I’ll admit more micro input required but it doesn’t bother me.
The only time I’ve been a bit crossed up and surprised was doing 110km around a sweeper and had the bitumen road busted up at the apex. She got the shakes a bit more than I would have expected my 200 series would have, but I think I probably over corrected as mentioned above as well which didn’t help. Nothing life threatening but a brief pucker moment.

Same here. There's a set of ripples on the apex of a bitumen corner near me. If I hit those at the posted speed limit I get kicked offline by the solid axle pounding. IFS has its benefits.
I have a 3000km return trip to Canberra and Melbourne next month. Down the Newall and back up the New England. I don't expect the Grenadier to be as comfortable on that milk run as my earlier vehicles.

 

[bigleonski]

Same here. There's a set of ripples on the apex of a bitumen corner near me. If I hit those at the posted speed limit I get kicked offline by the solid axle pounding. IFS has its benefits.
I have a 3000km return trip to Canberra and Melbourne next month. Down the Newall and back up the New England. I don't expect the Grenadier to be as comfortable on that milk run as my earlier vehicles.

It might surprise you, it certainly did us on the trip up from Melbourne using country back roads. Our end of day feels were better than a similar trip in the 200. I do believe 36-37psi is a much better option than 39-40psi though (which I am used to using). I’m surprised it makes a difference but I think it drifts or skits a bit in the twisties at 40 cold.

 

[AMan]

I'm in the UK. My vehicle is four months old. I was expecting to have to get used to the steering system from all the reviews. The stability at anything over 60mph feels unstable, but I thought it was just a characteristic and got used to driving slower, especially on motorways. I've got a loan car as mine is in for the software update and a few other things. The loaner stability is much better than mine, and it felt okay even at 80 miles per hour. My steering feels to have a bit more play when turning, and the loan car feels much more directional and safe. I'm waiting for the dealer to return, but I am worried that they will say nothing is wrong, and I have to live with it. Any thought on possible problems?

Good to hear this - in a positive way. I’ve seen countless posts about lack of stability and wandering steering. I’ve owned my grenadier for over a year and half now… and I’ve run it at full clock on all kinds of terrain (excluding snow). It’s planted, sure footed and I’m confident at whatever speed… fully loaded or unladen. I run 285/70/17 MTs at 30psi on road most of the time, sometimes 32. Off-road I drop to 25… depending on the terrain I’ve gone down to 18. The only mechanical mod I’ve done so far is the Eibach euro spec winch spring kit.

 

[AMan]

The

Good to hear this - in a positive way. I’ve seen countless posts about lack of stability and wandering steering. I’ve owned my grenadier for over a year and half now… and I’ve run it at full clock on all kinds of terrain (excluding snow). It’s planted, sure footed and I’m confident at whatever speed… fully loaded or unladen. I run 285/70/17 MTs at 30psi on road most of the time, sometimes 32. Off-road I drop to 25… depending on the terrain I’ve gone down to 18. The only mechanical mod I’ve done so far is the Eibach euro spec winch spring kit.

moral of the story is to test the psi that works for you and get your alignment done at the dealer. Before and after every safari I get everything checked by my dealer. We tend to run lower psi in Africa - you’ll rarely see anybody running anything over 33psi here.

 

[crashnburn]

Been driving the IG at 6 months now (5kmiles) and I noticed (even my wife) that the steering has a bit of return now. Driving on highways has improved compared to when we first got it. Has it been broken in? I'm not sure but handling is a bit better now.

 

[Rok_Dr]

I have to agree about muscle retraining. Depending on what you previously drove it can be a lot. In my case aside of steering I also had to get used to driving position/footwell, central instruments, audio/hvac system operation, BMW shifter interlocks and thick B pillars. Took a month or so to get used to it all.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Shopkeep]

Hi @parb. Thanks for your input.
It's a great discussion. I have stayed out of it so far but the reports of undesirable on-road effects of aftermarket dampeners and your observations have got me hooked

I have read a few comments about less wandering/better tracking on road with an aftermarket dampener fitted. Wandering and tracking are products of steering geometry and correct wheel alignment - primarily the castor and toe angles. The steering dampener has no control over these things.

I contend that the stiff factory dampener is causing drivers to overcorrect when driving along a straight line which is giving the appearance of wandering. This is because our years of acquired muscle memory is not calibrated for the Grenadier.

The stiff factory dampener (and the slow action of recirculating ball steering versus rack and pinion) requires some retraining of muscle memory. Every steering input needs to overcome the stiffness of the dampener. On road, we're using muscle memory as a form of steering autopilot to hold our position in a lane as a subconscious effort. Our brain assesses the road picture and makes small muscle inputs to hold road position. If our brain doesn't 'see' the result it was expecting, our muscle memory pushes a bit harder and turns a bit more. If the error is great enough we will make a conscious effort to fix it.
It's this difference between the effort expected and the effect produced that is throwing our muscle memory out of calibration while we come to terms with the stiff dampener. You said it above: With no other changes to the vehicle a lighter dampener means less driver input and less wandering. That's a human-in-the-loop issue.

Those who are at peace with the factory dampener have likely adapted their muscle memory and didn't even notice it. Others, often in the early stage of ownership and driving adaptation, will replace their dampener to restore steering action they know and prefer, but there is a comprise when off-road and potentially a reduction of on-road stability according to some reports of death-wobble.

Put bluntly: I think the problem and solution sit with the driver, not the vehicle.
Just my $0.02.

Maybe, but the factory steering damper on the Grenadier is not neutral. It seems to be pressurised so it always wants to extend to its full length when removed, unlike other dampers which stay at the length you compress or extend them to. While this force is relatively low compared to other forces in the steering mechanism it may be contributing to the wandering?