Sir Jim pours more money into Ineos Automotive.

From the Independent,

Man United owner Sir Jim Ratcliffe pours nearly £600m into his car project
Ineos Automotive, which makes the Grenadier offroader, now owes the rest of Sir Jim’s chemical-making empire €2.43bn after it borrowed €710m more

Howard Mustoe
1 day ago

Business | The Independent

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[Toot]

If memory serves I seem to recall GM filing for Bankruptcy some years ago.
Jaguar would be gone if it wasn't for Landrover sales.
Mazda just took a $4.2 Billion loan in 2020 and is not looking good.
Chrysler & Stellantis are just about finished.
Cadillac will be bankrupt soon
McLaren is only just surviving
Mitsubishi cars will probably only last another year or so.
Volvo just cut off Polestar funding and neither will be around in a couple of years.
Buick ditto
Lucid is in hospital on the pump
Lotus.....
Fiskar
Infiniti
Rivian is looking doubtful
Even Ford is struggling

I’m not sure I got your point: are you saying “all car companies are going bankrupt and humanity is going back to the horse and carriage?”

I don’t cover the auto industry, but generally speaking, I think a lot of the Incumbents are victim of the same hangover that stemmed from covid lunacy/rosé colored glasses as other companies elsewhere in the market. Couple that with what *appeared* to be inelastic pricing power during the peak (aka bending their customers over and focusing on price over volume) and a rush into EVs, then yes lots of companies are struggling. Lucid did just beat their sales forecast but I digress.

The point is all these “where’s the confidence in the company” posts are silly and annoying. If you’re worried about the company, don’t buy the car. This is a brand new company, there are bound to be issues. That said, my MB G63 had electrical issues since day 1 and the interior molded so bad while we were gone for the summer that the insurance company totaled it. Our BMW x5 blew not one, but two engines (within the warranty period) and had door panels pop off when closed hard. Even “high quality” legacy cars have catastrophic issues.

This is Ineos’ version one product. It is much better than other upstart auto companies IMO, they’ve gone from 0 to global distribution effectively overnight, and they have a very well heeled founder and parent company backing them. I wouldn’t judge how the company is doing for 5-7 years. Building takes time and no company ever raises all the capital it needs upfront. Similarly, even wildly profitable companies occasionally raise capital or issue debt. I’m sure Jim and his team planned for this to be a decade long phase 1.

Rant over

 

[DaveB]

I’m not sure I got your point: are you saying “all car companies are going bankrupt and humanity is going back to the horse and carriage?”

I don’t cover the auto industry, but generally speaking, I think a lot of the Incumbents are victim of the same hangover that stemmed from covid lunacy/rosé colored glasses as other companies elsewhere in the market. Couple that with what *appeared* to be inelastic pricing power during the peak (aka bending their customers over and focusing on price over volume) and a rush into EVs, then yes lots of companies are struggling. Lucid did just beat their sales forecast but I digress.

The point is all these “where’s the confidence in the company” posts are silly and annoying. If you’re worried about the company, don’t buy the car. This is a brand new company, there are bound to be issues. That said my MB G63 had electrical issues since day 1 and the interior molded so bad while we were gone for the summer that the insurance company totaled it and our BMW x5 blew not one but two engines (within the warranty period) and had door panels pop off when closed hard. This is Ineos’ version one product. It is much better than other upstart auto companies IMO, they’ve gone from 0 to global distribution effectively overnight, and they have a very well heeled founder and parent company backing them. I wouldn’t judge how the company is doing for 5-7 years. Building takes time and no company ever raises all the capital it needs upfront. Similarly, even wildly profitable companies occasionally raise capital or issue debt. I’m sure Jim and his team planned for this to be a decade long phase 1.

Rant over

I agree with you.
My point I guess was that there are a lot of other car companies, new and old, in far worse condition than Ineos is, so everyone should stop carrying on about them closing their doors just because a supplier is having problems.
If you have one, as I do, then stop worrying about seats.
If you don't have one, then decide to buy one or not to buy one.
Easy.

 

[Toot]

I agree with you.
My point I guess was that there are a lot of other car companies, new and old, in far worse condition than Ineos is, so everyone should stop carrying on about them closing their doors just because a supplier is having problems.
If you have one, as I do, then stop worrying about seats.
If you don't have one, then decide to buy one or not to buy one.
Easy.

Exactly! I’ve been pretty quiet on the whining/ fear mongering stuff but it’s getting harder

 

[Tazzieman]

If you don't have one, then decide to buy one or not to buy one.
Easy.

Germany is pretty confident, but 2025 is not 2024
The Best

 

[Toot]

Anecdotally, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a new car roll out so quickly. I’ve now seen more grenadiers in the wild in the US than Rivian’s, even though Rivian has been in market for much longer here. Tesla took a while even after the initial roadster. I’ve only seen a few Lucid’s.

 

[ADVAW8S]

Anecdotally, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a new car roll out so quickly. I’ve now seen more grenadiers in the wild in the US than Rivian’s, even though Rivian has been in market for much longer here. Tesla took a while even after the initial roadster. I’ve only seen a few Lucid’s.

What would be interesting is seeing the concentration of models. Here in Kirkland Wa, we are surrounded by Rivians, Tesla and some lucids. Currently there are 3 Tesla cyber trucks in the neighborhood. 0 Grenadiers

 

[Braydo]

Exactly! I’ve been pretty quiet on the whining/ fear mongering stuff but it’s getting harder

I’m having the same struggle. There’s been a whole lot of hyperventilation for what amounts to a manufacturing disruption.

So now the business people are doing business things.

As for the rest of us - let’s go for a drive

 

[bigleonski]

I’m having the same struggle. There’s been a whole lot of hyperventilation for what amounts to a manufacturing disruption.

So now the business people are doing business things.

As for the rest of us - let’s go for a drive

I struggle with the fact that Ineos was so reliant on one supplier (if it was in fact Recaro - I’m not sure that has even been proven/confirmed by IA) that they needed to close shop for 3-5 months as a result of non delivery. That smells of poor business planning and risk management. That said, sometimes shit happens and you need to take evasive action and move on.
I take it that’s what IA has done, and hope a global business this large (the group, not IA) has the capacity and capability to hang on for the ride and keep on keeping on.

In the meantime - my IG is dirty from a weekend of camping and a few dirt roads and needs a wash - any volunteers to help me give him a scrub? He’s a bastard to clean.

 

[DaveB]

I’m having the same struggle. There’s been a whole lot of hyperventilation for what amounts to a manufacturing disruption.

So now the business people are doing business things.

As for the rest of us - let’s go for a drive

I just took mine for a drive to the bakery and butcher in Howard.
Then drove back.
It included 8 kms of gravel road each way.
Not really a challenge but a bit of fun.
An old video below but this is the road in question

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqi1XwUAi2w

 

[Toot]

I just took mine for a drive to the bakery and butcher in Howard.
Then drove back.
It included 8 kms of gravel road each way.
Not really a challenge but a bit of fun.
An old video below but this is the road in question

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqi1XwUAi2w

Oh man with the production halt, focus on the cycling team, and poor door seals that seams a bit risky. Better to leave it home, preferably in a climate controlled space.

 

[DaveB]

Oh man with the production halt, focus on the cycling team, and poor door seals that seams a bit risky. Better to leave it home, preferably in a climate controlled space.

Not had any problem with the door seals on mine.
28,000 kms (17,400 miles) and exactly 12 months of driving over roads like this and worse.
Not a spec of dust or water through the seals.
Don't care about the production halt and as for the cyclists..........some clothing choices are a bit questionable for men.
Not to mention those bike seats certainly aren't up to Rec aro standards for comfort.

 

[Tazzieman]

I just took mine for a drive to the bakery and butcher in Howard.

Do they still have a candlestick maker?

 

[255/85]

Do they still have a candlestick maker?

Good god, man. I'd long forgotten that nursery rhyme.

 

[Tazzieman]

Good god, man. I'd long forgotten that nursery rhyme.

The canyon of my mind is a gift that just keeps giving

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

The canyon of my mind is a gift that just keeps giving

You say canyon, others may say gorge.

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

I just took mine for a drive to the bakery and butcher in Howard.
Then drove back.
It included 8 kms of gravel road each way.
Not really a challenge but a bit of fun.
An old video below but this is the road in question

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqi1XwUAi2w

Hey you’re driving on the wrong side of the road!!!!

With that route you need a Grenadier to get back and fourth. I wish I had such daily views. To get those, I have to drive out of my way to get to them.

 

[Tazzieman]

You say canyon, others may say gorge.

As it happens, we drove through Waioeka Gorge today.
Spectacular.

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

As it happens, we drove through Waioeka Gorge today.
Spectacular.

I don’t know if my joke transcended our different cultural saying/meanings, or if I just whiffed it. I was picking at you as you said canyon so I used gorge. To me a canyon is larger/wider while a gorge is steeper/smaller. Probably should have used ravine or gully, but it’s 2am and I’m fighting off the Zzzz monster. Obviously you are a brillant man, you own a Grenadier after all!!

 

[Braydo]

I just took mine for a drive to the bakery and butcher in Howard.
Then drove back.
It included 8 kms of gravel road each way.
Not really a challenge but a bit of fun.
An old video below but this is the road in question

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqi1XwUAi2w

Better than my drive. I drove my son to music lessons. Now I’m sitting in the Grenadier waiting for him because it’s more comfortable sitting here than inside. Nice seats these Recaros…

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

Better than my drive. I drove my son to music lessons. Now I’m sitting in the Grenadier waiting for him because it’s more comfortable sitting here than inside. Nice seats these Recaros…

I have done the same thing many times for various kids activities, and just sat and listened to music or checked text/emails on the phone. The one thing I do wish is that our info screens, even though they are small, were like my Tesla’s in the sense you could watch Netflix or Hulu on it (obviously not able to access those while driving, but for scenarios like these). Yes I can use my phone for that, but would be nice to have little larger screen. I know some of yall have an iPad attached usually by the glove box. Maybe I need to look into doing that as well……..