Postscript on the sale of my Grenadier

[nodric]

For those that read the now tangential thread about selling my Grenadier I thought I'd add a postscript.

Firstly the dealer, Sewell of Plano TX.

Two weeks after I signed the car over to them (Jan 3rd) my finance still has not been paid off and I am now having to actively change them for what happened to my payoff! I spoke the finance company and as of Monday Jan 13th they had not received any monies from the dealer. As of this post (Jan 15th) the finance is still not settled.

I have a DealerTrack (the dealer management system most dealers us) supposed proof of payment they emailed me, but it's as useless as a chocolate teapot as all Santander care about is "show me the money". Let's hope this does not turn into a nightmare!

Anecdote: I heard bad things about Santander being for folks with flaky credit. I had a 815 rating when I took finance. The vehicle was a tax right off, hence finance conserves cashflow. I have no issue with Santander and it seems that was Sewell's default at the time. I was not offered alternatives.

The Haircut

I sold the truck for $71K. It's up for sale for $79,998. I was quite surprised by that. Yes, $9K profit margin for them, but still quite a drop from new, almost $20K retail loss in 11 months. Maybe that's typical or maybe that's good? I don't know.

The ad for it is here 2024 INEOS GRENADIER

• The windshield has not been replaced, yet anyway, so look for stone chips and pitting. I wonder if they have any intention to replace it unless a buyer asks? ~$2300 inc labor.
• Yes, I left the Hi-lift Jack and Rotapax on it for the new owner. I had nowhere to use them and sunk cost fallacy and all that.
• There was a custom floor mat and full custom cargo area liner fitted they seem to have removed. Maybe ask for that if you buy it.
• There are fitted roof rack lights I left on as sunk cost fallacy.

Sunk cost fallacy

The phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial. The time and energy to remove things and try to sell them to recover small amounts of cash was not worth the effort. We are talking a few hundred bucks. That was not enough incentive for me to be bothered.

 

[Zimm]

Asking 79 doesnt mean getting 79.

Santander was the in house 2.9% I believe, at least mine was. Who cares what they specialize in, if they shave 4 points off. I made 4.19% on the money not spent and got a 100k write off.

 

[nodric]

I saw a reply, since deleted, that told me to just go away and stop writing this

I think it is worth informing those that want to learn and be informed of the perils and pitfalls of Ineos ownership, and the treatment and service provided by dealers. Yes, some of the folks in this forum are devotees and will never hear a bad word spoken about the brand of the vehicles, but others, and several have contacted me by DM, are deeply concerned with the issues they are having and the problems getting things resolved, and many do care about the expensive debt they incurred opting into ownership and cannot simply write it off as a troublesome toy. I wish I was that rich.

For those that do care it appears that Sewell paid a third party who is supposed to pay the lien holder and that that process is crap. Apparently there is a 7-10 day delay on DealerTrack paying Santander. Sewell seem to think they are blameless and I am just an annoyance. Some of the devotees will doubtless agree. But it isn't them that are on the hook for the finance as they failed to pay the lien holder as stated in their purchase contract. They paid an intermediary, who as of now, has not paid the lien holder. As a result the payoff amount has increased due to interest charges that accrue normally.

I'm sure it will all be resolved, but this is the we put up with. This is NOT customer first. All they care about is taking your money and then blaming someone of some system for everything they should be accountable for.

If the forum mods want me gone they can delete my account and posts or ask me to do that.

 

[Reducs]

Thanks for posting. I appreciate it.

Also, my Sewell experience was nothing special. Far from Sewell Lexus Fort Worth all those years ago when we bought 2 cars from them. Oh well.

 

[Zimm]

I saw a reply, since deleted, that told me to just go away and stop writing this

I think it is worth informing those that want to learn and be informed of the perils and pitfalls of Ineos ownership, and the treatment and service provided by dealers. Yes, some of the folks in this forum are devotees and will never hear a bad word spoken about the brand of the vehicles, but others, and several have contacted me by DM, are deeply concerned with the issues they are having and the problems getting things resolved, and many do care about the expensive debt they incurred opting into ownership and cannot simply write it off as a troublesome toy. I wish I was that rich.

For those that do care it appears that Sewell paid a third party who is supposed to pay the lien holder and that that process is crap. Apparently there is a 7-10 day delay on DealerTrack paying Santander. Sewell seem to think they are blameless and I am just an annoyance. Some of the devotees will doubtless agree. But it isn't them that are on the hook for the finance as they failed to pay the lien holder as stated in their purchase contract. They paid an intermediary, who as of now, has not paid the lien holder. As a result the payoff amount has increased due to interest charges that accrue normally.

I'm sure it will all be resolved, but this is the we put up with. This is NOT customer first. All they care about is taking your money and then blaming someone of some system for everything they should be accountable for.

If the forum mods want me gone they can delete my account and posts or ask me to do that.

Well, it's something that would have never occurred to me to look into prior to doing what you did, regardless of brand or dealer. Now I know to ask questions about the process. Muchass appreciatedos. (my version of spanglish)

 

[Shopkeep]

I saw a reply, since deleted, that told me to just go away and stop writing this

I think it is worth informing those that want to learn and be informed of the perils and pitfalls of Ineos ownership, and the treatment and service provided by dealers. Yes, some of the folks in this forum are devotees and will never hear a bad word spoken about the brand of the vehicles, but others, and several have contacted me by DM, are deeply concerned with the issues they are having and the problems getting things resolved, and many do care about the expensive debt they incurred opting into ownership and cannot simply write it off as a troublesome toy. I wish I was that rich.

For those that do care it appears that Sewell paid a third party who is supposed to pay the lien holder and that that process is crap. Apparently there is a 7-10 day delay on DealerTrack paying Santander. Sewell seem to think they are blameless and I am just an annoyance. Some of the devotees will doubtless agree. But it isn't them that are on the hook for the finance as they failed to pay the lien holder as stated in their purchase contract. They paid an intermediary, who as of now, has not paid the lien holder. As a result the payoff amount has increased due to interest charges that accrue normally.

I'm sure it will all be resolved, but this is the we put up with. This is NOT customer first. All they care about is taking your money and then blaming someone of some system for everything they should be accountable for.

If the forum mods want me gone they can delete my account and posts or ask me to do that.

But is that a peril or pitfall of Grenadier ownership or a generic car dealer issue? You chose to sell it back to the Ineos dealer but you could have sold it privately, via a different dealer or one of the many car buying companies in the US. Selling any vehicle can be a frustrating process, not sure Ineos or Sewell have a mortgage on that.

 

[Mountain4x4]

My opinion is this is a 1% hard core off roader vehicle. In a perfect world buyers would be screened. The optimal buyer is one willing to deal with new brand teething issues, SERIOUS about off road, AND planning to keep it for 10 years plus, Think about the clowns that paid OVER MSRP for the Cyber Refrigerators, Early Broncos, super cars, EVs in general and way over priced Raptors with as much as 100K mark ups. There are crazy depreciations going on out there. A Grenadier has almost no re-sale history and is not a classic yet. My 2018 PW will be the first vehicle in my life with less then 10-12 years of ownership as it is at 200K already. Also a write off for work. I know I catch hell for saying this is an off-road centric vehicle, but it is. Don't expect re-sale, or a large re-sale market.

 

[Tazzieman]

I know I catch hell for saying this is an off-road centric vehicle, but it is. Don't expect re-sale, or a large re-sale market.

Like many products it is marketed as an aspirational lifestyle vehicle. My guess is that most buyers will only pee around the edges of the offroad lawn.
That said, the 2nd and 3rd hand markets may be where we find true enthusiasts. As long as they can afford maintenance and repairs.

 

[Max]

Like many products it is marketed as an aspirational lifestyle vehicle.

You hit the New Defender on the head for the aspirational lifestyle vehicle. I think they were bought with the believe that the Legendary Defender could be carried by the name...wrong.
In comes the Grenadier under the radar almost subliminally giving us the feeling we found it so we own it and we throw in the lifestyle and then can't wait for the vehicle, that is aspiration...and I still haven't woken

I know I catch hell for saying this is an off-road centric vehicle, but it is. Don't expect re-sale, or a large re-sale market.

Totally agree, IMO I bought a vehicle that is the most capable off-the-shelf vehicle off-road you will find with so much comfort, control and heart.
I have been[solo]in places and situations were the vehicle has more to go then what I have. It is bashed and bruised but still upright.
My Series II LR is having a disc brakes conversion[Land Rover parts] and then she will go to battle again and the Grenadier will be treated with a little more care on our typical Country adventures.

 

[nodric]

My opinion is this is a 1% hard core off roader vehicle. In a perfect world buyers would be screened. The optimal buyer is one willing to deal with new brand teething issues, SERIOUS about off road, AND planning to keep it for 10 years plus, Think about the clowns that paid OVER MSRP for the Cyber Refrigerators, Early Broncos, super cars, EVs in general and way over priced Raptors with as much as 100K mark ups. There are crazy depreciations going on out there. A Grenadier has almost no re-sale history and is not a classic yet. My 2018 PW will be the first vehicle in my life with less then 10-12 years of ownership as it is at 200K already. Also a write off for work. I know I catch hell for saying this is an off-road centric vehicle, but it is. Don't expect re-sale, or a large re-sale market.

I owned numerous Series 2 and 3 vehicles before I went through 10+ years of Defender ownership from TDi to my last 2005 model sold in 2010 before I left for the US. I trialed endless Landies over the years, dropping V8 blocks into my 2A and so on. I gravitated towards the Grenadier for nostalgia reasons as much as anything, and while Land Rover is nowadays, and the early cars needed much TLC, I was not prepared to deal with all the issues on what for many is a luxury price tag, and no I did not see the Grenadier as a luxury vehicle. I made dumb buyer mistakes. I will not be alone in this.

 

[Zimm]

You hit the New Defender on the head for the aspirational lifestyle vehicle. I think they were bought with the believe that the Legendary Defender could be carried by the name...wrong.

But is it? the criticisms of the ND are about it's offroad shortcomings. It's all (yet effective) nanny controls, things like aerodynamics over a usable roof load, all independent for ride over articulation, wheel wells that limit tire size that are shaped to the tire for aesthetics, good nvh, good towing for a consumer product, but yet capable enough for a weekend getaway of second home in the hinterlands. They don't give a shit about any hard core wheeling and don't advert it as such. They don't even want a "jeep" image as it more marketed like the RRC was.

The ND never intended to appeal to the buyer of the gren or defender market. Just look at the "utility" versions. They don't even have steel panels replacing the friggin' rear windows and there's no panel van version. It's the offroaders or farmers buying these that are the pretenders, "aspiring" for the tuck to be what it isn't.

I think overall their product and marketing absolutely nailed their target market. Most of these buyers are people without conception of, or bias based on, the old Defender. The anger is just projection from the small minority of people like us. Hell, I have other offroad trucks that the gren will never match. If the ND had veered into the offroad market a bit more with usable roof, manual mode with real lockers, and could take 35's cleanly, I may have purchased a D90.

 

[Krabby]

But is it? the criticisms of the ND are about it's offroad shortcomings. It's all (yet effective) nanny controls, things like aerodynamics over a usable roof load, all independent for ride over articulation, wheel wells that limit tire size that are shaped to the tire for aesthetics, good nvh, good towing for a consumer product, but yet capable enough for a weekend getaway of second home in the hinterlands. They don't give a shit about any hard core wheeling and don't advert it as such. They don't even want a "jeep" image as it more marketed like the RRC was.

The ND never intended to appeal to the buyer of the gren or defender market. Just look at the "utility" versions. They don't even have steel panels replacing the friggin' rear windows and there's no panel van version. It's the offroaders or farmers buying these that are the pretenders, "aspiring" for the tuck to be what it isn't.

I think overall their product and marketing absolutely nailed their target market. Most of these buyers are people without conception of, or bias based on, the old Defender. The anger is just projection from the small minority of people like us. Hell, I have other offroad trucks that the gren will never match. If the ND had veered into the offroad market a bit more with usable roof, manual mode with real lockers, and could take 35's cleanly, I may have purchased a D90.

As an aside, non NAS versions (at least some countries) had access to panel wagon style Defenders. This cool looking one was at a car show.

For those not in the know, the Wilks brothers were Rover Car Company employees who were the reason Land Rover even exists.

 

[nodric]

But is it? the criticisms of the ND are about it's offroad shortcomings. It's all (yet effective) nanny controls, things like aerodynamics over a usable roof load, all independent for ride over articulation, wheel wells that limit tire size that are shaped to the tire for aesthetics, good nvh, good towing for a consumer product, but yet capable enough for a weekend getaway of second home in the hinterlands. They don't give a shit about any hard core wheeling and don't advert it as such. They don't even want a "jeep" image as it more marketed like the RRC was.

The ND never intended to appeal to the buyer of the gren or defender market. Just look at the "utility" versions. They don't even have steel panels replacing the friggin' rear windows and there's no panel van version. It's the offroaders or farmers buying these that are the pretenders, "aspiring" for the tuck to be what it isn't.

I think overall their product and marketing absolutely nailed their target market. Most of these buyers are people without conception of, or bias based on, the old Defender. The anger is just projection from the small minority of people like us. Hell, I have other offroad trucks that the gren will never match. If the ND had veered into the offroad market a bit more with usable roof, manual mode with real lockers, and could take 35's cleanly, I may have purchased a D90.

I think you make a good point. There was a reason JLR dropped the old Defender, beyond being the inability to import them into to the USA. They were costly to build and were woeful compared to a modern vehicle, albeit always capable off-road, which they were built for, and modern farmers no longer needed the PTO etc.

That then opens up the question that even though Ineos solved some of the issues, comfort, space, and to some degree HVAC, although the jury is out on the latter with its idiosyncrasies, is there enough demand there to sustain a global brand and the annual sales needed to make the company long term viable. Tesla is your poster child for a newbie automotive company and growing pains. Yes, different market segment but same issues of scaling to sell and maintain global sales.

A niche vehicle has a niche market, and despite obsessive fans they are not enough in number to sustain a global automotive business, especially if you intend to keep them for 10 years or more. They need you to flip them every couple of years or lease them, and both those options kill the customization market and personalization of your truck. Once all the fans have got one and mucked about with them then sales decline and service with it and ultimately parts and so on. What happens if they stop making them in a year or 3? Do they gain cult like status and used car pricing like NAS Landies, or something else?

 

[Trialmaster]

It was me who said Go-Away. You had a bad experience and continue to whinge about it. Move on, and get over it.

You made choices, and no one put a gun to your head to buy the Grenadier. The vehicle isn't perfect, but in my experience not many are and I think I've bought 50 brand new cars in my life tome.

 

[Zimm]

I think you make a good point. There was a reason JLR dropped the old Defender, beyond being the inability to import them into to the USA. They were costly to build and were woeful compared to a modern vehicle, albeit always capable off-road, which they were built for, and modern farmers no longer needed the PTO etc.

That then opens up the question that even though Ineos solved some of the issues, comfort, space, and to some degree HVAC, although the jury is out on the latter with its idiosyncrasies, is there enough demand there to sustain a global brand and the annual sales needed to make the company long term viable. Tesla is your poster child for a newbie automotive company and growing pains. Yes, different market segment but same issues of scaling to sell and maintain global sales.

A niche vehicle has a niche market, and despite obsessive fans they are not enough in number to sustain a global automotive business, especially if you intend to keep them for 10 years or more. They need you to flip them every couple of years or lease them, and both those options kill the customization market and personalization of your truck. Once all the fans have got one and mucked about with them then sales decline and service with it and ultimately parts and so on. What happens if they stop making them in a year or 3? Do they gain cult like status and used car pricing like NAS Landies, or something else?

The short of it, I think, is the Gren would have nailed its target market had it dropped the S in SUV and was completely utilitarian, like the G 461. Cubbies, mechanical hvac controls, slots for radios and unused dash switch locations for add on crap. The luxury version would have evolved organically, like the Gwagon, once volume sales were established and tooling paid down. Nantucket was the place 110nas’s went to die in the hands of housefrau’s and I wish Ineos would have approached the roll out with a plan to evolve up to that instead of trying to be all things, and falling short as nothing can be all things.

There still isn’t a new car on the market that comes close though, so, I guess I’ve committed to jamming this square peg into my round hole…. Hm. I could have phrased that better.

As for YOU and your issues, I just think you turned out to be softer than you thought you were, in your advancing age…

 

[Krabby]

I think you make a good point. There was a reason JLR dropped the old Defender, beyond being the inability to import them into to the USA. They were costly to build and were woeful compared to a modern vehicle, albeit always capable off-road, which they were built for, and modern farmers no longer needed the PTO etc.

That then opens up the question that even though Ineos solved some of the issues, comfort, space, and to some degree HVAC, although the jury is out on the latter with its idiosyncrasies, is there enough demand there to sustain a global brand and the annual sales needed to make the company long term viable. Tesla is your poster child for a newbie automotive company and growing pains. Yes, different market segment but same issues of scaling to sell and maintain global sales.

A niche vehicle has a niche market, and despite obsessive fans they are not enough in number to sustain a global automotive business, especially if you intend to keep them for 10 years or more. They need you to flip them every couple of years or lease them, and both those options kill the customization market and personalization of your truck. Once all the fans have got one and mucked about with them then sales decline and service with it and ultimately parts and so on. What happens if they stop making them in a year or 3? Do they gain cult like status and used car pricing like NAS Landies, or something else?

Great points. Based on sales (and sightings) JLR hit it out of the park with the ND. Certainly not my cup of tea and I think it would have made a great new Discovery model (my have they killed that model over the last few gens). But you have to hand it to them, they were spot on with their market research and customer base. It is the later that I think IA missed the mark on some.

I agree that the proper Defenders in America have, as you noted, gained cult status. But it didn't start that way here - it started off slowly. LRNA struggled to sell Defenders off the lots in the 90s for a number of reasons, but by the early 2000s they were ridiculously priced second hand. I remember looking at a '95 90 in 2001 or 2002 and the dealer wanted $60 grand for it - it had nearly 100,000 miles, had rust issues, and was beat to shit . Around that same time I visited the UK and brand new 90s - even with a poor exchange rate and VAT were less than $30K. Too bad I couldn't fit one in my suitcase!

I'd guess that our non-NA members see proper Defenders differently than we do. I always liken LRs in the UK to Jeeps in the US. Relative to their respective home markets, they're all over the place, have looked the same forever, are pretty generic, and cheap as chips. The number of Wranglers I see is mind blowing; my brother recently got a Jeep and has said it's tiring having to wave at every other car! Granted I live on the coast, but they're everywhere.

 

[Zimm]

I think I've bought 50 brand new cars in my life tome.

SheZimm has a friend that would discuss being a pilot at dinner functions all the time. I was drinking and irritable one night, and I asked her how many hours she had. All pilots know their hours. That ended that bullshit… for me too as I got nice lashing. No more calling out her friends.

Car guys don’t forget cars. Name all 50 cars.

 

[Mountain4x4]

As much as I loved the Defender 90 when they were imported to the US, they were too un-refined for me. No critical gear like lockers, not great reliability, terrible ergonomics and wayyyyyy over priced. I picked up a Gen 2 Montero with locker instead. It felt half baked.

 

[IslandFalconer]

The short of it, I think, is the Gren would have nailed its target market had it dropped the S in SUV and was completely utilitarian, like the G 461. Cubbies, mechanical hvac controls, slots for radios and unused dash switch locations for add on crap. The luxury version would have evolved organically, like the Gwagon, once volume sales were established and tooling paid down. Nantucket was the place 110nas’s went to die in the hands of housefrau’s and I wish Ineos would have approached the roll out with a plan to evolve up to that instead of trying to be all things, and falling short as nothing can be all things.

There still isn’t a new car on the market that comes close though, so, I guess I’ve committed to jamming this square peg into my round hole…. Hm. I could have phrased that better.

As for YOU and your issues, I just think you turned out to be softer than you thought you were, in your advancing age…

I agree they should have made it more simple and aimed it directly at those who want to use it. And than upmarket it. I think the vast majority here would have been very happy with mechanical HVAC, and blank switch holes. The overhead panel could have had a wire harness with 12 wires down to the under hood location where you could trigger relays and add a dozen diy switches. They aimed too close to the G63 instead of a base G Wagon.

 

[Jackattack13]

I agree they should have made it more simple and aimed it directly at those who want to use it. And than upmarket it. I think the vast majority here would have been very happy with mechanical HVAC, and blank switch holes. The overhead panel could have had a wire harness with 12 wires down to the under hood location where you could trigger relays and add a dozen diy switches. They aimed too close to the G63 instead of a base G Wagon.

When it was first announced, this is actually what I was hoping for. Manual HVAC sliders, hard switches, and a base level radio that I could upgrade if I wanted to down the line. They came REALLY close IMO. So close that my other half laughs that I would pay so much for a bare bones truck. I LOVE how close they got, but then they fumbled at the 5 yard line by integrating so many nanny features, alarms, beeps, bongs, and a piss poor designed head unit that seemingly controls way more than it should. A manual 5 or 6 speed would be icing on the cake along with a diesel variant that was originally promised in North America.
So. Damn. Close. LOL