No manual trans, on purpose?

[Catpaw4x4]

I’m one of that 6%. But right now I have all autos and I feel like my soul is slowly dying.

I purchased in 96 a 5 sp Manual Discovery - "purposefully"! I finally gave into an Automatic in 2013 when I joined Corporate. I still have my Discovery and love her for the exact reason that she is a Manual. I will never give her up. Clutch replaced at 125K and only because of some other engine work that made the clutch accessible but not due to excessive wear. She is now at 278K with that second clutch.

 

[Krabby]

… joined Corporate…

At JLR?

 

[255/85]

With the upgraded torque convertor Ineos is using the ZF should be fine. Probably a little disconcerting that Ram has never used a quality transmission, but even they are using a ZF as of 2019. ( my 2018 had a boat anchor)

Is there really anything special about the Ineos spec'd torque converter? I would've thought "yes" a couple of years ago but now? The Eco Diesel Wranglers are now running 8HP75s afaik.

 

[Kevin Mokracek]

I have many, many thousands of miles off road, and broken everything you can dream of at some point. A lot of what we do in the US is much harder then most over seas trails, and that may be part of the problem. When you are navigating furniture size boulders, a stick shift will make your life hell and the count down to major breakage is on. On easy, backcountry tracks, and lacking anything like major snow, a manual is fine. Try a manual on the Rubicon and you will be in the hurt house for example.

You are exactly right, I drove stick shift 4x4's for 30 years and loved it but that was mostly due to the fact that I had never had a automatic 4x4. The first time I got behind the wheel of a automatic 4x4 I never looked back. Hard trails are so much easier with an automatic. If I'm completely honest one of the main reasons I didn't get an automatic sooner had to do with my ego and looking down on those who drove automatics, what an idiot I was.

 

[255/85]

This is also contributes to why most manufacturers have dropped manuals - to difficult to implement AEB to get top safety ratings.

And cruise control will ramp up a manual to whatever speed it's set at regardless of the gear selected. Maybe they have lockouts that prevent that nowdays but I have to make certain I'm in high gear before I reengage it on one of my vehicles that has a manual transmission. I also hit "resume" on the steering wheel by accident once while in a lower gear. Startled the devil out of me for a few seconds before I figured out what occurred.

 

[Catpaw4x4]

At JLR?

Not quite - but the Disco came out of a corporate program out of Lanham MD . The corporate car was a Subaru Ouback!!!

 

[evomind]

If it’s just a preference than of course they aren’t wrong, if you argue manual performs better offroad, then in my opinion that’s not correct at least on an overall basis.

Im not arguing for nor against, I am pointing out that a lot of purists prefer it.

 

[OGrid]

I can’t see how IA could produce a vehicle with a manual transmission with the intrusion that currently exists in the front right footwell.

No way a clutch pedal could fit with that being there on RHD vehicles.

 

[Jeremy996]

My Grenadier is the first automatic I have owned; every other car I've had has been manual.

Speaking to the engineers at one of the demonstration days, the decision for auto only was taken very early on as the manual take up was expected to be much less than 10% and the compliance/emissions testing cost would have, more or less, doubled!

 

[Mountain4x4]

Keep in mind you would hardly ever notice most transmission upgrades. While a low stall torque convertor makes sense, most of the transmission disasters such as my 2018 and prior Ram, or Ford and Chevy 10speeds now, are simply cheap parts. Re-builders add a few hundred dollars in better fasteners, better torque convertors and such, and WHALA! You have an awesome transmission. Really sickening honestly.

 

[Tinerfeño]

I had a good opportunity to compare these last Sunday. I was with 3 friends on a hill just 2 kilometers from my Finnish home. 20-25 cm of snow, -15°C. I had my Disco -98 V8 auto, 265/75R16 Insa-Turbo Special Track tyres, automatic diff lock in the rear, Torsen in the fron. A friend had Disco -90 200Tdi manual, same tyres, no axle diff locks.

There was no traction whatsoever. The snow turned to powder as soon as it was broken.

However, my worst autobox experience was surpassed here: as soon as I lost traction, the wheels spun uncontrollably, even though I was using 1st gear locked. I tried to drive away from the above situation at least 20 times and then gave up and winched myself. The manual diesel also had problems, but because it didn't spun wheels so badly, it did make better progress despite having no axle diff locks.

The problem with autobox is that it is constant force device. When static friction changes to kinetic friction the friction coefficient gets smaller which causes increased wheel spin. Additional problem was the aggressive throttle response of the V8.

The manual transmission is a constant speed device. Loosing traction does not cause tremendous spin and relatively mild throttle response helps controlling that. The costant speed is also very important when driving over obstacles. Especially to older dieseld, 200Tdi and 300Tdi just go over these without need to react on throttle.

 

[Disco Dave]

In my 4WD group, drivers of auto’s get penalised at the end of the day. Why? They out perform the manuals to such an extent, they deserve to be penalised!

 

[bimmerteck]

Can you push start an auto, I think not. Manuals for the win!

On older ones, sure, though it’s not for the faint of heart. Just yank them backwards and shift from neutral into reverse. Had to do that more often than I care to admit on my ‘74 bronco.

 

[DakotaKLR600]

Here are a few issues;
1. Low take rate, so another design for a handful of typically not the target audience buyers.
2. An Automatic is FAR easier to use off-road then a stick
3. A stick shift transmission is far less reliable due to burned out clutches and the like. Also easier to check fluids, cool, ect on an Auto.
4. A stick shift transmission reduces reliability of the vehicle as a whole, and dramatically increases breakage as its a much more violent engagement.

How to say I cannot drive manual and have no interest in automobiles without saying it directly... all of these statements are backwards. I mean how long does a clutch typically last? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MILES. Seems like a real reliability issue... A manual offers greater control and the ability to freewheel, engine breaking anticipate upcoming obstacles. For the price point I really feel that the buyer deserves the right to choose thier own transmisson. For 75k+ for an suv that has a limited market anyway the option should be offered.

 

[Jiman01]

I wonder if anyone will try to convert theirs to manual? I’m not sure what needs to be done to add the Supra manual bits to a Grenadier, but it’s seems logical that it can be done.

In over 50yrs of driving a stick, I’ve never had one burn out. My last Wrangler’s clutch was still going strong with 110k on the clock. IMHO most modern clutches will last longer than the amount of time a typical owner would keep their vehicle (5-10yrs).

I’d agree that an automatic probably is objectively better but, I just enjoy driving a manual more without exception.

 

[Tinerfeño]

Just yank them backwards and shift from neutral into reverse.

Why backwards? The torque converter will in any case work backwards.

 

[Jeremy996]

How to say I cannot drive manual and have no interest in automobiles without saying it directly... all of these statements are backwards. I mean how long does a clutch typically last? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MILES. Seems like a real reliability issue... A manual offers greater control and the ability to freewheel, engine breaking anticipate upcoming obstacles. For the price point I really feel that the buyer deserves the right to choose thier own transmisson. For 75k+ for an suv that has a limited market anyway the option should be offered.

The option of manual will never be offered as the cost of compliance will double as all of the emissions testing will have to be duplicated. As the take-up will be minimal, you cannot spread the costs across enough vehicles. Good old fashioned capitalism has ruled time on manual transmissions. Time to join the 21st century, where manual transmissions will be a curio confined to historic vehicles, (like the relics in my garage).

Back when I was a car mechanic, I have seen clutches destroyed in under 20k miles. It is harder to thrash an automatic, as it will always try to find the right gear and not let the engine spin itself to death or grind itself to a standstill.

As for control, engine braking and similar; that is a matter of driver training. The manual mode on the Grenadier is very useful and that is a feature common to many automatic 4WDs. Read the vehicle manual carefully and get some appropriate training.

Retrofitting a Supra gearbox in a Grenadier is going to require a complete new engine management system and massive changes to the vehicle body logic, a hell of a project! It is so much easier to put a Discovery 2 auto drivetrain in an old Defender, as most of the compatibility issues have been ironed out by JLR.

 

[Jiman01]

What does, “vehicle body logic” mean?

 

[DaveB]

100%, wouldn’t fit given the current parameters.

Hard enough to squeeze two feet in work boots in RHD Footwell.
Impossible to work a clutch as well.

 

[DaveB]

They did modify the gearbox to hold gears in manual mode though.
I have used manual mode in auto's before and they just decide to change up when they think the driver is wrong.
Going slowly down a loose dirt/rock slope to find you vehicle changing gears unexpectedly is a wake up call.
I did a steep first gear descent on my second test drive at the instructors request instead of using hill descent control.
Feet off the pedals and easy ride down.