New improved steering! - diffrent Box + less play Late 2023/2024 cars

[NQ94]

Using a custom made double ended bolt that is used very successfully doing a similar mod on Jeep JK/JL, I am looking at a Bilstein steering damper mounted above, deleting the welded mount below once testing for clearances are confirmed. Can advise late in January when the work is complete

Illustrated here without the bolt (there is a possible clearance issue to be checked through all suspension travel range)
View attachment 7836799

Is there good clearance when the suspension and stops are fully compressed? Like when hitting a wash out or dips too fast.

 

[Disco Dave]

Is there good clearance when the suspension and stops are fully compressed? Like when hitting a wash out or dips too fast.

Makes no difference, it is a solid axle.

 

[douggie]

Is there good clearance when the suspension and stops are fully compressed? Like when hitting a wash out or dips too fast.

It’s whether the adapted doubled ended bolt to hold the damper to the chassis has clearance. And the forklift to help cross up the car to full travel in every direction will show whether it works or not. As well as test drive across rough farmland to see if there is any contact under driving conditions

 

[NQ94]

Makes no difference, it is a solid axle.

Hit a wash out or dip too fast in a rigid axle car both front springs compress and possibly the bump stops compress. The issue is the track rod with the damper and the drag link move with the axle and can cause clearance issues under the engine and radiator if modified. Unlike ifs when both springs are compressed equally the center of the car can hit the ground.

 

[Clark Kent]

Robert Pepper looks at ground clearance in Part 4 of his Offroad tourers test.
He commented on the clearance of the RHD steering dampener.

Video here (Youtube)
Dampener comments start here

 

[MrMike]

Robert Pepper looks at ground clearance in Part 4 of his Offroad tourers test.
He commented on the clearance of the RHD steering dampener.

View attachment 7837074

Video here (Youtube)
Dampener comments start here

While it's at the front and exposed, it's slightly higher than the bottom of the front diff, the lowest part seems to be the fuel tank bash plate.

 

[jannie0127]

Using a custom made double ended bolt that is used very successfully doing a similar mod on Jeep JK/JL, I am looking at a Bilstein steering damper mounted above, deleting the welded mount below once testing for clearances are confirmed. Can advise late in January when the work is complete

Illustrated here without the bolt (there is a possible clearance issue to be checked through all suspension travel range)
View attachment 7836799

Hi douggie.

Any feedback on your steering mod? How was the clearances?

 

[douggie]

Hi douggie.

Any feedback on your steering mod? How was the clearances?

The guy doing work has been too busy to fit this in… it’s a side project and investment for him so I’m just waiting till he’s over his work peak. Will update when it’s done.

Regds Doug

 

[grenadierboy]

The guy doing work has been too busy to fit this in… it’s a side project and investment for him so I’m just waiting till he’s over his work peak. Will update when it’s done.

Regds Doug

Thanks - I rekon there are quite a few Grenistas who are very keen to find out!

 

[Ras Thurlo]

They will not ever change to a rack & pinion steering so there are only minor changes to be had.

why not? Apart from the obvious comment of not wanting to be seen to have made bad choice in the first place

We are all really happy with the "traditional" approach of the Grenadier (solid axels, coil springs etc etc) and are on this forum because of it

But I would bet that if a rack&pinion steering was an option, most of us would go for it. Once you spend this amount of money on a car you need it to be a 360 proposition - otherwise one would buy a 1990s 4x4 and save yourself 90% of the cost

 

[MrMike]

why not? Apart from the obvious comment of not wanting to be seen to have made bad choice in the first place

We are all really happy with the "traditional" approach of the Grenadier (solid axels, coil springs etc etc) and are on this forum because of it

But I would bet that if a rack&pinion steering was an option, most of us would go for it. Once you spend this amount of money on a car you need it to be a 360 proposition - otherwise one would buy a 1990s 4x4 and save yourself 90% of the cost

I think you'll find very few R & P steering set ups on sold axle vehicles. The forces applied would destroy most off the shelf systems.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

I think you'll find very few R & P steering set ups on sold axle vehicles. The forces applied would destroy most off the shelf systems.

You don't want the back feed forces into the steering wheel.
Imagine a bicycle.
Big gear in front, little sprocket in back. It turns the wheel very fast.
That's what a solid connection does when a rack (big gear) and pinion system (little gear) hits a big rock with the wheel turned. It will break your thumbs.
Alternatively, something else gets broken.

*You will see Rally drivers completely let go of the wheel when a hard shunt is expected.

 

[anand]

That's what a solid connection does when a rack (big gear) and pinion system (little gear) hits a big rock with the wheel turned. It will break your thumbs.

Exactly the reason why we teach students in our fundamentals classes to drive with their thumbs on the wheel not within the wheel

 

[ECrider]

Exactly the reason why we teach students in our fundamentals classes to drive with their thumbs on the wheel not within the wheel

damn right, you won't see Walter Rohl drive with thumbs around the wheel. Me neither for that reason. Similar when dad shows son how to make a fist!

 

[LC0013]

why not? Apart from the obvious comment of not wanting to be seen to have made bad choice in the first place

We are all really happy with the "traditional" approach of the Grenadier (solid axels, coil springs etc etc) and are on this forum because of it

But I would bet that if a rack&pinion steering was an option, most of us would go for it. Once you spend this amount of money on a car you need it to be a 360 proposition - otherwise one would buy a 1990s 4x4 and save yourself 90% of the cost

Bad choice? There is nothing wrong with the steering and why people complain about it perplexes me. I currently own both a 100 and 200 series Land Cruiser and I prefer the steering of the Ineos to them. Sometime I believe some people, not yourself, just like to complain about something.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

I'd be curious to know rate of deflection for the various wheel/tire combo's.
Air pressure, sidewall stiffness, play a big roll in that squirmy feeling. Everything has to load up before you change direction.
For pavement pounders, they may feel more secure going up in wheel size, and down in profile. Saving the more aggressive tires for dirt days.
Just a thought.

 

[[ Adam ]]

I'm not

Bad choice? There is nothing wrong with the steering and why people complain about it perplexes me. I currently own both a 100 and 200 series Land Cruiser and I prefer the steering of the Ineos to them. Sometime I believe some people, not yourself, just like to complain about something.

I'm not an expert, but...

I think people are having a hard time because the grenadier is fundamentally different from anything else that's available on the market.

This is not a front ball joint axle, this is not a front swivel ball axle - it's a kingpin. And the reality is there have not been many production vehicles with front kingpin solid axles in the last 30 years. The last mass produced front kingpin axle I can find seems to be a 91 Ford F350.

So it's different. And it may be that manufacturers have gone away from front kingpins because of the benefits that front ball joints brought.

Kingpins on the other hand are thought to be more robust and longer lasting than a ball joint front end. Compromises were made, resilience was picked over comfort, turning radius and perhaps even the feel of the steering.

I'm not aware of any kingpin front axle that has used a steering rack. I believe that solid axles, high clearance off-road vehicles generally use steering boxes as opposed to a rack and pinion because it is once again more robust and more of the steering mechanism is kept up and away from the axle & potential collisions.

Rack and pinion steering components tend to be much less beefy than steering boxes and their associated linkages.

 

[LC0013]

I'm not

I'm not an expert, but...

I think people are having a hard time because the grenadier is fundamentally different from anything else that's available on the market.

This is not a front ball joint axle, this is not a front swivel ball axle - it's a kingpin. And the reality is there have not been many production vehicles with front kingpin solid axles in the last 30 years. The last mass produced front kingpin axle I can find seems to be a 91 Ford F350.

So it's different. And it may be that manufacturers have gone away from front kingpins because of the benefits that front ball joints brought.

Kingpins on the other hand are thought to be more robust and longer lasting than a ball joint front end. Compromises were made, resilience was picked over comfort, turning radius and perhaps even the feel of the steering.

I'm not aware of any kingpin front axle that has used a steering rack. I believe that solid axles, high clearance off-road vehicles generally use steering boxes as opposed to a rack and pinion because it is once again more robust and more of the steering mechanism is kept up and away from the axle & potential collisions.

Rack and pinion steering components tend to be much less beefy than steering boxes and their associated linkages.

You are correct, it is different but not difficult.

 

[DaveB]

why not? Apart from the obvious comment of not wanting to be seen to have made bad choice in the first place

We are all really happy with the "traditional" approach of the Grenadier (solid axels, coil springs etc etc) and are on this forum because of it

But I would bet that if a rack&pinion steering was an option, most of us would go for it. Once you spend this amount of money on a car you need it to be a 360 proposition - otherwise one would buy a 1990s 4x4 and save yourself 90% of the cost

You can't use rack & pinion on a solid front axle unless you restrict it's articulation and movement.
So it wouldn't be available as an option.

 

[MarkgreSC]

So having a conversation today, I have heard there is a new version of the steering, I guess its a new box, possibly with variable ratios in the box. I believe its already in production, so late 2023/2024 cars will have it. I really want to test it side by side but the person I was speaking to, has driven both. I have not seen this on the forum before. I was told there is no plan to upgrade existing cars though. I don't believe the steering lock is any different.


UPDATE:-

I have driven it see Post 83

I have a loaner (for 20+ days now as mine is in shop) that is a 2023 and has a noticeable better turning radius than the 2024 I unfortunately purchased. I live on a mountain road with steep technical driveway and drastic difference between units. If I get my vehicle out of the shop in next couple months, I will post radius comparison as I have done a parking lot test for # of spaces, etc on loaner to compare on mine when back. Between the speed alert and worse radius steering box, newer may not be better.