Long road trip report

[ZemTyrion]

I just drove from Denver, Colorado to Richmond, Virginia. Then a week later, I turned around. For those who don't know, that's about 1600 miles each way. I thought some of this information might be helpful for someone.

Relevant Modifications
Fox non-adjustable steering stabilizer
Eibach 2.5in leveling springs
Falken Wildpeak A/T4W LT285/75R17/10
Leitner Designs 3/4 roof rack (just Maxtrax and a hi-lift jack up there)
Wolfbox G900 rear view camera
Suma Performance side mirrors

Seating Position
One concern I have had about this car is the only place to set an arm is in the window sill. It's great around town, but it doesn't allow for much control, and it's not good for your arm/shoulder for a long drive. We found that we could shove pillows on either side of the driver's seat, and it made all the difference in the world. It was comfortable, and I had much better control on the highway. My biggest takeaway from this drive is that these seats need armrests. Honestly, my back/neck was my biggest worry before setting out on this trip, and the pillows as armrests made it delightful.

Steering/Handling
If not for the steering damper, I'd have gotten rid of this car a long time ago. The damper did a great job. However, it doesn't do much for the play in the wheel, and any emergency handling is going to be a very bad day. I am considering King shocks to see if that might help it feel more stable at speed. I am also considering the King or adjustable Fox steering dampers. The steering play is just insane. But I'm also considering a Land Cruiser, so it could go either way.

Mirrors
These work brilliantly together. I felt a lot more confident with these than the "why would you need to see anything behind you?" design philosophy of the stock mirrors. It took just a couple hours to adjust to the Wolf camera.

Fuel Economy
This is really the reason I am posting this. I didn't trust the car to do the math. I kept track of miles and gallons. In Colorado and Kansas I got 91 octane, and east of there I got 93.

There are several factors related to fuel economy. Obviously the cross sectional area of the vehicle makes a big difference, and the lift and roof rack contribute to that. Then there is whether it has to rev higher than it would prefer because of running out of gears. Rolling resistance matters, and certainly there are other tires that would do better. I had mine to about 38/39psi. In Colorado and Kansas the altitude will help because of less air density. Given the mods I have, I did not expect much, but I was hoping for better. I typically drove 10mph over the speed limit. I am not interested in comments about that unless you have driven across Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, or the like yourself (honestly, I'm not interested either way). That makes it 85mph for most of eastern Colorado, Kansas, and western Missouri. Other states had speed limits of 65-70mph. Note that I also checked my speed with GPS, and I needed to add about 1.5% (so car reports 83, I'm going 85). The pressure drag is proportional to the square of the speed, so going fast can quickly get out of hand, but even in West Virginia where the roads are narrow, windy, and under construction (i.e. slow), I didn't see any good results (it is also a lot of up and down, though).

I started by comparing reported miles to mile markers over 50 miles. I determined I needed to add 6.2% to the car's miles for accuracy. So with all of that corrected...

• Total average: 11.96 mpg
• Worst tank: 9.32 mpg
• Best tank: 14.37 mpg

Of course the worst and best tanks can be affected by a gas tank that clicked off at a different level, but the overall average is pretty solid. It looks like mostly 11-12 in the west and 13-14 in the east.

Before you jump in with "The Grenadier wasn't built for this! What did you expect?" or something of the sort, I am aware. I am reporting the information in case it matters to someone. It's a new car, and data is important. I'm not all that keen on global warming either.

Unfortunately, I can't give exact numbers here, but every time I checked the vehicle's calculation of the mpg, it was significantly higher. I might make it a point to compare the real with the car calculation more precisely later on.

That's all I have. Thanks for you time. Feel free to move this to a different forum if it should be somewhere else.

 

[Dokatd]

Admittedly I didn’t read your whole post…it was long.

But I have put maybe 4-5k miles on my truck in basically the configuration as yours. It’s miserable to drive cross country. And as you mentioned, emergency braking or maneuvering is extremely dangerous. This is due to a couple things, but the easiest of them all to fix is the shocks. Go for the Kings or the new Konis. This will largely fix your concerns without serious modification. The stock shocks are very lightly valved. My truck is a relative joy to drive now with Kings. Honestly it feels about like any other modern SUV now for the most part.

One difficult to solve issue is the short rear axle links. Due to their length and the lift you end up with a decent amount of rear steer because the shocks are so lightly valved. So either you lengthen the link arms a lot or use shock valving to control the axle a bit more. Shocks are cheap in comparison to hacking things up to install longer links.

 

[ZemTyrion]

That's great to hear, thanks.

Oh, and cliff notes:
Seats need arm rests.
Fuel economy is way worse than we thought.

 

[angstorms]

Did you get alignment on the truck, also check the front end for play when it up on rack. I find I do not have the kind of play in the steering wheel I see in video, it relatively tight in my truck. Drove to Moab from Durango, and Colorado Spring to Durango when I bought the truck for longer runs. Mostly run up 550 to the mountains and runs the local trails in San Juans.

 

[Nevada Grenadier]

Going from 9.32mpg to 14.37mpg is actually a very large increase 54.2% to be precise. I recently did a thousand mile road trip and got just under 15MPG for the whole trip but was mostly driving 65-75MPH so I find the 15 MPG rating from INEOS to be pretty accurate. I calculate my milage every time I get gas. I find the computer generated MPG overestimates the milage about 2mpg. I also want to point out that changing tire sizes does effect the accuracy of speedometer reading or at least it has on the many trucks I have owned over the years.

 

[hoohoohama]

I have also done a trip recently (~900 miles), was trying to use the trip computer to record the distance driven and compute the mpg when I refill at the gas station. I was able to do the reset distance driven successfully for the first two refills, but failed for the rest of the trips. The annoying service reminder kept popping up interrupting the reset

 

[ZemTyrion]

I had the alignment checked at the dealership just days before starting out. It's all good there. The steering is just crap. I don't think the wheel points straight but it's hard to tell.


I ordered some King struts. We'll see if that improves the odds of surviving a hasty turn.

 

[anand]

Interesting that you feel the steering is so bad... Mine is like @angstorms vehicle; definitely has play in the steering, but quite direct at the same time (on skinny 33s, stock suspension, and probably 600+lbs added)... Quick lane changes at 80+MPH definitely aren't worrisome and tight or sweeping turns on curvy mountain roads at, uhhh, "Mexico" speeds also are perfectly fine (for a 6,000lb SUV). I could go for slightly stiffer springs in general, since I've added so much weight, but that should be addressed soon hopefully

 

[angstorms]

I had the alignment checked at the dealership just days before starting out. It's all good there. The steering is just crap. I don't think the wheel points straight but it's hard to tell.


I ordered some King struts. We'll see if that improves the odds of surviving a hasty turn.

One thing if the Steering wheel is not centered have Red Noland center the wheel. they need to do some adjustment to linkage.

So is issue more about Body role, since shock are not going to fix steering linkage issue you may be having, but they willl address body role aka pitch, yaw and role . Since this normally what issue is in emergency in Fast Lange changes is body role.

I drive 2020 BMW x5 ( Austin SUV) and Grenadier ( Durango truck) do once and while drive them back to back at times, normal if I drive up X5 from Austin, I park and use the Grenadier and let my wife have the x5 for running around town. The biggest issue after period of not driving Grenadier is slow speed turning and the return to center you have to remember give a little to bring it back to center.

I have been thinking about some King Shock but more for off road performance, love to hear how people find them off road.

 

[AngusMacG]

Nice review.

I’m over 30k miles with trips from Central MA up to Quebec City (~800 miles round trip) several trips to NJ and one to Myrtle Beach and back (~1600 miles round trip). I have zero issues with the stock steering and have found that it has gotten better with more miles. My mileage has been running around 14 mpg on highway going about 75-80.

I have no issues with the seating or arm position. I’m about 5’6” and sit a bit close and upright so maybe you are taller with a different seating position.

I do agree about the vehicles software for mileage etc. I only trust the trip meter and how many miles I’ve driven on a tank.

 

[Michael_in_Baja]

I just drove from Denver, Colorado to Richmond, Virginia. Then a week later, I turned around. For those who don't know, that's about 1600 miles each way. I thought some of this information might be helpful for someone.

Relevant Modifications
Fox non-adjustable steering stabilizer
Eibach 2.5in leveling springs
Falken Wildpeak A/T4W LT285/75R17/10
Leitner Designs 3/4 roof rack (just Maxtrax and a hi-lift jack up there)
Wolfbox G900 rear view camera
Suma Performance side mirrors

Seating Position
One concern I have had about this car is the only place to set an arm is in the window sill. It's great around town, but it doesn't allow for much control, and it's not good for your arm/shoulder for a long drive. We found that we could shove pillows on either side of the driver's seat, and it made all the difference in the world. It was comfortable, and I had much better control on the highway. My biggest takeaway from this drive is that these seats need armrests. Honestly, my back/neck was my biggest worry before setting out on this trip, and the pillows as armrests made it delightful.

Steering/Handling
If not for the steering damper, I'd have gotten rid of this car a long time ago. The damper did a great job. However, it doesn't do much for the play in the wheel, and any emergency handling is going to be a very bad day. I am considering King shocks to see if that might help it feel more stable at speed. I am also considering the King or adjustable Fox steering dampers. The steering play is just insane. But I'm also considering a Land Cruiser, so it could go either way.

Mirrors
These work brilliantly together. I felt a lot more confident with these than the "why would you need to see anything behind you?" design philosophy of the stock mirrors. It took just a couple hours to adjust to the Wolf camera.

Fuel Economy
This is really the reason I am posting this. I didn't trust the car to do the math. I kept track of miles and gallons. In Colorado and Kansas I got 91 octane, and east of there I got 93.

There are several factors related to fuel economy. Obviously the cross sectional area of the vehicle makes a big difference, and the lift and roof rack contribute to that. Then there is whether it has to rev higher than it would prefer because of running out of gears. Rolling resistance matters, and certainly there are other tires that would do better. I had mine to about 38/39psi. In Colorado and Kansas the altitude will help because of less air density. Given the mods I have, I did not expect much, but I was hoping for better. I typically drove 10mph over the speed limit. I am not interested in comments about that unless you have driven across Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, or the like yourself (honestly, I'm not interested either way). That makes it 85mph for most of eastern Colorado, Kansas, and western Missouri. Other states had speed limits of 65-70mph. Note that I also checked my speed with GPS, and I needed to add about 1.5% (so car reports 83, I'm going 85). The pressure drag is proportional to the square of the speed, so going fast can quickly get out of hand, but even in West Virginia where the roads are narrow, windy, and under construction (i.e. slow), I didn't see any good results (it is also a lot of up and down, though).

I started by comparing reported miles to mile markers over 50 miles. I determined I needed to add 6.2% to the car's miles for accuracy. So with all of that corrected...

• Total average: 11.96 mpg
• Worst tank: 9.32 mpg
• Best tank: 14.37 mpg

Of course the worst and best tanks can be affected by a gas tank that clicked off at a different level, but the overall average is pretty solid. It looks like mostly 11-12 in the west and 13-14 in the east.

Before you jump in with "The Grenadier wasn't built for this! What did you expect?" or something of the sort, I am aware. I am reporting the information in case it matters to someone. It's a new car, and data is important. I'm not all that keen on global warming either.

Unfortunately, I can't give exact numbers here, but every time I checked the vehicle's calculation of the mpg, it was significantly higher. I might make it a point to compare the real with the car calculation more precisely later on.

That's all I have. Thanks for you time. Feel free to move this to a different forum if it should be somewhere else.

This vehicle is extremely susceptible to speed and particularly over speed. I had an experience a couple years ago driving across Texas that was mind numbing in an F250 4x4 that caused my mpg to drop 30%.

My Trialmaster is like that. At 56 mph I get 17 plus. At 66 mph I get 15. At 76+ all bets are off. I will be testing the TDI tunerfor the B58 in an upcoming episode of my podcast. I think I will see a 15 to 20% increase in fuel economy at 60ish mph.

 

[[ Adam ]]

Just turned 17k miles, been across the country, up to Montreal from DC, VT, CT, multiple trips to West Point, etc.

Concur that fuel economy is abysmal - I established that pretty early on driving from Seattle, Moab , Denver to DC last December. My fuel economy is somewhere in Here.

I agree with Anand, and really don't see the driveability issues - a significant % of my driving has been interstate or DC metro area traffic. Cross winds in KS were a bigger concern to me than anything else. At some point folks are just going to have to accept that kingpins drive differently than what they are used to. It doesn't make them right or wrong, just mechanically different.

RE: Arm rest - agreed. I gave myself some sort of carpal tunnel driving home from Seattle and had to adjust my grip on the steering wheel. The seat can be difficult to position correctly, but I finally settled on a lower position than I had initially used and now have it at a position that driving 8+ hours has not been a problem.

 

[Nevada Grenadier]

Just turned 17k miles, been across the country, up to Montreal from DC, VT, CT, multiple trips to West Point, etc.

Concur that fuel economy is abysmal - I established that pretty early on driving from Seattle, Moab , Denver to DC last December. My fuel economy is somewhere in Here.

I agree with Anand, and really don't see the driveability issues - a significant % of my driving has been interstate or DC metro area traffic. Cross winds in KS were a bigger concern to me than anything else. At some point folks are just going to have to accept that kingpins drive differently than what they are used to. It doesn't make them right or wrong, just mechanically different.

RE: Arm rest - agreed. I gave myself some sort of carpal tunnel driving home from Seattle and had to adjust my grip on the steering wheel. The seat can be difficult to position correctly, but I finally settled on a lower position than I had initially used and now have it at a position that driving 8+ hours has not been a problem.

I had a CLD for 10 years, My father was a Highway patrolman for 34 years and about half the police in Nevada went through his driving course. I am one of the few he rides in a car as a passenger with. I have driven tractors and rock trucks and any number of 4x4's over the years. Anyone who claims this car is unsafe I just have to question their driving ability or they do not have reasonable expectation. Jeeps had/have a reputation for rolling over. In reality jeeps do not cause rollovers bad drivers do....

 

[Bruce B]

As I read the original post, the first thing I note is that the vehicle is set up with different springs and tires. I understand that many people will modify their vehicles and I have no problem with that but comparing even a slightly modified vehicle to one that is as designed and tested by the factory is a mistake. No one has more knowledge about the driving dynamics of this design than Ineos. I came from the automotive service industry and even just switching to different brand tires of the same size can have a lot of impact on how a vehicle drives. Add different springs, a steering damper and tires and of course it will feel different! This post would be better titled “Long road trip report of modified Grenadier”. I am not trying to attack the message, I simply think it best to keep an open mind about modifications and the impact they have on driving dynamics.

 

[[ Adam ]]

As I read the original post, the first thing I note is that the vehicle is set up with different springs and tires. I understand that many people will modify their vehicles and I have no problem with that but comparing even a slightly modified vehicle to one that is as designed and tested by the factory is a mistake. No one has more knowledge about the driving dynamics of this design than Ineos. I came from the automotive service industry and even just switching to different brand tires of the same size can have a lot of impact on how a vehicle drives. Add different springs, a steering damper and tires and of course it will feel different! This post would be better titled “Long road trip report of modified Grenadier”. I am not trying to attack the message, I simply think it best to keep an open mind about modifications and the impact they have on driving dynamics.

Vehicle engineering is fundamentally an exercise of compromises. Once you start modifying the vehicle, you start learning why certain compromises were made. You get a taller vehicle suspension, but you also get X. You get a softer steering damper, and you get Y. You get bigger tires, and fuel economy goes to Z.

The truth is, Ineos spent a lot of time and brainpower sussing out those variables. They also spent a heck of a lot more money testing them than your aftermarket supplier, who's often just trying to make a quick buck using something off the shelf and has no more engineering experience than I do.

I've only spent 30 years modifying vehicles trying to make one vehicle perform like another, have no formal training (in much of anything) but I did finally come to the conclusion that OEM automotive engineers are probably smarter than me and the collective knowledge of an internet forum and most aftermarket vendors.

 

[C-Mack]

Vehicle engineering is fundamentally an exercise of compromises. Once you start modifying the vehicle, you start learning why certain compromises were made. You get a taller vehicle suspension, but you also get X. You get a softer steering damper, and you get Y. You get bigger tires, and fuel economy goes to Z.

The truth is, Ineos spent a lot of time and brainpower sussing out those variables. They also spent a heck of a lot more money testing them than your aftermarket supplier, who's often just trying to make a quick buck using something off the shelf and has no more engineering experience than I do.

I've only spent 30 years modifying vehicles trying to make one vehicle perform like another, have no formal training (in much of anything) but I did finally come to the conclusion that OEM automotive engineers are probably smarter than me and the collective knowledge of an internet forum and most aftermarket vendors.

Agreed, just wish more folks had this initial approach to their vehicles as it would save them time and money as they slowly discover over time the closer to stock a given vehicle remains the better it performs for most of their driving. Not saying smart modifications designed for very specific off-road needs or 9/10ths driving environments can’t be good but the key word is changes will always come with “compromises”. Watching guys struggling on the street or parking (whatever hot 4x4 of the moment) lifted on 37+” tires always brings me a bit of a smile.

 

[bikesandguitars]

I guess I got lucky with my Grenadier. I live in Colorado. Just got back from my fourth 1,100 mile round-trip to the Colorado Plateau desert / Moab and Bears Ears. My steering is fine. The vehicle doesn’t wander. The seats are comfy. I’ve never felt the need to address the steering. When jostling about off road, armrests would probably be in the way. (But I seem to remember that I did enjoy the armrests in my 100 series LX470 - but the LX was much more of a highway oriented vehicle. )

After consulting with John, the service advisor at Red Noland, I removed my 2.5” lift just before this trip out of extreme caution for the driveshaft angle under full articulation. I like my transfer case the way it is! I have to say, I enjoy the handling better with the vehicle lifted and leveled. I will definitely put the lift back on - hopefully soon. Just waiting for more aftermarket parts to come available.

Side note - for those not aware; the octane difference of 91/93 for premium and 87/89 for regular are negligible due to altitude and the fuel / oxygen mix at 4,000+ feet elevation vs closer to sea level.

(* This does not apply to the 85 octane fuel that is also available at elevation. 85 octane is sold at altitude as a substitute for 87 octane. It is suitable for older, carbureted engines. There is also an E85 that is marketed for newer Flexfuel applications. I tried it one time in my 2016 Flex-fuel Tundra. Never again. )

Moral of the story - the Grenadier will reveal the majority of its compromises when driven long distances on the interstate.

Honestly, if I were driving 3,200 miles to go off-roading, I would choose a more highway oriented vehicle for the journey and rent a Jeep when I got to my destination. Every trail town has a fleet Rubicon’s waiting to go.

 

[ZemTyrion]

Let's not pretend these cars are built to some perfection of performance. They were made, like all things, to a budget and with many compromises. That's why all the colors are inoffensive and boring, for example. Yes, modifications can reduce the life of some components. That's life - you have to pay to play. There are some people who are very worried about their warranties and can't imagine doing anything to risk them. Great, then this isn't for you. In my opinion, without a lift it might as well be a Highlander. I would like another 2-3 inches, but I'll manage as it is. The rocks in the western US aren't really that similar to offroading where they designed the Defender, you know? So I can start with a solid platform and modify to suit my needs. Shockingly, I also ask for no onions despite the fact that the Burger King spent a long time testing the Whopper.

In terms of reliability, if that were my chief concern, I certainly wouldn't have bought a car based on a Land Rover from a new car company.

Now, all of that said... these modifications are very mild. They will certainly hurt mileage, but that's really bad. There is a reason that vehicles aren't shaped like boxes anymore. It's a shape boxes aren't better. Most people think it's the front... it's not. It's the back. It's flow separation that makes pressure drag, particularly with the square of the velocity. It's why a little more speed really makes it so bad. Sadly, dimples won't help like a golf ball.


Thanks to the best driver in all of Nevada for letting us know all cars handle very well at all speeds and we are all terrible drivers. That's good to know.

 

[Bruce B]

Let's not pretend these cars are built to some perfection of performance. They were made, like all things, to a budget and with many compromises. That's why all the colors are inoffensive and boring, for example. Yes, modifications can reduce the life of some components. That's life - you have to pay to play. There are some people who are very worried about their warranties and can't imagine doing anything to risk them. Great, then this isn't for you. In my opinion, without a lift it might as well be a Highlander. I would like another 2-3 inches, but I'll manage as it is. The rocks in the western US aren't really that similar to offroading where they designed the Defender, you know? So I can start with a solid platform and modify to suit my needs. Shockingly, I also ask for no onions despite the fact that the Burger King spent a long time testing the Whopper.

In terms of reliability, if that were my chief concern, I certainly wouldn't have bought a car based on a Land Rover from a new car company.

Now, all of that said... these modifications are very mild. They will certainly hurt mileage, but that's really bad. There is a reason that vehicles aren't shaped like boxes anymore. It's a shape boxes aren't better. Most people think it's the front... it's not. It's the back. It's flow separation that makes pressure drag, particularly with the square of the velocity. It's why a little more speed really makes it so bad. Sadly, dimples won't help like a golf ball.


Thanks to the best driver in all of Nevada for letting us know all cars handle very well at all speeds and we are all terrible drivers. That's good to know.

I think you missed the point about modifications. Of course people are worried about warranty, they should be! The point made was that modifying a vehicle will always result in a trade off. Some people don’t care and that is fine. The original poster suggested that his Grenadier handled poorly enough to be dangerous in an emergency maneuver. I only suggested that perhaps the modifications he made exacerbates this. Actually, I am sure a lift does exactly that. Again, I have no problem with anyone modifying their vehicles, just be willing to accept the negatives along with the positives and not blame the design.