Honesty from Ineos Automotive please….

[grenadierboy]

Spreading the love is the only way businesses become good, good also does not mean making ONLY money. A business where you employees respect your own drive, ability and target hitting is a good one to work for. Couple that with honestly and integrity - great work space.

I am a believer that you put your hand up and admit it when you make a mistake. I made a few for the businesses that I worked for over the years (all salvageable of course!), but I could have just hidden them in the myriad of finances, and none be the wiser. Instead, I took the hard way home! Falling on your sword sometimes shows the people around you just how much integrity you have. It is how you respond, action a new plan and take responsibility for the outcomes. Since COVID though I find most persons around me in the 'workspace' just don't give a flying - hence why I now work for myself which allows me to still demand common ground, quality work outcomes and to ultimately hold people responsible for their efforts (good and bad!). For that, you weed out the people that do not care and instead gain people who are happy to work for you any day of the week.

I worked for a global consulting firm. My clients were almost all international financial services groups that were generally unforgiving and incredibly demanding of a service providers.

I agree with what you say trobex in principle but clearly some "mistakes" you should never tell your customers of otherwise you end up looking like a clown shop. However, critical errors that tend to lead to over promising & under delivering need to be owned.

I found that when critical mistakes did occur, quickly getting on the front foot by being transparent with customers, owning the mistake(s) made and then getting their buy-in going forward was really the best long term strategy.

I never once had a client cut me adrift where I had quickly admitted the mistake impacting deliverables but provided a viable solution.

I think one of the issues INEOS has had over the past 8 months with it's customers is sort only going half way with this approach and this has led to a spiral of over promising/under delivering. This has been a tremendous learning curve for IA and I bet the next IA model delivery will be much smoother

 

[DaveB]

I worked for a global consulting firm. My clients were almost all international financial services groups that were generally unforgiving and incredibly demanding of a service providers.

I agree with what you say trobex in principle but clearly some "mistakes" you should never tell your customers of otherwise you end up looking like a clown shop. However, critical errors that tend to lead to over promising & under delivering need to be owned.

I found that when critical mistakes did occur, quickly getting on the front foot by being transparent with customers, owning the mistake(s) made and then getting their buy-in going forward was really the best long term strategy.

I never once had a client cut me adrift where I had quickly admitted the mistake impacting deliverables but provided a viable solution.

I think one of the issues INEOS has had over the past 8 months with it's customers is sort only going half way with this approach and this has led to a spiral of over promising/under delivering. This has been a tremendous learning curve for IA and I bet the next IA model delivery will be much smoother

I agree
I have always had the policy "make sure the client finds out from us/me" if any issues come up.
Don't ever wait for them to ring or for a deadline to pass with inaction.

 

[trobex]

I agree
I have always had the policy "make sure the client finds out from us/me" if any issues come up.
Don't ever wait for them to ring or for a deadline to pass with inaction.

Spot on Dave
Minor things that can be fixed in the relative course of the project/delivery of the product is just part of life - certainly wouldn't tell a client I ordered the wrong toothbrush (just order the right one and get on with it!).
Making errors that do cost money, or hamper quality, or safety or reneging on promises to clients are things that must be relayed immediately as it is a direct reflecting of yourself: - this is what I learnt as a kid and held on to as a career man. It makes for some damn hard conversations though... all of which helps us grow!

 

[DCPU]

You can bet the farm that he knows everything that's going on and that it's at his direction.

I doubt it.

It took him long enough to realise what he was being told by others didn't add up and make some changes at the top.

 

[DCPU]

Why she believes that keeping customers in the dark is good PR defies belief.

Because you don't pour petrol on a fire you want to go out.

By going into detail about the issues, she will create the story that mainstream media will pick up on. At the moment they are silent.

Imagine the headlines like:

"Ineos blames poor quality control for lengthy delays"
"Ineos to redesign 4x4 after journalists find it wanting"
"Ineos back to the drawing board after launch failure"
"Ineos unable to bring vehicle to market after numerous delays"

 

[DCPU]

This next week is a big one for IA. If we don’t see a huge wave of deliveries from the dealership ‘stock’ and a huge wave of contracts going out for the soon to be built vehicles then we know something is seriously wrong.

I thought we already knew something was seriously wrong ~ it's over 9 months since the Mark Tennant video saying customers would have car keys in hand by the end of that month.

I'm just waiting for mine to clear the last water jump and it'll be on the home straight.

Only this is the Grand National and there's a lap or more to do. Delivery is only really the start of the ownership experience.

 

[Tazzieman]

Only this is the Grand National and there's a lap or more to do. Delivery is only really the start of the ownership experience.

True. It's like a marriage, with far less risk and expense!
Yet many of us have bought into that contract

 

[trobex]

If you sit back, sip the cool aid - everything becomes clearer... it is what I have been doing since 8am this morning.

 

[Hannes01]

in business you sometimes have to admit mistakes and speak plainly.
as soon as someone says: folks, the cars are built and ready for delivery, but we found that part xxyy has an error that can lead to damage, so we have to rebuild and change it.
most would understand, especially since nobody wants to shut down with programmed trouble

 

[trobex]

If this was a passenger plane, all hell would break loose!

 

[Cjeffery]

It’s a joke really, but just not a very funny one. All of us who put our money where our mouths were (sept 2021) are being treated so badly…my grenadier arrived with the dealer on feb 2nd…I have seen it, sat in it and been bullshitted by IA ever since with reasons why I can’t have it…this after IA directed the dealer to ring me and tell me I was getting the first delivery in the UK. I won’t be now as IA have prioritised the delivery of a national newspaper editors order (I kid you not) whilst they (when they occasionally communicate) recycle the same lame excuses for the delays - I have lost my brand loyalty before I have taken delivery. Good luck everyone but think very carefully before confirming your orders and putting yourselves through all of this. I am pretty sure there is still something fundamentally wrong with the vehicle yet to be confirmed

So just to update…2 weeks ago a senior customer service advisor took hold of my case and was ‘certain’ I would take delivery within 2 weeks being yesterday. Yesterday he confirmed that IAare not able to give any further updates on timescales. The dealer believes they are very close…but then we all have been for 10 weeks. Oh and the head of sales UK says the 10 week further delay and multiple missed delivery dry deadlines warrants a massive discount of…0%…

 

[trobex]

So just to update…2 weeks ago a senior customer service advisor took hold of my case and was ‘certain’ I would take delivery within 2 weeks being yesterday. Yesterday he confirmed that IAare not able to give any further updates on timescales. The dealer believes they are very close…but then we all have been for 10 weeks. Oh and the head of sales UK says the 10 week further delay and multiple missed delivery dry deadlines warrants a massive discount of…0%…

Damn... spewin. The 'more delays' after the ones they already know of is what drives me mad.

 

[MileHigh]

It is pretty clear that they don’t know. It would seem that they don’t even know what the problem is- or worse, if they do, they don’t have a way to fix it.

I put a 40% chance that all the Grenediers produced so far will end up in car crushers. There is some unspeakable and unremittable problem that will keep them from being sold. That sounds legal or regulatory. Regulatory issues could easily see all the vehicles deemed unroad worthy. Legal- maybe the Land Rover Trademark issue or some liability coverage issue.

The fact that we are driving PTO2 and not production vehicles here in the US I think points to part of the problem.

Job ‘None’

 

[Tazzieman]

I put a 40% chance that all the Grenediers produced so far will end up in car crushers.

Make that 99% for modern land Rovers
Any more cheery thoughts you wish to share?

 

[AnD3rew]

It is pretty clear that they don’t know. It would seem that they don’t even know what the problem is- or worse, if they do, they don’t have a way to fix it.

I put a 40% chance that all the Grenediers produced so far will end up in car crushers. There is some unspeakable and unremittable problem that will keep them from being sold. That sounds legal or regulatory. Regulatory issues could easily see all the vehicles deemed unroad worthy. Legal- maybe the Land Rover Trademark issue or some liability coverage issue.

The fact that we are driving PTO2 and not production vehicles here in the US I think points to part of the problem.

Job ‘None’

I think this is highly unlikely. By all accounts cars continue to be produced and cars in production move through to completion. Cars are being transported to agents and apparently are on ships. This all comes at enormous cost to the company. If there was any real chance these cars would not ultimately be sold or delivered any sane business would shut it down at least until resolved one way or the other. Ratcliffe didn’t get where he is today by throwing money away.

 

[Shopkeep]

If this was a passenger plane, all hell would break loose!

The phrase "building the plane while flying it" comes to mind.

 

[Michael H.]

The phrase "building the plane while flying it" comes to mind.

View: https://youtu.be/L2zqTYgcpfg

 

[DCPU]

Regulatory issues could easily see all the vehicles deemed unroad worthy. Legal- maybe the Land Rover Trademark issue or some liability coverage issue.

Regulatory - we can see the type approvals have been issued, so what nail are you hanging your hat on?

Legal - US case appears still open but UK/most of Europe is settled.

 

[Steveo]

If IG found an issue with, say, a brake hose/pipe then imagine the effort required to rectify this.

Not only does the supplier have to meet the ongoing production demand but also make sufficient for those vehicles where rework is needed, presumably all vehicles built so far.
Then there's the verification that the fix actually works - the testing - before the supplier gears up.
Then there's the logistics of reworking cars in the compound and cars already shipped - to many destinations.

It is truly massive.

Then add the steering pipe.

It is no wonder to me that it is taking time, and so it should.

 

[ryket]

Many projects run over schedule and I guess the Grenadier is no exception. From a quality perspective I'm not concerned about the delays. Ultimately it doesn't really matter what's wrong with them: they're going to have to fix them and it will take as long as it takes unless they run out of money or simply can not find the resources to do so.

I suppose it's theoretically possible that the vehicles are 100% unfit for purpose and will go to a crusher. But this seems pretty unlikely to me. Shipping that many broken and unfixable cars would suggest a total failure of management, engineering and corporate culture at Ineos.

Of course, it's easy for me to be unconcerned as I haven't given Ineos any money except the reservation deposit. If I was further in the order process then I might have a different attitude.