Honesty from Ineos Automotive please….

[grenadierboy]

I have no doubt they have delivered 150 vehicles to the dealers, who have now delivered three of them to customers.
Promise met 100%
They didn't say the 150 vehicles would be delivered to customers.

I sort of agree DaveB but IA did say delivered to customers "immediately" - that means with no delay.

I am waiting without any stress and only a small amount of frustration but...my concerns are growing.

I mean - let's step back and get some perspective at what has happened since the fanfare of 16 October 2022.

Deep into 2023, 5 months since commencing series production, less than 3,000 cars have rolled off the line with just 3 delivered to customers.

I am beginning to think the problems IA have and are continuing to encounter are a lot more serious than we know about but I wish them well and I remain confident they will overcome.

 

[rovie]

I sort of agree DaveB but IA did say delivered to customers "immediately" - that means with no delay.

I am waiting without any stress and only a small amount of frustration but...my concerns are growing.

I mean - let's step back and get some perspective at what has happened since the fanfare of 16 October 2022.

Deep into 2023, 5 months since commencing series production, less than 3,000 cars have rolled off the line with just 3 delivered to customers.

I am beginning to think the problems IA have and are continuing to encounter are a lot more serious than we know about but I wish them well and I remain confident they will overcome.

Don't worry so much. There is always something unpredictable, especially with the launch of new products. You have to stay calm. Not only for us customers, but also for INEOS employees and managers. If I spoke as frantically and hastily as I sometimes do here on the forum (I don't mean you!), we would not manage to get a product from development to production.
My Grenadier would have been ready for collection from the dealer at the end of January, now it will be the end of April. I can only repeat myself. A company must be careful with the information it gives to the outside world. Only then can it successfully defend itself against critics (see emax thread). I know that it will continue. Hang in there!

 

[grenadierboy]

I am relaxed and waiting with a pocket full of cash for Sir Jim

 

[DCPU]

why do you want to buy a car from a manufacturer that lies?

Is there a car manufacturer that hasn't lied?

From Ford with their Pinto gas tanks, VW and others caught in dieselgate, Daimler, BMW, Audi and Porsche in the adblue cartel.

The whole industry gets huge fines on a regular basis:

Commission fines two European companies (SKF and Schaeffler) and four Japanese companies (JTEKT, NSK, NFC and NTN with its French subsidiary NTN-SNR), producers of car and truck bearings € 953 million in cartel settlement.

Commission has found that Bosch (Germany), Denso and NGK (both Japan) participated in a cartel concerning supplies of spark plugs to car manufacturers in the EEA and imposed a total fine of €76 million.

The European Commission has imposed fines of € 137 789 000 on Melco (Mitsubishi Electric) and Hitachi for participating in a cartel for alternators and starters with another firm, Denso.

The European Commission has imposed fines, totalling € 1 354 896 000 on Asahi, Pilkington, Saint-Gobain and Soliver for illegal market sharing, and exchange of commercially sensitive information regarding deliveries of car glass in the EEA.

The European Commission has fined Automotive Lighting and Hella a total of €26 744 000 for participating in an automotive lighting cartel. Valeo was not fined as it revealed the cartel to the Commission.

The European Commission has fined Tokai Rika, Takata, Autoliv, Toyoda Gosei and Marutaka a total of € 34 million for breaching EU antitrust rules. The companies took part in one or more of four cartels for the supply of car seatbelts, airbags and steering wheels to Japanese car manufacturers in the EEA.

Commission fines parking heaters producer Eberspächer €68 million in cartel settlement. Webasto was not fined because it benefited from immunity for revealing the existence of the cartel to the Commission.

The European Commission has fined Autoliv and TRW a total of € 368 277 000 for breaching EU antitrust rules. Takata was not fined as it revealed the cartels to the Commission.

The European Commission has fined Behr, Calsonic, Denso, Panasonic, Sanden and Valeo a total of € 155 million for taking part in one or more of four cartels concerning supplies of air conditioning and engine cooling components to car manufacturers in the European Economic Area (EEA).

European Commission | Search

ec.europa.eu

 

[Tazzieman]

I am relaxed and waiting with a pocket full of cash for Sir Jim

50s or 100s?

 

[ECrider]

50s or 100s?

View attachment 7808578

think I sat next to owner of those jeans on a plane once

 

[AWo]

I believe that what Ineos Automotive has achieved in a relatively short space of time is truly amazing and the Grenadier is without doubt a brilliant piece of design and engineering that has been brought together by a strong winning team. From a design and engineering perspective Ineos Automotive cannot be faulted but when it comes to PR and communications, they are sadly lacking and clearly do not seem to have experience of dealing directly with consumers.

That is an interesting sight on the Grenadier.

2,7 t for an offroader is not a good design from my perspective. Even the Range Rover 3rd edition was as heavy, but JLR spend million to decrease it around 350 to 450 kg. There must be a value in that, if they do that for a car which is pure luxury (and which can thereby afford to be heavy) and which will see hard offroad conditions more as an exception. Many things were taken from the shelf, so no Ineos development or engineering here. Of course, the job is to marry all these components together, which is not easy. I do not want to depriciate the effort and work from Ineos, but it is far more challenging if you also develop your own engine, axles and gearboxes (of course, what is not common today anymore. Manufacturers think in modules and re-usage in many applications) and maybe also build them on your own.
So what Ineos does in a larger scale is what small manufacturers do for years, taking existing components and create a new car (as an official listed car manufactureer) with some own development, like frame, suspension and body (I could think about Wiesmann, Alpina, TVR, AC Cobra, Kamei, Sbarro, Bitter, Brabus, and AMG before it became Mercedes if I remember that correctly).

If you listen to people from the automotive industry, the former top managers or engineers you almost always hear, that the F&C department rules over engineering. That costs always cut down good engineering. The automotive market if full of examples where that happened and played bad for the manufacturer, leading in high costs to mitigate things afterwards. But they still remain to do so and cut costs, even in the third or fourth digit behind the period. That encumbers the development. Just check prototypes for example and what the outcome is in the series. One example I can remember was the VW Amarok. Its protoypes had a great 4x4 setup, but what entered the market was the worst of both options showed to the public before. Even when a model is in production, small options are silently removed to save costs later.

My cents on all that struggle is:

1. Ineos always announces when they are ready first....without knowing anything or having anything than an idea at that point...that is common for Ineos.
2. By doing so, they put a lot of pressure on themselves. Now they have to deliver. However, the car is three to four years behind the schedule (and obviously not 100% ready, yet).
3. Ineos often has an attidute to be the great master, getting experienced people on bord to late or not listening to them.
4. Now the commercial pressure is extremly high, what leads to the necessity to get money in, not only out. That beside the public pressure from announcing delivery dates which were too early, too early while claiming exceptional quality.
5. No manufacturer would normaly accept that technicians have to visit dealers around the world to fix things under public eyes (especially on their very first modell which sets the mark and reputation for years to come). What they accept from time to time is to staple the cars in their factories, but in this case lack of space made it necessary to get the cars to the dealers.
6. Poor processes add to the mess all can see and feel now. At a certain point it seem that control was lost. First cars were produce with rails, regardless of what the customer has ordered. No time (and no money) to hold them back until problems are fixed? Why that hurry?

Good things need time to develop. But if you raise the bar as high as Ineos did, create pressure where not necessary, if you permanently rake the expectations no one should wonder if that wave collapses over you if you can't deliver then. If the ego is larger than the speed of development (of all things, car, processes, etc.)...

AWo

 

[TD5-90]

Is there a car manufacturer that hasn't lied?

From Ford with their Pinto gas tanks, VW and others caught in dieselgate, Daimler, BMW, Audi and Porsche in the adblue cartel.

The whole industry gets huge fines on a regular basis:

Commission fines two European companies (SKF and Schaeffler) and four Japanese companies (JTEKT, NSK, NFC and NTN with its French subsidiary NTN-SNR), producers of car and truck bearings € 953 million in cartel settlement.

Commission has found that Bosch (Germany), Denso and NGK (both Japan) participated in a cartel concerning supplies of spark plugs to car manufacturers in the EEA and imposed a total fine of €76 million.

The European Commission has imposed fines of € 137 789 000 on Melco (Mitsubishi Electric) and Hitachi for participating in a cartel for alternators and starters with another firm, Denso.

The European Commission has imposed fines, totalling € 1 354 896 000 on Asahi, Pilkington, Saint-Gobain and Soliver for illegal market sharing, and exchange of commercially sensitive information regarding deliveries of car glass in the EEA.

The European Commission has fined Automotive Lighting and Hella a total of €26 744 000 for participating in an automotive lighting cartel. Valeo was not fined as it revealed the cartel to the Commission.

The European Commission has fined Tokai Rika, Takata, Autoliv, Toyoda Gosei and Marutaka a total of € 34 million for breaching EU antitrust rules. The companies took part in one or more of four cartels for the supply of car seatbelts, airbags and steering wheels to Japanese car manufacturers in the EEA.

Commission fines parking heaters producer Eberspächer €68 million in cartel settlement. Webasto was not fined because it benefited from immunity for revealing the existence of the cartel to the Commission.

The European Commission has fined Autoliv and TRW a total of € 368 277 000 for breaching EU antitrust rules. Takata was not fined as it revealed the cartels to the Commission.

The European Commission has fined Behr, Calsonic, Denso, Panasonic, Sanden and Valeo a total of € 155 million for taking part in one or more of four cartels concerning supplies of air conditioning and engine cooling components to car manufacturers in the European Economic Area (EEA).

European Commission | Search

ec.europa.eu

Are you saying that the EC is doing good or bad? Can't really tell from what you're writing.

It's really strange: People who _never_ever_ would succeed in getting some useful product like a car into production are telling those who are out there at war every day what they are supposedly doing wrong...

 

[Cheshire cat]

AWo
A very well written piece.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Are you saying that the EC is doing good or bad? Can't really tell from what you're writing.

It's really strange: People who _never_ever_ would succeed in getting some useful product like a car into production are telling those who are out there at war every day what they are supposedly doing wrong...

Not sure if that was what AWo was getting at. The most superb company can still be subject to criticism and some speculation. I am interested in what AWo has to say however it doesn't have an effect on my enthusiasm.

 

[Tazzieman]

It's really strange: People who _never_ever_ would succeed in getting some useful product like a car into production are telling those who are out there at war every day what they are supposedly doing wrong...

Some people like to throw mud to see if it sticks. It is a human failing. A dog would never do that.

 

[AWo]

As you can see I referred to the first post which I quoted....nothing to do with the EC.

AWo

 

[Steveo]

Except the issue with the brake hoses, as described and as seen in a photo, seems to be just a simple installation error of over-tightening/not being careful enough and causing twist.

As per Goodridge installation notes:
View attachment 7808509

Thanks @DCPU I wasn’t aware of this, must’ve missed that post.

 

[Steveo]

think I sat next to owner of those jeans on a plane once

I hope he was wearing them

 

[bemax]

Don't worry so much. There is always something unpredictable, especially with the launch of new products. You have to stay calm. Not only for us customers, but also for INEOS employees and managers. If I spoke as frantically and hastily as I sometimes do here on the forum (I don't mean you!), we would not manage to get a product from development to production.
My Grenadier would have been ready for collection from the dealer at the end of January, now it will be the end of April. I can only repeat myself. A company must be careful with the information it gives to the outside world. Only then can it successfully defend itself against critics (see emax thread). I know that it will continue. Hang in there!

I am with you. For me another assuring bit is that the dealers- although neither in a good position- are more or less happy and relaxed. They know what’s going wrong and how it will be fixed and follow the way. Important seems to be that the staff of Ineos is obviously working hard on everting and acts as real partners to the dealers.
That’s at least the image I got for the German market.

 

[Will I like it? - Yep!]

At this stage, Ineos should tell the dealers to throw in a couple of Grenadier caps on delivery and get a photo of the smiling owners wearing them. Something free always goes a long way to smooth the waters.
You can't buy that sort of PR. CAN YOU INEOS!!?

A cap - aim higher - a nice Belstaff jacket for those of us who have gone cheap or maybe a cap and a mug
R

 

[AnD3rew]

2,7 t for an offroader is not a good design from my perspective. Even the Range Rover 3rd edition was as heavy, but JLR spend million to decrease it around 350 to 450 kg. There must be a value in that, if they do that for a car which is pure luxury (and which can thereby afford to be heavy) and which will see hard offroad conditions more as an exception.

AWo

Everything in life is a compromise. If you want a heavy duty ladder frame and heavy duty beam axles etc there is a weight penalty to that. Light 4x4s float over sand etc, heavy 4x4s last a long time and can take a beating.

 

[To]

That is an interesting sight on the Grenadier.

2,7 t for an offroader is not a good design from my perspective. Even the Range Rover 3rd edition was as heavy, but JLR spend million to decrease it around 350 to 450 kg. There must be a value in that, if they do that for a car which is pure luxury (and which can thereby afford to be heavy) and which will see hard offroad conditions more as an exception. Many things were taken from the shelf, so no Ineos development or engineering here. Of course, the job is to marry all these components together, which is not easy. I do not want to depriciate the effort and work from Ineos, but it is far more challenging if you also develop your own engine, axles and gearboxes (of course, what is not common today anymore. Manufacturers think in modules and re-usage in many applications) and maybe also build them on your own.
So what Ineos does in a larger scale is what small manufacturers do for years, taking existing components and create a new car (as an official listed car manufactureer) with some own development, like frame, suspension and body (I could think about Wiesmann, Alpina, TVR, AC Cobra, Kamei, Sbarro, Bitter, Brabus, and AMG before it became Mercedes if I remember that correctly).

If you listen to people from the automotive industry, the former top managers or engineers you almost always hear, that the F&C department rules over engineering. That costs always cut down good engineering. The automotive market if full of examples where that happened and played bad for the manufacturer, leading in high costs to mitigate things afterwards. But they still remain to do so and cut costs, even in the third or fourth digit behind the period. That encumbers the development. Just check prototypes for example and what the outcome is in the series. One example I can remember was the VW Amarok. Its protoypes had a great 4x4 setup, but what entered the market was the worst of both options showed to the public before. Even when a model is in production, small options are silently removed to save costs later.

My cents on all that struggle is:

1. Ineos always announces when they are ready first....without knowing anything or having anything than an idea at that point...that is common for Ineos.
2. By doing so, they put a lot of pressure on themselves. Now they have to deliver. However, the car is three to four years behind the schedule (and obviously not 100% ready, yet).
3. Ineos often has an attidute to be the great master, getting experienced people on bord to late or not listening to them.
4. Now the commercial pressure is extremly high, what leads to the necessity to get money in, not only out. That beside the public pressure from announcing delivery dates which were too early, too early while claiming exceptional quality.
5. No manufacturer would normaly accept that technicians have to visit dealers around the world to fix things under public eyes (especially on their very first modell which sets the mark and reputation for years to come). What they accept from time to time is to staple the cars in their factories, but in this case lack of space made it necessary to get the cars to the dealers.
6. Poor processes add to the mess all can see and feel now. At a certain point it seem that control was lost. First cars were produce with rails, regardless of what the customer has ordered. No time (and no money) to hold them back until problems are fixed? Why that hurry?

Good things need time to develop. But if you raise the bar as high as Ineos did, create pressure where not necessary, if you permanently rake the expectations no one should wonder if that wave collapses over you if you can't deliver then. If the ego is larger than the speed of development (of all things, car, processes, etc.)...

AWo

We have already had a lot of things here. The weight of the Grenadier is very welcome to some. The car is not designed purely as an off-road climbing machine, but as a work and carrier vehicle for rough terrain. Therefore, in my eyes, everything done right. It is also completely ignored that Covid has slowed everything down, that we now have the Ukraine war and Ineos actually want to bring a perfect auto to the market. They are not too shy to carry out optimization measures in front of their customers. I think that's great. I recently sat in a Grenadier again. Back in my Defender I was in tears. What a put-together box. Hard to believe after 25 years. My Grenadier is supposed to be in logistics to get to the dealer. The time until the handover drags miserably.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

[AWo]

heavy 4x4s last a long time and can take a beating.

That is not my experience as weight is a penalty itself to all components.

AWo

 

[To]

That is not my experience as weight is a penalty itself to all components.

AWo

If an oil tanker were built of balsa wood, we would all be ride a bicycle. I see it completely differently and it does not correspond to my experience. The Suzuki Jimmy broke into different parts and the HZJ passed.