Grenadier Cross-Shopping?

[MileHigh]

Well said. I have owned many Toyotas, but I am also pretty frustrated with them now. They could have put an 8-speed transmission in the 4-Runner ages ago, and this would have helped fuel economy and overall driveability of the vehicle, and they consistently seem to do as little as possible to keep the Tacoma competitive: the 3.5 was a poor choice for a truck and its performance is the worst in the class, the new frame is flexy, tire options are limited and have fallen way behind other midsize trucks (Jeep, Chevy, and Ford's next Ranger), the seating position has remained a grievance among even die-hard Tacoma fans, it still has drum brakes in the rear, which Toyota says are better off-road (but all their other top off-road vehicles, like the Landcruiser, FJ Cruiser, and 4-Runner have disc brakes in the rear), and the latest Tacoma doesn't seem to have the same reliability of previous generations. But Tacomas are the best-selling midsize truck in the U.S. and - at least around here - the 4-Runner is enormously popular, so until consumers vote with their wallets, Toyota has little incentive to change.

Despite all that bitching, I'm very happy with our 4-Runner (except the transmission), and I wish that our Tacoma had been built to the same spec and quality as the 4-Runner. Most Landcruisers, 4-Runners, and FJ-Cruisers are built in Japan. Sadly, American-made Tacomas have no where near the quality as the 4x4s made in the Japanese factories.

The 5speed and the lack of full time 4WD, outside of the Limited model, is what mad me pass. Who knows what it will be replaced with, and the Land Crusier may come back, who knows. The IG seems a bit bigger in the cabin, the view from the drivers seat in a 4Runner, to me, is a bit cramped. I’d rather have a true sunroof, but the buttons on the IG are nice. A rolling back window and ‘roof’ of a folding gate like in the 4Runner are different than the bifold door in IG.

Considering that the US models Won’t be here for a year, I wonder what the prices on the US models are going to be. My guess is higher than we’d like…

 

[DCPU]

I know we think of the competition in terms of what's available in our region, but it's interesting to see where the total sales go at a global level.

"2021 Results: #JeepWrangler is by far the world's most popular off-roader, despite increasing competition. The off-road D-SUVs found 688k new clients last year, up 24%. Sales increased thanks to new #WeyTank300 #FordBronco, although the latter could have done much better."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1573376217692225537

I have a vague recollection that Ineos were going into the Chinese Market.

 

[DaveB]

I know we think of the competition in terms of what's available in our region, but it's interesting to see where the total sales go at a global level.

View attachment 7793919
View attachment 7793918

"2021 Results: #JeepWrangler is by far the world's most popular off-roader, despite increasing competition. The off-road D-SUVs found 688k new clients last year, up 24%. Sales increased thanks to new #WeyTank300 #FordBronco, although the latter could have done much better."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1573376217692225537

I have a vague recollection that Ineos were going into the Chinese Market.

I don't know where they got those figures from but I think they probably came from USA. of the 237,000 Jeep Wranglers sold globally 201,310 were sold in USA. down 27,000 from 2019. Only 5,765 Jeeps of all types were sold in Australia where 4wd's & SUV's are the most popular selling vehicles. I thought the FJ Cruiser was discontinued in 2018, could be wrong there. Is the Prado actually sold in the USA? I didn't think the 70 series was sold in the US either

 

[stickshifter]

The only vehicles on this list sold in the U.S. are the Jeep Wrangler, LR Defender, Ford Bronco, and the Lexus GX. The last year of sales for the FJ Cruiser in the American market was 2014 (though it continued to be sold in other markets). Sales of the FJ were discontinued in Japan in 2018, but it continues to get sold in Chile, parts of the Middle East, and in some countries in southern Africa (according to Wikipedia). We have never had the other vehicles on this list here in the U.S. I would guess that many Americans interested in the Grenadier have long looked wistfully at the 70-Series Landcruiser - not that I know anyone in that group, of course

These are Jeep Wrangler sales in the U.S. according to GoodCarBadCar. You can see the impact on sales of the new model (the JL) which rolled out in 2018. I think we also see the impact of the pandemic and supply-chain issues starting in 2020, though the drop in sales may be related to other things as well (new entries to the market perhaps). The second largest market for the Wrangler is Japan, where sales lately have been between 10,000 - 15,000 per year.

2016	191,788
2017	190,522
2018	240,032
2019	228,042
2020	201,310
2021	204,610

The Wrangler is a great vehicle if you don't need a lot of payload or towing capability, and if you can tolerate a little bit of play in the steering wheel - it certainly does not handle on-road like a sports car And of course, some people love a convertible. But the Wrangler just isn't the right vehicle for Australia - at least not for the folks who really use their 4x4s for longer touring. There are other options with better range, sturdier frames and suspension components, higher payload, and higher towing capacity. But if you opt for the Rubicon (locking front and rear diffs, and a 4:1 low range), and the Recon Off-Road package (35-inch tires, correct gearing from the factory, and a 2-inch factory-built suspension lift) - nothing is as good right out of the box for rock-crawling or other technical off-roading. And, the whole thing comes with a full factory warranty.

 

[DaveB]

The only vehicles on this list sold in the U.S. are the Jeep Wrangler, LR Defender, Ford Bronco, and the Lexus GX. The last year of sales for the FJ Cruiser in the American market was 2014 (though it continued to be sold in other markets). Sales of the FJ were discontinued in Japan in 2018, but it continues to get sold in Chile, parts of the Middle East, and in some countries in southern Africa (according to Wikipedia). We have never had the other vehicles on this list here in the U.S. I would guess that many Americans interested in the Grenadier have long looked wistfully at the 70-Series Landcruiser - not that I know anyone in that group, of course

These are Jeep Wrangler sales in the U.S. according to GoodCarBadCar. You can see the impact on sales of the new model (the JL) which rolled out in 2018. I think we also see the impact of the pandemic and supply-chain issues starting in 2020, though the drop in sales may be related to other things as well (new entries to the market perhaps). The second largest market for the Wrangler is Japan, where sales lately have been between 10,000 - 15,000 per year.

2016	191,788
2017	190,522
2018	240,032
2019	228,042
2020	201,310
2021	204,610

The Wrangler is a great vehicle if you don't need a lot of payload or towing capability, and if you can tolerate a little bit of play in the steering wheel - it certainly does not handle on-road like a sports car And of course, some people love a convertible. But the Wrangler just isn't the right vehicle for Australia - at least not for the folks who really use their 4x4s for longer touring. There are other options with better range, sturdier frames and suspension components, higher payload, and higher towing capacity. But if you opt for the Rubicon (locking front and rear diffs, and a 4:1 low range), and the Recon Off-Road package (35-inch tires, correct gearing from the factory, and a 2-inch factory-built suspension lift) - nothing is as good right out of the box for rock-crawling or other technical off-roading. And, the whole thing comes with a full factory warranty.

I am sure I wrote on here somewhere months ago that I had taken a Wrangler for a test drive and it was a horrible vehicle in my opinion and I couldn't imagine anyone taking it seriously in Australia. Certainly no mining companies or serious overlanders. Poor build quality, noisy, wandered all over the road and the engine/gearbox seemed to have a conflict on what they wanted to do together. If it was just a dedicated toy it would be great fun but not as a serious daily vehicle.

 

[stickshifter]

I am sure I wrote on here somewhere months ago that I had taken a Wrangler for a test drive and it was a horrible vehicle in my opinion and I couldn't imagine anyone taking it seriously in Australia. Certainly no mining companies or serious overlanders. Poor build quality, noisy, wandered all over the road and the engine/gearbox seemed to have a conflict on what they wanted to do together. If it was just a dedicated toy it would be great fun but not as a serious daily vehicle.

I'm not brand-loyal, so I feel no need to stand up for Jeep. In fact, I have been rather frustrated with Jeep on-and-off. But it sounds to me like you might have had a poorly-built one on your test drive.

Noisy - absolutely

Wandering on road - yeah, but this can vary, so its always hard to know what a person means. There was a recall for the aluminum steering box, and it was replaced with a cast-iron box that markedly improved handling on-road. But even after the recall, Wranglers have play in the steering wheel. Long-time owners of solid axle vehicles (especially Jeeps) aren't bothered by "normal" Jeep wandering, but everyone was appalled by the wandering associated with the aluminum steering box. Lastly, if one wants to eliminate 95% of "normal" Jeep wandering, one can replace the front-end suspension / steering components (tie rod, drag link, track bar, and ball joints). I replaced all these components when I replaced the front axle in my JK, and that made a world of difference. It handled with precision - even by "car" standards. But one might ask, "why do I have to replace all these components to get my Jeep to drive in a straight line?"

Engine/Gearbox: this one really surprises me, and makes me wonder if you had a lemon. I have driven a bunch of the 'new' Wranglers (the JL model which came out in 2018). One of the great upgrades found in the JL is the ZF 8-speed auto transmission (same one that's going in the Grenadier). Everyone of these I have driven shifted like a dream - like it was reading my mind. Quick, crisp shifts. Now... if you were in a manual transmission, I think the story is a little different: the clutch is weak, the pick-up is very low to the floor, and the gearing is lame: in a 6-speed the top two gears are both overdrive, which means you only have 4 gears to take you from 0 to top cruising speed - so the spacing sucks. But all you need to do is drop in a Chevy LS V8, and a Centerforce clutch, and you're good to go

Poor Build Quality: I'm partially with you here. Some things seem poorly thought-out and put-together for what is no longer a cheap little Jeep. For example, the electrical cables from the tail lights run through the passenger compartment - they are not sandwiched between the outer sheet metal and the inner liner like you would find in a car. The hard top is basically flimsy and water always drips off the roof onto your leg when you open the door during or after some rain, the defrost vents for the windshield don't really blow on the windshield - so you can get fog or even frost on the inside of the windshield that is slow to go away, and ice can build-up on the outside of the windshield, and there are some other quirks that can be annoying. But a lot of the vehicle feels sturdy and well-put together (to me). You've got a good manual transfer case, a manual parking brake, the switch gear in the cabin is solid, the heated steering wheel is amazing if you live somewhere that gets 40-50 degrees below freezing. I think the build quality is better for some things and worse for others compared to my 2017 Tacoma. But there is no doubt that Jeep will produce a higher rate of 'lemons' than the Japanese factories that make Landcruisers, 4-Runners, and FJ Cruisers.

But in the end, I agree that the Wrangler is more of a toy while the 70-Series is a true workhorse that will run until (or through) the apocalypse.

 

[DaveB]

I'm not brand-loyal, so I feel no need to stand up for Jeep. In fact, I have been rather frustrated with Jeep on-and-off. But it sounds to me like you might have had a poorly-built one on your test drive.

Noisy - absolutely

Wandering on road - yeah, but this can vary, so its always hard to know what a person means. There was a recall for the aluminum steering box, and it was replaced with a cast-iron box that markedly improved handling on-road. But even after the recall, Wranglers have play in the steering wheel. Long-time owners of solid axle vehicles (especially Jeeps) aren't bothered by "normal" Jeep wandering, but everyone was appalled by the wandering associated with the aluminum steering box. Lastly, if one wants to eliminate 95% of "normal" Jeep wandering, one can replace the front-end suspension / steering components (tie rod, drag link, track bar, and ball joints). I replaced all these components when I replaced the front axle in my JK, and that made a world of difference. It handled with precision - even by "car" standards. But one might ask, "why do I have to replace all these components to get my Jeep to drive in a straight line?"

Engine/Gearbox: this one really surprises me, and makes me wonder if you had a lemon. I have driven a bunch of the 'new' Wranglers (the JL model which came out in 2018). One of the great upgrades found in the JL is the ZF 8-speed auto transmission (same one that's going in the Grenadier). Everyone of these I have driven shifted like a dream - like it was reading my mind. Quick, crisp shifts. Now... if you were in a manual transmission, I think the story is a little different: the clutch is weak, the pick-up is very low to the floor, and the gearing is lame: in a 6-speed the top two gears are both overdrive, which means you only have 4 gears to take you from 0 to top cruising speed - so the spacing sucks. But all you need to do is drop in a Chevy LS V8, and a Centerforce clutch, and you're good to go

Poor Build Quality: I'm partially with you here. Some things seem poorly thought-out and put-together for what is no longer a cheap little Jeep. For example, the electrical cables from the tail lights run through the passenger compartment - they are not sandwiched between the outer sheet metal and the inner liner like you would find in a car. The hard top is basically flimsy and water always drips off the roof onto your leg when you open the door during or after some rain, the defrost vents for the windshield don't really blow on the windshield - so you can get fog or even frost on the inside of the windshield that is slow to go away, and ice can build-up on the outside of the windshield, and there are some other quirks that can be annoying. But a lot of the vehicle feels sturdy and well-put together (to me). You've got a good manual transfer case, a manual parking brake, the switch gear in the cabin is solid, the heated steering wheel is amazing if you live somewhere that gets 40-50 degrees below freezing. I think the build quality is better for some things and worse for others compared to my 2017 Tacoma. But there is no doubt that Jeep will produce a higher rate of 'lemons' than the Japanese factories that make Landcruisers, 4-Runners, and FJ Cruisers.

But in the end, I agree that the Wrangler is more of a toy while the 70-Series is a true workhorse that will run until (or through) the apocalypse.

Really good and non-biased reply.
I will add a couple of comments

1. Road quality in Australia is generally poor, so it will show up any suspension, steering or NVH issues
2. I had to keep correcting the steering which may be caused by the change from LHD to RHD
3. I currently drive a Mercedes so stepping out of it into any vehicle can be a challenge.
4. I drove both the manual and the auto, the manual was a chore to drive, the auto was better but didn't seem to be tuned to the engine. I tend to drive with my 7 speed manual in sport mode 95% of the time.
5. It was a warm day and the aircon was very noisy trying to have an impact on 35 degree day.
6. I tried two different models but neither were the Rubicon and I thought they were about a $50K vehicle based on the interior fit and finish. So I was stunned when I got the actual prices.

 

[DaveB]

This guy does a great review of the Wrangler and has a good sense of humour

 

[DaveB]

Also a great review on the Defender 110

 

[DCPU]

though the drop in sales may be related to other things as well (new entries to the market perhaps).

I wonder how many sales have been lost to the like of Can Am, Honda, etc with their SxS models?

 

[DaveB]

I wonder how many sales have been lost to the like of Can Am, Honda, etc with their SxS models?

That isn't very big in Australia as we normally use our 4wds as daily drivers. Side by sides (not a term used here) can only be registered as a specialist vehicle under strict conditions. So a toy.

 

[DCPU]

Tiny market in UK also - although they can be made road legal relatively easily - I was thinking more of the US market

 

[stickshifter]

The 5speed and the lack of full time 4WD, outside of the Limited model, is what mad me pass. Who knows what it will be replaced with, and the Land Crusier may come back, who knows. The IG seems a bit bigger in the cabin, the view from the drivers seat in a 4Runner, to me, is a bit cramped. I’d rather have a true sunroof, but the buttons on the IG are nice. A rolling back window and ‘roof’ of a folding gate like in the 4Runner are different than the bifold door in IG.

Considering that the US models Won’t be here for a year, I wonder what the prices on the US models are going to be. My guess is higher than we’d like…

That is interesting that you think the Grenadier is more spacious! I drove our 4Runner to the Overland Expo, and then sat in the Grenadier. I'm pretty sure that the 4Runner has more room in the cabin. I could probably find measurements for each, but that seems like a lot of work right now. The space in the foot well for both driver and passenger is definitely bigger in the 4Runner, and overall it feels like there is more room. But that's the only area I think the 4Runner has the Grenadier beat. I prefer the Grenadier for its full-time 4-wheel drive, solid front axle, slightly lower low-range, heavier frame, locking front diff (we have a locking rear diff in our 4Runner), and the 8-speed ZF is a huge upgrade over the Toyota's 5-speed!

 

[MileHigh]

That is interesting that you think the Grenadier is more spacious! I drove our 4Runner to the Overland Expo, and then sat in the Grenadier. I'm pretty sure that the 4Runner has more room in the cabin. I could probably find measurements for each, but that seems like a lot of work right now. The space in the foot well for both driver and passenger is definitely bigger in the 4Runner, and overall it feels like there is more room. But that's the only area I think the 4Runner has the Grenadier beat. I prefer the Grenadier for its full-time 4-wheel drive, solid front axle, slightly lower low-range, heavier frame, locking front diff (we have a locking rear diff in our 4Runner), and the 8-speed ZF is a huge upgrade over the Toyota's 5-speed!

The current 4Runner seems to almost have a ‘Pillbox’ view from the drivers seat, it feels a bit cramped up and down, might just be me.

Of course, I’m thinking more of the next generation 4Runner, but the longer it takes to come out, the less it will likely be what I want- less complex and more basic. Sometimes I wonder if the current 4Runner will end up like the FJ, people covet the older models. There are so many 4Runners out there I don’t think it will ever get to that point- but the more ‘tweaked’ the next model- a 4 cyLinder turbo’d to an inch of its life, EV implementation or other silliness, the more people will value the older models.

 

[painter]

The current 4Runner seems to almost have a ‘Pillbox’ view from the drivers seat, it feels a bit cramped up and down, might just be me.

Of course, I’m thinking more of the next generation 4Runner, but the longer it takes to come out, the less it will likely be what I want- less complex and more basic. Sometimes I wonder if the current 4Runner will end up like the FJ, people covet the older models. There are so many 4Runners out there I don’t think it will ever get to that point- but the more ‘tweaked’ the next model- a 4 cyLinder turbo’d to an inch of its life, EV implementation or other silliness, the more people will value the older models.

Definately more front seat seat headroom in the Grenadier. The rest, not so sure.

Funny, I've been researching (again) the idea of importing a LC 70 series. Been reading about the history and evolution. The phrase, "if it ain't broke, never fix it." keeps coming up. Has me thinking the new gen 4Runner could be years out.

Prob not, and I might even live long enough to see it, but Mr Toyota can drag changes out for a very long time, like ice age time.

 

[stickshifter]

The current 4Runner seems to almost have a ‘Pillbox’ view from the drivers seat, it feels a bit cramped up and down, might just be me.

Of course, I’m thinking more of the next generation 4Runner, but the longer it takes to come out, the less it will likely be what I want- less complex and more basic. Sometimes I wonder if the current 4Runner will end up like the FJ, people covet the older models. There are so many 4Runners out there I don’t think it will ever get to that point- but the more ‘tweaked’ the next model- a 4 cyLinder turbo’d to an inch of its life, EV implementation or other silliness, the more people will value the older models.

I think you are spot-on: the next gen 4Runner will probably follow the lead of the Landcruiser 300, and be a smaller forced-induction engine (possibly a 4-cylinder), and will be more electronic and less mechanical. I'm not sure if the frame will continue to be fully boxed - they might go to the lighter-weight C-Channel frame as found in the current Tacoma (which is inferior to the current 4Runner - in my experience). Another thing that seems inevitable, is that they will replace the logical and efficient HVAC controls with a "higher-tech" set of controls that requires multiple adjustments to do something you can do with a single adjustment in the current version of the Off-Road and SR5.

The current 4Runner is one of the last good, honest, body-on-frame, relatively simple 4x4s in the American market. Yeah, the transmission is as old as the dinosaurs, but apart from that, its a great vehicle. I am quite certain that after the new 4Runner arrives, the current 4Runner will go up in value, just like the FJ Cruiser has done.

 

[stickshifter]

Definately more front seat seat headroom in the Grenadier. The rest, not so sure.

Funny, I've been researching (again) the idea of importing a LC 70 series. Been reading about the history and evolution. The phrase, "if it ain't broke, never fix it." keeps coming up. Has me thinking the new gen 4Runner could be years out.

Prob not, and I might even live long enough to see it, but Mr Toyota can drag changes out for a very long time, like ice age time.

Head room - yes, I agree that the Grenadier is more roomy (taller roof).
Front seats foot space and leg room - the 4Runner has more space.
Shoulder room - again, the 4Runner has more space.

My wife and I sat for a couple of hours in the 4Runner, then about 15 minutes in the Grenadier, then back into the 4Runner, and both agree on the space comparison. Yeah, it would have been better if we could have driven the Grenadier for an hour, but this was at the Mountain West Overland Expo, and we were lucky to sit in a stationary Grenadier for 15 minutes. I'm not wanting to be argumentative, this was just our assessment. I'm sure there are objective measurements somewhere, but I'm not going to look for them

 

[stickshifter]

Definately more front seat seat headroom in the Grenadier. The rest, not so sure.

Funny, I've been researching (again) the idea of importing a LC 70 series. Been reading about the history and evolution. The phrase, "if it ain't broke, never fix it." keeps coming up. Has me thinking the new gen 4Runner could be years out.

Prob not, and I might even live long enough to see it, but Mr Toyota can drag changes out for a very long time, like ice age time.

If you move forward with importing a LC 70 series, I'd love to hear about your experience. I'm pretty sure that the V8 diesel does not meet U.S. emissions, and in today's climate, I don't know if there is a way around that. But if you learn something, feel free to share! With the success of the Wrangler (~200,000 units sold per year), it is crazy to me that Toyota doesn't try to update the 70 just enough to pass emissions (if it doesn't have them already - it would need airbags and a back-up camera too), and sell it here in the U.S.

 

[MileHigh]

I think you are spot-on: the next gen 4Runner will probably follow the lead of the Landcruiser 300, and be a smaller forced-induction engine (possibly a 4-cylinder), and will be more electronic and lass mechanical. I'm not sure if the frame will continue to be fully boxed - they might go to the lighter-weight C-Channel frame as found in the current Tacoma (which is inferior to the current 4Runner - in my experience). Another thing that seems inevitable, is that they will replace the logical and efficient HVAC controls with a "higher-tech" set of controls that requires multiple adjustments to do something you can do with a single adjustment in the current version of the Off-Road and SR5.

The current 4Runner is one of the last good, honest, body-on-frame, relatively simple 4x4s in the American market. Yeah, the transmission is as old as the dinosaurs, but apart from that, its a great vehicle. I am quite certain that after the new 4Runner arrives, the current 4Runner will go up in value, just like the FJ Cruiser has done.

The transmission was the real deal killer for me. The Apple car play is my preference and the safety stuff (it was mainly going to be a kids car) was good enough. I wonder if they knew that the ‘new’ models would be ‘24 at the earliest, they would have swapped in an 8 speed a few years ago…

 

[stickshifter]

The transmission was the real deal killer for me. The Apple car play is my preference and the safety stuff (it was mainly going to be a kids car) was good enough. I wonder if they knew that the ‘new’ models would be ‘24 at the earliest, they would have swapped in an 8 speed a few years ago…

An 8-speed could carry that truck into the next millennium