Grenadier Cross-Shopping?

[DaveB]

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40896618/ev-pickups-towing-test-hummer-rivian-lightning/

Well I won’t be cross shopping against these.

Add to that the significant impact of ambient temperature on the life of the battery packs and I guess you will be looking to replace them at 8 years and 1 day, right after the warranty wears out.

 

[emax]

These things are doubtlessly powerful high-tech cars and very off road capable.

But they just don't match my idea of a car.

 

[bemax]

These things are doubtlessly powerful high-tech cars and very off road capable.

But they just don't match my idea of a car.

If the range would not be a problem I would love them! I am sure that within the next 10 years nearly anbody prefers a EV against a petrol or diesel engine. We are somewhere around the tipping point right now. The battery technologie is changing rapidly these days. Of course it takes several years to bring the new technology into the real world (and the world of car manufacturers meight be even slower than the rest...). But the direction is quite clear. Less toxic and cheaper materials will be the game changer in this business.
Everybody who loves a horse with a carriages is free to do so. but it probably won't be pure practicality that makes him think that way. The same will probably be true in ten or fifteen years for those who cling to the combustion engine. I may be wrong about the time frames, but the direction seems clear to me.

 

[emax]

I am afraid that EVs will be the future by 'Ordre de Mufti', and this even though there are quite some serious experts which doubt their 'ecological footprint'.

And in face of a lack of electricity in entire Europe and a dramatic price increase of Lithium and other raw materials I am even less convinced of EVs being the foreseeable future of individual mobility. But this discussion is endless.

The governments are pushing EVs with a lot of subsidies - like sour beer, they wouldn't otherwise be bought. And once they have forced the market to not have any more choice, the subsidies wil be stopped - and the consumers will have to pay whatever prices are asked.

Once government subsidies go away, we'll likely see how few people will actually and voluntarily choose an EV. But the future will tell.

Aside this, I still can only say: It's simply not my idea of a car.

 

[bemax]

I am afraid that EVs will be the future by 'Ordre de Mufti', and this even though there are quite some serious experts which doubt their 'ecological footprint'.

And in face of a lack of electricity in entire Europe and a dramatic price increase of Lithium and other raw materials I am even less convinced of EVs being the foreseeable future of individual mobility. But this discussion is endless.

The governments are pushing EVs with a lot of subsidies - like sour beer, they wouldn't otherwise be bought. And once they have forced the market to not have any more choice, the subsidies wil be stopped - and the consumers will have to pay whatever prices are asked.

Once government subsidies go away, we'll likely see how few people will actually and voluntarily choose an EV. But the future will tell.

Aside this, I still can only say: It's simply not my idea of a car.

I am more or less with you regarding the state of technology we are in right now. That’s why I pointed out the changes in the batteries which are to com in the next few years.
I digged a little in this topic the last months and it is quite interesting what might come up. And I do not refer to the ideas of the Green Party! It does not come to my head how they want to change our energy system in a short time.
I just see the torque and the troublefree techniques which make it fun to drive in an EV. It’s quiet and strong.
We will see what the future brings and we should not just listen to the politicians. But we should neither not be interested in a technology just because some green politicians are in favour.

 

[cheswick]

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40896618/ev-pickups-towing-test-hummer-rivian-lightning/

Well I won’t be cross shopping against these.

If the range would not be a problem I would love them! I am sure that within the next 10 years nearly anbody prefers a EV against a petrol or diesel engine. We are somewhere around the tipping point right now. The battery technologie is changing rapidly these days. Of course it takes several years to bring the new technology into the real world (and the world of car manufacturers meight be even slower than the rest...). But the direction is quite clear. Less toxic and cheaper materials will be the game changer in this business.
Everybody who loves a horse with a carriages is free to do so. but it probably won't be pure practicality that makes him think that way. The same will probably be true in ten or fifteen years for those who cling to the combustion engine. I may be wrong about the time frames, but the direction seems clear to me.

To compare the difference between electric and Internal combustion vehicles to horse and carriage is marketing horseshit.

The benefits of a motor car vs a horse and carriage are almost night and day in one direction. Keeping a horse is a very expensive affair. One didn’t simply park their horse and carriage in front of their house. The thing needed shelter, feeding and water just as a baseline. Generally because of the high maintenance nature of a horse you had to hire people to carry out this task for you. It was a very expensive method of transport especially if you were in a city. In the country it was of course cheaper. A motor vehicle wasn’t maintenance free of course but you could park it anywhere and refuelling it took 5 minutes. Yes early motor vehicles were less reliable but we don’t exactly have a jd power reliability assessment of a horse to compare it with.

What are these night and day differences in the economics or convenience between an electric and internal combustion engine. Yeah sure the Rimac Nevera is an impressive supercar or the way that a Tesla drives makes “all other cars look silly” but really there is nothing revolutionary. We’ve had an electric vehicle in our household since 2012 and it is a fun, safe and refined city vehicle but there is nothing about this car that has changed our lives relative to my diesel powered vehicle.

Not to mention there are some significant issues that will make electric vehicles impractical for towing, haulage and other applications that aren’t just zipping around urban areas in a passenger vehicle. The evidence is already clear in what others have shared in this discussion about how seriously the range drops off when towing even a light caravan.

Don’t take it personally, it’s just a bit rude to basically call people luddites because they don’t buy into the marketing around electric vehicles saving the planet.

 

[IG Pop]

Don’t beat me:
Anybody any thoughts, ideas or experience with the Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe ?

 

[cheswick]

Don’t beat me:
Anybody any thoughts, ideas or experience with the Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe ?

25 miles on battery then it cuts over to its petrol engine which is a 2.0l inline 4. That is probably enough for most people to have an electric commute to work I guess.

Personally I’m not a big fan of hybrids just because of the complexity. You take an already complicated engine and then add in the complexity of an electric motor and battery. All I think of is more things to break! And the last thing you want with a Jeep is a reason to deal with Jeep customer service

 

[emax]

I didn't want to trigger an EV vs. combustion discussion. And I share many arguments of both of you.

But btw @CheJ, bemax is by no means somebody who

calls people luddites because they don’t buy into the marketing around electric vehicles saving the planet.

Finally he waits for his Grenadier.

But you will likely know this. ;-)

 

[cheswick]

I didn't want to trigger an EV vs. combustion discussion. And I share many arguments of both of you.

But btw @CheJ, bemax is by no means somebody who


He is finally waiting for his Grenadier.

But you will likely know this. ;-)

I gather as much

It’s more about the media depiction (which unfortunately then gets into our heads) of people who can’t or won’t buy an electric car as backwards. That’s why I said don’t take it personally. Truth is auto manufacturers are salivating at a taxpayer subsidised replacement of the vehicle fleet and the auto journalists will sing the tune of anyone that pays for an ad.

 

[bemax]

To compare the difference between electric and Internal combustion vehicles to horse and carriage and the motor car shows you have just swallowed the marketing horseshit.

The benefits of a motor car vs a horse and carriage are almost night and day in one direction. Keeping a horse is a very expensive affair. One didn’t simply park their horse and carriage in front of their house. The thing needed shelter, feeding and water just as a baseline. Generally because of the high maintenance nature of a horse you had to hire people to carry out this task for you. It was a very expensive method of transport especially if you were in a city. In the country it was of course cheaper. A motor vehicle wasn’t maintenance free of course but you could park it anywhere and refuelling it took 5 minutes. Yes early motor vehicles were less reliable but we don’t exactly have a jd power reliability assessment of a horse to compare it with.

What are these night and day differences in the economics or convenience between an electric and internal combustion engine. Yeah sure the Rimac Nevera is an impressive supercar or the way that a Tesla drives makes “all other cars look silly” but really there is nothing revolutionary. We’ve had an electric vehicle in our household since 2012 and it is a fun, safe and refined city vehicle but there is nothing about this car that has changed our lives relative to my diesel powered vehicle.

Not to mention there are some significant issues that will make electric vehicles impractical for towing, haulage and other applications that aren’t just zipping around urban areas in a passenger vehicle. The evidence is already clear in what others have shared in this discussion about how seriously the range drops off when towing even a light caravan.

Don’t take it personally, it’s just a bit rude to basically call people luddites because they don’t buy into the marketing around electric vehicles saving the planet.

Wow, I never intended to call people who like combustion engines luddites. And for sure the difference between horse carriage and a car is more a revoultion and the way from combustion engines to EV more a evolution. Nevertheless the world is turning and the EV get better and better. The technology of sodium-ion or sodium-sulfur batteries is developing quite fast. I try to make my mind more from r & d articles and podcasts then from political or industrial marketing.
Next to the benefits in noise, torque and less moving parts the battery technology will become evidently cheaper in the next years due to the use of other materials and the economics of scale in production.

Long range and towing will probably be solved quite late but anyway the direction is set.

in all the discussion please do not forget that for me English is not my first language. It is quite a work for me writing here. But it is a good way of practice it as well It would be easier to write everything down in German and put it in deepl.com (as I sometimes do when I am totally lost...)
So maybe I shorten things to much.

We will both agree that there is no white and black (combustion vs. electric) in the world and that we are always in some shade of grey. If it is a light or dark grey in 15 years is not that important to me. We will see than anyway.

 

[bemax]

now I needed so much time to write this piece that everbody has taken my thoughts in advance...
Shit I am to slow!

 

[emax]

What I do remember is when I first drove electric car scooters at the funfair. It was so amazing, so easy and looking back it tells me a lot of the fascination of being "auto-"mobile.

Electric cars are similarly easy to drive and may be they are the answer to the ever growing incapabilities of the many traffic participants nowadays. However, there are likewise changes with motorbikes, if on a different level, though. Honda sells motorbikes where you don't have to switch gears anymore, it's all automatic (but can be overriden manually).

Very convenient, powerful, smart, fuel saving and, as almost everything from Honda, functional and reliable.

But again: That's not my idea of motorbikes. I can't help it. For me, it's a bit like trial motorbikes having stabilization gyroscopes ...

 

[cheswick]

Wow, I never intended to call people who like combustion engines luddites. And for sure the difference between horse carriage and a car is more a revoultion and the way from combustion engines to EV more a evolution. Nevertheless the world is turning and the EV get better and better. The technology of sodium-ion or sodium-sulfur batteries is developing quite fast. I try to make my mind more from r & d articles and podcasts then from political or industrial marketing.
Next to the benefits in noise, torque and less moving parts the battery technology will become evidently cheaper in the next years due to the use of other materials and the economics of scale in production.

Long range and towing will probably be solved quite late but anyway the direction is set.

in all the discussion please do not forget that for me English is not my first language. It is quite a work for me writing here. But it is a good way of practice it as well It would be easier to write everything down in German and put it in deepl.com (as I sometimes do when I am totally lost...)
So maybe I shorten things to much.

We will both agree that there is no white and black (combustion vs. electric) in the world and that we are always in some shade of grey. If it is a light or dark grey in 15 years is not that important to me. We will see than anyway.

I’ve been following battery tech too and one thing I’ve learnt is that R&D announcements very rarely turn into commercial products. I think a lot of research is oversold to attract investment funding. That said it seems like the energy density of batteries is climbing by around 5% every year which makes batteries usable in more applications as time goes by. It will definitely get there one day but my learnt cynicism leaves me less optimistic than most.

Sorry I could have worded my above post a bit better in the first place. It was more directed at the notion that people who don’t buy into electric vehicles being backward that im seeing a lot of lately that I was criticising. It’s a media narrative that is getting repeated more and more. I was actually just reading about a bank that will not lend people money to buy anything but electric cars starting in 2024, obviously with no regard for poorer customers, farmers, etc who really don’t have an option.

 

[emax]

The optimist thinks that we have the best possible batteries one can imagine.

And the pessimist is afraid, that the optimist is right.

 

[emax]

There we have a point: If I see electric cars driving around in my region, they are mainly owned by prosperous people. That's of course nothing reprehensible.

But what I find reprehensible is that they claim to be "non-established" and "alternative" and "sustainable". The latter in particular is questionable: they took every subsidy they could get. This was so when Merkel introduced the premium for buying new, “environmentally friendly” cars in 2008, ensuring that a zillion perfect cars were shredded for the benefit of industry.

And now the same people are driving electric cars, which are by no means competitive, but are subsidized by the taxpayer and therefore by a relevant part by poor people who cannot afford such a car and, since they do not own a house, cannot even charge it on an urban apartment block.

WTF is sustainable about that?

Is it really a surprise that the highest incomes in Germany are found in the electorate of the Liberals and the Greens ... ?

 

[emax]

Ok, politics is creeping in again. Sorry.

I vow to improve.

 

[bemax]

Ok, politics is creeping in again. Sorry.

I vow to improve.

No you will not

 

[DCPU]

A roof and windows

Yours is parked right next door...

 

[globalgregors]

One hopes that EVs can become a practicable solution for urban, short range needs at least - given the crisis in respiratory illnesses etc.

Although as discussed above even this looks like we would need to see a reverse-charging rethink of electricity infrastructure writ large… not just a matter of incentivising hybrids etc as per policy in it’s crude early form.

Practicality for long range is clearly a work in progress and remote/hard use applications presently lack a vector absent some revolutionary alternative not yet on the table.

Optimist in me says Ineos have plenty of incentive to become a player in solving… as an emerging manufacturer unburdened by a legacy fleet.