Front drive shaft broken

[Commodore]

Do anyone know if the Terraflex “high angle” is really any different than the original CV? I had a 2 door 2022 bronco and those rear driveshafts are short and hard on the TC side CV. They use the same CV as a Jeep and owners found that the high angle CV didn’t provide any greater angle than the factory one.

 

[anand]

Do anyone know if the Terraflex “high angle” is really any different than the original CV? I had a 2 door 2022 bronco and those rear driveshafts are short and hard on the TC side CV. They use the same CV as a Jeep and owners found that the high angle CV didn’t provide any greater angle than the factory one.

I don't think that they are inherently better, but they aren't worse, and are a lot more inexpensive than an OEM entire driveshaft

 

[Commodore]

I don't think that they are inherently better, but they aren't worse, and are a lot more inexpensive than an OEM entire driveshaft

I keep hoping for a simple solution to the crappy front driveshaft angles because I want to at least level the front of the truck but won’t do it until a real solution is on offer.

 

[Dokatd]

I keep hoping for a simple solution to the crappy front driveshaft angles because I want to at least level the front of the truck but won’t do it until a real solution is on offer.

Question is how many people would buy and at what price point. There are several real options but they vary wildly in price and leg work.

 

[Commodore]

Question is how many people would buy and at what price point. There are several real options but they vary wildly in price and leg work.

The best solution is to cut and turn the front axle but that isn’t something that I want to deal with. I’m hoping that a combination of dropping the transfer case slightly and a double DC driveshaft might prove to be a workable bolt on solution.

 

[Dokatd]

The best solution is to cut and turn the front axle but that isn’t something that I want to deal with. I’m hoping that a combination of dropping the transfer case slightly and a double DC driveshaft might prove to be a workable bolt on solution.

Yes, that's a solution for sure and could be reasonable on a core exchange. But there are a couple other options that would be vastly cheaper and far less invasive.

For some context I used to build custom axles. I actually hand built the first and only Ford 9" Dana 60 Rover front axle. And I used to build 31 spline Ford 9" Rover axles.

So needless to say I have thoughts on how to solve this problem. But I'd hate to create a solution that is ludicrous for everyone else. I'd rather see something come out that helps stock and lifted truck owners alike.

So are we officially calling this a problem that needs a solution? I know it is for me, but I feel the steering sucks and everyone else says it fine. Hate going down rabbit holes with no rabbit at the end.

 

[Commodore]

Yes, that's a solution for sure and could be reasonable on a core exchange. But there are a couple other options that would be vastly cheaper and far less invasive.

For some context I used to build custom axles. I actually hand built the first and only Ford 9" Dana 60 Rover front axle. And I used to build 31 spline Ford 9" Rover axles.

So needless to say I have thoughts on how to solve this problem. But I'd hate to create a solution that is ludicrous for everyone else. I'd rather see something come out that helps stock and lifted truck owners alike.

So are we officially calling this a problem that needs a solution? I know it is for me, but I feel the steering sucks and everyone else says it fine. Hate going down rabbit holes with no rabbit at the end.

It is an official problem for me. It is a serious enough limitation that I am not even putting a front level shim on the front springs. I would like to lift the rear about 1.5” and the front about 2.5” but no way that is going to happen with that front driveshaft angle.

 

[Dokatd]

It is an official problem for me. It is a serious enough limitation that I am not even putting a front level shim on the front springs. I would like to lift the rear about 1.5” and the front about 2.5” but no way that is going to happen with that front driveshaft angle.

Understood.

Just FYI, dropping the T-case will actually make it worse. Raising the T-case will alleviate the T-case side problem but exacerbates the differential side which has yet to seemingly be a problem so far.

 

[GN4HIR]

Understood.

Just FYI, dropping the T-case will actually make it worse. Raising the T-case will alleviate the T-case side problem but exacerbates the differential side which has yet to seemingly be a problem so far.

Ok, I thought I understood the problem and the relationship of the T-case and differential but your statement seems counter to that understanding. Granted, I learned everything I know from this forum and crawling under my IG every thousand miles to look at the CVs.

 

[DrahthHunter]

maybe a dumb question but if your going to use the lift why not replace the CV shafts with the double cardan with a custom made driveline hell of a lot cheaper than oem spare.

 

[Dokatd]

maybe a dumb question but if your going to use the lift why not replace the CV shafts with the double cardan with a custom made driveline hell of a lot cheaper than oem spare.

Double Double Cardan shafts have been notoriously a pain in the butt. A shaft with a double Cardan at one end with virtually no Joint angle and a Double Cardan at the other end works quite well. This was actually a factory fix for Land Rover on the Series II Discovery. They originally tried Ujoint phasing which had mixed results.

However if you have a notable angle at both the transfer case and the differential this type of layout won't work. Enter the "Double" double Cardan shaft. This type of shaft was kinda never really supposed to be. This is due to the method used to locate the two Ujoints in the double Cardan. There is a ball and a pin along with a socket in each double Cardan joint. This design is rather loose in relative terms. This looseness is generally well tolerated at lower angles and goes unnoticed by the operator for many thousands of miles. But eventually you will find a rebuild or even just some fresh grease can dramatically smooth out the drive shaft.

Now, put two of those joint in a drive shaft and things can get strange. Depending on the severity of the angles you have the joints tend to wear more or less of course. As one wears it can cause the other to wear faster. This cycle can go very fast and quickly lead to vibrations that are notable by the operator. The shaft won't necessarily fail, but they can get pretty rough in relative terms. Especially when compared to typical CV joints.

Double Cardans work well when used at more traditional Ujoint angles with occasional use outside the norm. But if they live outside the norm all day long then they do start to wear quickly. And with their huge mass they can be felt very easily even with minimal wear.

 

[C-Mack]

Double Double Cardans with all the additional joints and components as they wear (especially around the centering balls) will start to rotate about its axis sort of like two people swinging a loose jump rope between them. You’ll never get them to run completely true or without vibration over the long haul so they would be more of a bandaid not something I’d want to trust to daily driving or highway speeds as a permanent solution.

Of course there are folks who will swear by them and have never had any issues but all those extra joints introduce additional failure and maintenance points so keep that in mind.

 

[bamanuke]

maybe a dumb question but if your going to use the lift why not replace the CV shafts with the double cardan with a custom made driveline hell of a lot cheaper than oem spare.

I know of one double cardan available for the Grenadier and one other in development. The one that is available was 2x the cost of a replacement OEM front driveshaft.

 

[DrahthHunter]

Double Double Cardan shafts have been notoriously a pain in the butt. A shaft with a double Cardan at one end with virtually no Joint angle and a Double Cardan at the other end works quite well. This was actually a factory fix for Land Rover on the Series II Discovery. They originally tried Ujoint phasing which had mixed results.

However if you have a notable angle at both the transfer case and the differential this type of layout won't work. Enter the "Double" double Cardan shaft. This type of shaft was kinda never really supposed to be. This is due to the method used to locate the two Ujoints in the double Cardan. There is a ball and a pin along with a socket in each double Cardan joint. This design is rather loose in relative terms. This looseness is generally well tolerated at lower angles and goes unnoticed by the operator for many thousands of miles. But eventually you will find a rebuild or even just some fresh grease can dramatically smooth out the drive shaft.

Now, put two of those joint in a drive shaft and things can get strange. Depending on the severity of the angles you have the joints tend to wear more or less of course. As one wears it can cause the other to wear faster. This cycle can go very fast and quickly lead to vibrations that are notable by the operator. The shaft won't necessarily fail, but they can get pretty rough in relative terms. Especially when compared to typical CV joints.

Double Cardans work well when used at more traditional Ujoint angles with occasional use outside the norm. But if they live outside the norm all day long then they do start to wear quickly. And with their huge mass they can be felt very easily even with minimal wear.

That makes perfect sense thank you very much for that lengthy description! I assume probably run the risk of transfer case output shaft damage with more rotational wieight also?

 

[Dokatd]

That makes perfect sense thank you very much for that lengthy description! I assume probably run the risk of transfer case output shaft damage with more rotational wieight also?

This is accurate. As well as the pinion flange on the diff. Also, when they come apart due to negligence they can cause a hell of a lot of damage. I've seen regular front drive shafts come through the floor of a Defender 90. Imagine how much worse it would be with the extra mass.

Edit: to clarify a good condition Double Cardan at the T-case side is fine. But excess wear of the joint could add a lot of extra stress on the T-case output.

I know of one double cardan available for the Grenadier and one other in development. The one that is available was 2x the cost of a replacement OEM front driveshaft.

With current knowledge you can have a double double Cardan shaft for sub $1k all day long. In fact I bet you could get under $500 if you had to. But I am not convinced this is the best option.

 

[Tom109]

I hate repairing the double cardon centering ball.

 

[Dokatd]

I hate repairing the double cardon centering ball.

There are less than convenient for sure.

 

[bamanuke]

This is accurate. As well as the pinion flange on the diff. Also, when they come apart due to negligence they can cause a hell of a lot of damage. I've seen regular front drive shafts come through the floor of a Defender 90. Imagine how much worse it would be with the extra mass.

Edit: to clarify a good condition Double Cardan at the T-case side is fine. But excess wear of the joint could add a lot of extra stress on the T-case output.


With current knowledge you can have a double double Cardan shaft for sub $1k all day long. In fact I bet you could get under $500 if you had to. But I am not convinced this is the best option.

and where might I get one for the Grenadier at that price? I'm all for giving it a shot, especially at under $500.00.

 

[Dokatd]

and where might I get one for the Grenadier at that price? I'm all for giving it a shot, especially at under $500.00.

It's a standard flange conversion. You can have a local driveline shop build one. There are 1350 and 1310 Double Cardan joints conversions readily available. 1310 is plenty big and allows higher angle in stock form.