What would you say if you could ?

Zimm · Oct 2, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
And IFS, and rack and pinion, and a different suspension setup, and totally upgraded soundproofing, and different audio, and BSM, and adaptive cruise control, and power seats with built in massage, and . . . oh, I guess I’ll just buy a Defender or a Lexus GX550???? It just wouldn’t even be a Grenadier any longer. It always seems to me that CEO’s who say it’s just positioning are usually fooling themselves - and nobody else.

I actually think there's a market for this as is, with a premium interior. The Gwagon made $$ per unit for Merc with a solid front suspension. I have one. It's flaw is it being the worst of all worlds. A truck redesigned for the street, that has crappy articulation and a solid axle. It's re're when you get right down to it, but 99% of those that bought them know as much about suspensions, as they know why a light turns on when a switch is flicked. They bought it because it looked cool, cost enough to show off and was ritzy inside. This has 2 of 3 already.

Max · Oct 2, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
TBH I don’t really get her point(s). They went with a dealer model in North America - but wholly inadequate as a service network solution. THAT’S the problem that needs to be addressed in North America and the primary inhibitor to sales - as successful as it’s been with early adopters. She may be right about the agency model not working in other markets - but that won’t address the issue of market fit and regulatory “ticking clock” in those markets. That’s sort of chasing a peripheral point, IMO. It’s not a nimble SUV and they don’t have an EV strategy for Europe. If they fix the agency model, they will still have a limited addressable market in Europe, with a looming deadline. And on the BMW point - was she saying the BMW engine is the problem and they need to get more basic, or just fix the positioning as more luxury? If the latter, and if that stupid TV commercial is any indication, she thinks they should position as more luxury - but there are MYRIAD issues that will prevent the Grenadier from receiving broad adoption in that category. And it all would fly in the face of the design intent and “built on purpose” mission. Frankly, I found the interview disturbing. When your strategy is at odds with your underlying capability, you have a problem.

A Lightweight ducking and weaving

Or an Escape goat, which refers to a farm animal that's good at sneaking out of its pen, not someone who is blamed for the mistakes of others.

Max · Oct 2, 2024

Max said:
A Lightweight ducking and weaving

Or an Escape goat, which refers to a farm animal that's good at sneaking out of its pen, not someone who is blamed for the mistakes of others.

In fairness, Lyn Calder hit the 4x4 road running but the car is here and we bought it because we wanted it, even when the price was fixed at more than expected.

The Grenadier is on top of the pile in my book, and the BMW diesel is brilliant. I hope all the peripherals relating to it are sorted for whatever reason we think they need to be.

CrazyOldMan · Oct 2, 2024

Zimm said:
I actually think there's a market for this as is, with a premium interior. The Gwagon made $$ per unit for Merc with a solid front suspension. I have one. It's flaw is it being the worst of all worlds. A truck redesigned for the street, that has crappy articulation and a solid axle. It's re're when you get right down to it, but 99% of those that bought them know as much about suspensions, as they know why a light turns on when a switch is flicked. They bought it because it looked cool, cost enough to show off and was ritzy inside. This has 2 of 3 already.

That would seem a very short-lived and short-sighted strategy. Pure image buyers have a comfort-level expectation. I think it’s a very small number who are willing to go purely on looks - especially once the novelty factor wears off. To get that comfort, in my opinion, requires un-Grenadiering the Grenadier. Thus the steering, suspension, etc etc. Maybe a fool and his money are easily parted - but the affluent “Miami scrote” has to be about the most fragile, sensitive being on the planet. That’s why all of them have handicap tags for their Range Rovers with the iridescent PPF wraps. You might be right - but if that’s her game plan - terrifying.

CrazyOldMan · Oct 2, 2024

Thinking more about the points @Zimm made - I guess that’s the idea behind Arcane Works. I’ve got another idea for anyone lurking from Ineos Automotive. It doesn’t address the fundamental issues (service network and European market challenge), but I think it would sell. There are points of vulnerability - such as undercarriage protection, the drive shaft/CV on lifted Grenadiers, etc. Come up with your own version of Toyota TRD - certified solutions under warranty targeted at off-road capability, that are dealer-installed. Call it “The Armoury.” You can still do the namby pamby luxury thing, but your core buyer would LOVE solutions making the Grenadier even more Grenadierery - not less.

Honestly - get Americans a service network and up on 35’s (absurd I know but it is just a thing) and you would probably hit your numbers while you figure out how to deal with Europe.

Tazzieman · Oct 2, 2024

Dear Sir Ratcliffe.
Blah blah blah
Critically yours
Miami Scrote (ret)

CrazyOldMan · Oct 2, 2024

Tazzieman said:
Dear Sir Ratcliffe.
Blah blah blah
Critically yours
Miami Scrote (ret)

Oh my gosh - a RETIRED scrote- the image just got worse. I threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Zimm · Oct 2, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
That would seem a very short-lived and short-sighted strategy. Pure image buyers have a comfort-level expectation.

In the USA, Europa and MBUSA got 28 years of huge per unit gravy turning a mil-spec 461 into a luxury/rugged 463. Superficial people like an image, and will pay for it. Considering what some Nantucket housewife that couldn't drive a stick paid for my 110NAS 15 years ago, just to "fit in", I think the business model is rather well established as the best long term strategy in the auto market.

CrazyOldMan · Oct 2, 2024

Zimm said:
In the USA, Europa and MBUSA got 28 years of huge per unit gravy turning a mil-spec 461 into a luxury/rugged 463. Superficial people like an image, and will pay for it. Considering what some Nantucket housewife that couldn't drive a stick paid for my 110NAS 15 years ago, just to "fit in", I think the business model is rather well established as the best long term strategy in the auto market.

But don’t you think they would have to do more than interior finish? Maybe it’s enough - maybe if you made it so over the top that it was basically inaccessible, then they would want it and be willing to suffer in silence.

Tazzieman · Oct 2, 2024

Zimm said:
Superficial people like an image, and will pay for it.

Very true

wolftimj · Oct 2, 2024

Dear Mr Ratcliffe,

Where’s my damn jacket?

Sincerely,
One Of Your Texas Beta Testers

Zimm · Oct 2, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
But don’t you think they would have to do more than interior finish? Maybe it’s enough - maybe if you made it so over the top that it was basically inaccessible, then they would want it and be willing to suffer in silence.

Why? 90% of expensive cars come in grey, black, or old man tan, and tarted up like a bronco raptor isn’t what I tend to see at the CC. It’s distinctive enough.

When it comes to buying stupid shit for superficial reasons, I’m speaking from experience here.

I may have already committed that crime in this instance.

ANNML · Oct 3, 2024

I would tell him the Grenadier is the coolest car I’ve ever owned and will ever own.

I would ask how on earth the unbelievably annoying speed alarms made it past the decision making phase without any option to disable it. Did no one drive it orrrrrr …..??? Boggles the mind.

I would tell him he needs to hire a customer relations director, a service analyst or whatever — and get a clear picture of all of the unmet needs and service issues. Then prioritize, make a plan, and get on it. And while that process is underway, figure out a way to mitigate current customer issues.

Dok · Oct 4, 2024

ANNML said:
I would tell him the Grenadier is the coolest car I’ve ever owned and will ever own.

I would ask how on earth the unbelievably annoying speed alarms made it past the decision making phase without any option to disable it. Did no one drive it orrrrrr …..??? Boggles the mind.

I would tell him he needs to hire a customer relations director, a service analyst or whatever — and get a clear picture of all of the unmet needs and service issues. Then prioritize, make a plan, and get on it. And while that process is underway, figure out a way to mitigate current customer issues.

Basic minimum (and enough) work... And with few thousands vehicle they don't need a super overrated crm software. An excel with less than 10 cols and a pivot table will do the job to track every single issue (but if they want to I'll be happy to develop them an app and the process/management going with!! It has been my job for years)

Dok · Oct 4, 2024

I will ask for a new user interface with bunch of messages not hiding important informations (at least it will give them time to fix them)
(see my dedicated post for more info)

Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 19-54-26 IG UI proposal by C.CORP.png

emax · Oct 5, 2024

Waaay too small fonts. In a bumpy car (or aircraft), they're hard to read and not everybody has eagle eyes.

Same for the buttons. I have my experiences with touchscreens in bumpy conditions. This one looks good, but in flight it's simply terrible as you will often hit the wrong "button", in particular in turbulences - but not only.

(and in flight this can cause real issues as you often don't simply know which button you accidentally pressed ...)

If you increase your fonts and buttons to a reasonable size, even for people with 70 year old eyes, your design will break.

Dok · Oct 5, 2024

emax said:
Waaay too small fonts. In a bumpy car (or aircraft), they're hard to read and not everybody has eagle eyes.

Same for the buttons. I have my experiences with touchscreens in bumpy conditions. This one looks good, but in flight it's simply terrible as you will often hit the wrong "button", in particular in turbulences - but not only.

(and in flight this can cause real issues as you often don't simply know which button you accidentally pressed ...)

View attachment 7872140

If you increase your fonts and buttons to a reasonable size, even for people with 70 year old eyes, your design will break.

You're right on the fonts... This idea was first : not hiding important informations with error messages and then a dashboard on the "1/3 screen" to be able to display trip meter or anything else on the "2/3 part"

Not pretending to have the final version... It is a work in progress... Since I didn't have much feedback, I stopped working on it.
Since I've done it as a web app, changing the font size or other stuff is a matter of seconds

Also in my todo: get a lighter car visual with less details

Thread for the UI https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/user-interface-improvement.12415870/

Dok · Oct 5, 2024

@emax here is a version with a bigger fonts:

https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/user-interface-improvement.12415870/page-3

the buttons are positioned at the bottom so that you can rest your hand on the plastic plate... But will work on a version with a bigger size!

Roadking01 · Oct 6, 2024

I would tell Sir Ratcliffe, “Thank you for being passionate enough about a car and lifestyle of use, that you created something out of space. Congrats”

Keep going

Dual Grenny Guy · Oct 11, 2024

I would say “Sir James Arthur Ratcliffe (I don’t know the protocol on how to address a “sir” so will just use his entire name in respect), I would like to meet you at the Grenadier pub in London and pay for the first round of drinks (I’m sure someone of such wealth is use to everyone else waiting for him to pay, so will turn the table for him) and discuss this most AMAZING vehicle you have created”!! I’m sure he has heard or read all the negative stuff, I want to just enjoy a pint and let him know how much some of us truly enjoy this vehicle & I truly believe in a couple of years this will be a lifestyle vehicle for many people.

Sir Ratcliffe, if by some random chance you read or see this, I am serious and even though I am in the USA, I am retired and have the time and means to indeed fly over there and make this come true. Yes I know it sounds outrageous, but hey other wilder things have occurred in this world!!

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