Leaking Safari Roof and Door Seals Flooding The Car And other Leaks and Problems

nodric · May 6, 2024

Zimm said:
Just to note, the amount of water flowing from the gutters should have no impact on the water in the foot well if the weatherstripping is sealing it. The gutters purpose is to stop water from dripping on your head when you get in and out of the car and it should be able to dump that water anywhere. It's not the problem. The issue is, the front weather stripping isn't sealing up tight, and the only reason I can think of right now, is the door hinges are set too far out causing the door to be offset in the front. Having chosen not to own one yet, I can't see how the hinges are attached, but that's typically not something that's adjustable. At least not in any car I've ever messed with. Threaded back plates or captive nuts or something is what I've seen.

I think we are making excuses for a crap design that stops the water being channeled away from the A pillars effectively. Yes, the seals should seal as that's sort of the point of a seal

but at the same time channelling gallons/liters of water into the door shut is not a genius design.

So if I understand you correctly you are saying it is ok and satisfactory for water to pour from the roof into the door shut (also known as the door jam) down the A pillar in copious quantities as long as the door seals seal effectively that should prevent it the water from collecting in the door sill between the seals?

While I might be willing to accept that it seems ludicrous to me that having water deluge into the door shut as acceptable when a simple roof gutter modification would stop that entirely. Irrespective, the door seals should work and clearly do not unless affixed correctly.

As I and another poster said, our old Defenders did not exhibit this issue, and my Toyota 4Runner does not either. No water is channeled into the door shut as the roof is designed to channel the water away more effectively.

It sounds like we are making excuses to give Ineos a pass.

dreamalaska · May 6, 2024

The sunroof, HVAC and front windshield are additional, separate issues, though occurring either alone or simultaneously in combination with each another for the unlucky few who’ve been hexed with them

nodric · May 6, 2024

dreamalaska said:
The sunroof, HVAC and front windshield are additional, separate issues, though occurring either alone or simultaneously in combination with each another for the unlucky few who’ve been hexed with them

As Meatloaf said "two out of three ain't bad". I have two of those and a different third.

Zimm · May 6, 2024

nodric said:
So if I understand you correctly you are saying it is ok and satisfactory for water to pour from the roof into the door shut (also known as the door jam) down the A pillar in copious quantities as long as the door seals seal effectively that should prevent it the water from collecting in the door sill between the seals?

I guess the answer to your question would be, "No you don't understand me correctly". Where in my statement is there approval of anything to do with the roof? Or disapproval for that matter? It's a simple statement that the gutter isn't the cause of the leak. It's not like increasing the volume increases the pressure as it's a vertical edge.

If you want to discuss the separate issue of where they are dumping the water, I can only guess. Possibly due to aerodynamics and NVH Styer chose not to continue the channel down the edge of the a pillar, like on my G. Either way, the tiny gutters on cars can't contain "deluge" level rain.

As a note, My 93 f250 dumps right at the top of the A without leaking, and my 83 fj60 has a rail down the a pillar, my 2002 LX 470 doesn't have one at all and seals like a modern car. It appears from my stock of trucks, that forward piece of drip rail disappeared in the evolution of aerodynamics without issue, and shouldn't be one here.

nodric · May 6, 2024

Zimm said:
I guess the answer to your question would be, "No you don't understand me correctly". Where in my statement is there approval of anything to do with the roof? Or disapproval for that matter? It's a simple statement that the gutter isn't the cause of the leak. It's not like increasing the volume increases the pressure as it's a vertical edge.

If you want to discuss the separate issue of where they are dumping the water, I can only guess. Possibly due to aerodynamics and NVH Styer chose not to continue the channel down the edge of the a pillar, like on my G. Either way, the tiny gutters on cars can't contain "deluge" level rain.

As a note, My 93 f250 dumps right at the top of the A without leaking, and my 83 fj60 has a rail down the a pillar, my 2002 LX 470 doesn't have one at all and seals like a modern car. It appears from my stock of trucks, that forward piece of drip rail disappeared in the evolution of aerodynamics without issue, and shouldn't be one here.

The gutter rubber trim design causes excessive water to enter the gap between the door and the A pillar. It causes water to collect in the gap between the door and the body of the car, the seals acting as a sealed container. My contention is that the excessive water pooling in the door void is causing ingress into the vehicle as it overwhelms the sealing at that point. When the seals are not sealing, as in the case of drooping, the water drains away.

If I removed the raid gutter trim this problem abates.

I am struggling to see why the gutter trim is not the root cause?

nodric · May 6, 2024

Update from the dealer this morning.

"Thanks for all the videos and information. I have sent all this to my Rep at INEOS USA. I am waiting for parts for your vehicle at the moment. I will wait for INEOS to instruct me on what to do with your vehicle."

Parts means new front outer door seals as they are both failed, and the broken electrical boxes on the roof broken by the techs when they moved the rack to repair the leaking sunroofs.

landmannnn · May 7, 2024

I think I am correct in assuming that this is the cause of the waterfall when opening the door along with an overspill into the footwell?

nodric · May 7, 2024

landmannnn said:
I think I am correct in assuming that this is the cause of the waterfall when opening the door along with an overspill into the footwell?View attachment 7856098

The cause of the waterfall seems to be (watch my videos in my posts) water spilling from the roof gutter into the door A pillar gap that then collects in the area between the inner and outer door seal. The gap in your failed door deal at that position enhances the flow of water into that area as it allows water to seep through where it should not. If the door seal is coming away along the bottom of the door the problem of waterfall goes away. That's the irony. If the seals have failed then the water can escape. If the seals are sealing (sort of the idea of them) then the water collects and ultimately spills into the footwell.

Note: The sunroof leaking issue is separate and also causes water under the floor covering in the footwells.

Your door seals need to be replaced. You will also see the design issue on the gutter trip at the windshield both sides. This is designed to stop whistling and to add some aerodynamics. It also has the unwanted side effect of channeling water into your door gap in the A pillar when the car is stationary and being rained on. This leads to the waterfall and water ingress into the footwell. The latter we have no fix for. My dealer has now sent my videos demonstrating this to Ineos and my car is at the dealer awaiting their advice as to what to do next.

Welcome to the world of leaking door seals on Ineos. It seems you have plenty of company.

dreamalaska · May 7, 2024

That’s the irony of the outer seal adhesive failure. The adhesive is designed to allow for minor corrections during install and QC, but obviuosly in the real world use the adhesive is failing. What’s really needed is a much more permanent adhesive along with 100% accurate seal placement during the build process, which isn’t practical on an assembly line. There are primers for permanent adhesives that allow time for movement of the part being applied, but after curing it’s not coming off, and if there’s any more adjustment needed during later QC then the whole seal would have to be torn off (probably in pieces), the area chemically cleaned thoroughly and a new seal reapplied, starting the whole process all over again.

Hopefully they’ll find a permanent solution to the problem. I’m think a larger surface area outer seal to allow for placement variables and better adhesive will be needed.

landmannnn · May 7, 2024

dreamalaska said:
That’s the irony of the outer seal adhesive failure. The adhesive is designed to allow for minor corrections during install and QC, but obviuosly in the real world use the adhesive is failing. What’s really needed is a much more permanent adhesive along with 100% accurate seal placement during the build process, which isn’t practical on an assembly line. There are primers for permanent adhesives that allow time for movement of the part being applied, but after curing it’s not coming off, and if there’s any more adjustment needed during later QC then the whole seal would have to be torn off (probably in pieces), the area chemically cleaned thoroughly and a new seal reapplied, starting the whole process all over again.

Hopefully they’ll find a permanent solution to the problem. I’m think a larger surface area outer seal to allow for placement variables and better adhesive will be needed.

On my gap from the photo, there is no evidence of any adhesive, possibly the seal was self adhesive,.but it doesn't feel like it.

dreamalaska · May 7, 2024

landmannnn said:
On my gap from the photo, there is no evidence of any adhesive, possibly the seal was self adhesive,.but it doesn't feel like it.

There’s a strip of clear adhesive on the back of the seal. When the seal pulls off, dust accumulates on the adhesive and renders it useless. It’s so thin that it’s difficult to see it was there in the first place, but the dust should be thicker on the seal where the adhesive is/was.

nodric · May 7, 2024

dreamalaska said:
That’s the irony of the outer seal adhesive failure. The adhesive is designed to allow for minor corrections during install and QC, but obviuosly in the real world use the adhesive is failing. What’s really needed is a much more permanent adhesive along with 100% accurate seal placement during the build process, which isn’t practical on an assembly line. There are primers for permanent adhesives that allow time for movement of the part being applied, but after curing it’s not coming off, and if there’s any more adjustment needed during later QC then the whole seal would have to be torn off (probably in pieces), the area chemically cleaned thoroughly and a new seal reapplied, starting the whole process all over again.

Hopefully they’ll find a permanent solution to the problem. I’m think a larger surface area outer seal to allow for placement variables and better adhesive will be needed.

Having worked previously for Toyota for 16 years I can confidently say they never have this issue and the seal is applied uniformly to every vehicle. A human aided machine/automatic process applies the seal to avoid that human error and placement irregularities. We can assume/presume that Ineos use a manual process more akin to Defender assembly.

dreamalaska · May 7, 2024

nodric said:
Having worked previously for Toyota for 16 years I can confidently say they never have this issue and the seal is applied uniformly to every vehicle. A human aided machine/automatic process applies the seal to avoid that human error and placement irregularities. We can assume/presume that Ineos use a manual process more akin to Defender assembly.

You’re absolutely correct, this isn’t rocket science, and begs the question of where the process is failing (and I’m always comparing the build to the old Defender). Maybe their (Ineos) process is correct for install and it’s the 3rd party vendor supplying the part whose adhesive is prematurely failing (most probable imo) after Ineos QC check

landmannnn · May 8, 2024

nodric said:
Having worked previously for Toyota for 16 years I can confidently say they never have this issue and the seal is applied uniformly to every vehicle. A human aided machine/automatic process applies the seal to avoid that human error and placement irregularities. We can assume/presume that Ineos use a manual process more akin to Defender assembly.

Interesting stuff. I've stuck rubber seals on things and found out that going round corners is tricky, stretch a little too far and the adhesive wont hold.
I can see why a semi robotic process would make sense.

Zimm · May 8, 2024

Say you don't have adhesive applied for 3-4 inches along the door weather stripping, that will make it lose when you open it. When you close it, it should still be pressed shut. The non adhesive side obviously seals when pressed against the metal or it wouldn't ever work, and so should the side that supposed to have adhesive. Its squished between the metal surfaces after all. No one is reporting the stripping just hanging out of the door. And it's not as if it's old stripping that has a crusty surface or lost its spring and squish. That much water is not merely capillary'ing thru. There must be an actual gap when the door is closed.

Zimm · May 8, 2024

nodric said:
I am struggling to see why the gutter trim is not the root cause?

Because the the trim and door gaps are designed to maintain a seal while wading. That's actual water pressure. What you're describing is the equivalent of nema 3r weatherproof where water does not enter the enclosure because it it redirected prior to reaching the access port. The seal on a car is the equivalent of nema 4x, where water does not enter the enclosure even if directed by a hose. By your standard, if the issue was the gutter flow, it would be acceptable for water to enter the car if directed by a hose or a car wash which will flow much more than the gutter. When was the last time you bought a car where it was acceptable to have water intrusion from a car wash? You haven't. And if a door is supposed to handle the directed flow of a hose, it can handle the gutter flow. You are technically right though, if we eliminate water we can't have leaks.

nodric · May 8, 2024

Zimm said:
Say you don't have adhesive applied for 3-4 inches along the door weather stripping, that will make it lose when you open it. When you close it, it should still be pressed shut. The non adhesive side obviously seals when pressed against the metal or it wouldn't ever work, and so should the side that supposed to have adhesive. Its squished between the metal surfaces after all. No one is reporting the stripping just hanging out of the door. And it's not as if it's old stripping that has a crusty surface or lost its spring and squish. That much water is not merely capillary'ing thru. There must be an actual gap when the door is closed.

The door seals droop (see photo) when they lose their adhesion along the bottom edge. I secured mine back with carpet tape and can confirm when it rains the water seeps out of that lower seal area leaving some grit and debris behind on the sill. From this and your later post about sealing it would seem that the tightness of the seal is not there allowing water to drain away. Maybe just due to the positioning of the seals with my carpet tape, or worse the gap between the door and the frame.

nodric · May 8, 2024

Zimm said:
Because the the trim and door gaps are designed to maintain a seal while wading. That's actual water pressure. What you're describing is the equivalent of nema 3r weatherproof where water does not enter the enclosure because it it redirected prior to reaching the access port. The seal on a car is the equivalent of nema 4x, where water does not enter the enclosure even if directed by a hose. By your standard, if the issue was the gutter flow, it would be acceptable for water to enter the car if directed by a hose or a car wash which will flow much more than the gutter. When was the last time you bought a car where it was acceptable to have water intrusion from a car wash? You haven't. And if a door is supposed to handle the directed flow of a hose, it can handle the gutter flow. You are technically right though, if we eliminate water we can't have leaks.

Yes, I get what you are saying, that water should be able to flow into that gap in the A pillar and not cause leaks. The challenge then is the water collects in the space between the door and door frame like a pool/bucket and sits there until you open the door and the water floods out of that gap. Anecdotally, and from testing, that water once it reaches a certain quality they is able to ingress into the car and into the footwell. The latter would suggest that the seals are allowing water into the car, and that may suggest the inner seal around the door frame is the issue, and not the seal on the actual door.

nodric · May 8, 2024

UPDATE MAY 8TH 2024

Ineos UK called me in response to the additional emails I had sent them and had a 30 minute call with me.

They are escalating internally and are going to liaise with the US regional manager, who is probably my dealer contact anyway, and will do all they can to get my vehicle fixed and to investigate the rubber trim issue I have identified, as well as the door seals and the A/C dripping issue.

They did tell me that the door seal issue is a well known problem and they are seeing a lot of claims on this. The flooding/deluge/gushing anomaly is something they will investigate further now I have raised this and made the videos I have.

I felt like they are concerned and taking this seriously, and I was pleased with the attention. I clearly stated I want the car repaired and serviceable as overall they have created a winner. But a leaking car and poor dealer service are not welcome, whether the dealer's fault or not. I told them I did not want Tesla quality.

Even if water does not leak into the vehicle as @Zimm and I are debating, having water retention of a gallon or two in the door sill is not a design feature that is acceptable. Simply diverting that water flow from the gutter prevents this. If you wash your car and deluge the door frame by spraying the hose into the same A pillar gap it should drain away and not collect and sit until you open the door. My Toyota and no other car I have owned in recent memory does this. My Toyota has roof channels that flow the water down the side of the windshield.

In fact even if the water gets into the A pillar gap it should not get between the seals, which is what is happening, and where the water is being trapped.

@Zimm

Wading in deep water might cause issues, but then we do expect some consequences of driving through rivers anyway. I'd still expect the water to drain away however and not be held like a bucket.

Toyota photos attached for reference.

Mossy Ineos Grenadier TX · May 8, 2024

nodric said:
@Mossy Ineos Grenadier TX Have you found a solution for these issues? My dealer is in their figuring it out phase.

Hi @nodric - I'm currently reading all the comments in this thread, so apologies for my delayed response! I've also noticed water buildup at the front door of my own Grenadier following heavy rain. I haven’t tackled this issue yet, but now seems like the perfect time to do so. I'm committed to finding a solution since this affects me directly as well! I'll discuss this with my team and share any useful information I can gather. Thanks.

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