Leaking Safari Roof and Door Seals Flooding The Car And other Leaks and Problems

Zimm · May 5, 2024

Yep. I'd say the door seal ought to be able to handle that water, but the gasket isn't thick enough to fill the gap.

Until a fix comes out I would...

redirect the water by calking the hole.

get some aftermarket door gasket material and run it along the truck side of the door the top and front, that way the water would need to squeak thru between them and it would lose it's easy path along the a pillar metal. I imagine that would cut the flow and path enough to prevent interior damage, which is the goal.

Ineos need's to either use thicker gasket material or maybe they have a hinge alignment issue at the front, and the door sticks out more than intended... which will not likely be "fixable" at it's root if that's the case, leaving only thicker gaskets as the solution.

I think a few people have commented on wind noise around the windshield at high speeds. If that gasket isn't sealing up, that may be the cause of that also.

Karearea · May 5, 2024

nodric said:
Last night (May 4th 2024) we had heavy rains again in North Texas, and the video linked to this post will show the update. This is a brand new loan vehicle (1800 miles) while they have mine. A 2024 Field Master.

This is definitely a design/engineering issue with the door seals. When the seals are intact the water collects in the sills as the seals form a prefect "seal" and as the volume of water increases it is spilling into the foot well. It seems to leak under the kick trim and pools in the footwell under the floor covering. When the outer door seal is not intact and faulty due to lack of adhesion the problems does not occur. This is because the water has an escape path.

This is a definite design flaw and I have no idea how they are going to correct this bar cutting a slice out of the door seal to allow water to drain with the unintended consequence of allowing water to ingress when wading in your overland vehicle Of course they might look into how to avoid water getting into the void in the door shut, but that would probably be a major redesign.

In Texas the Lemon Law gives the dealer 2 chances to fix the same problem, or if the car is gone 30 days or more. Lawyers charge no win no fee as the dealer has to pay the legal costs if the claim is upheld, as well as buy back the car and cover all the buyers losses. This is round 2 of their attempt to fix the door seals. I really do not see how this will be resolved without an Ineos engineering fix.

FYI Sir Jim never responded to the Twitter post I tagged him in with a link to this forum.

Here is the latest video - click me.

That is a GREAT video.
My question though is where is the water originating?
I’m still investigating

Karearea · May 5, 2024

nodric said:
And as final proof of the design issue I gift you this.

Click me for the video.

Now where do I send my invoice to Ineos for the engineer root cause analysis? How did no one work this out yet?

If the doors seals are correctly fitted, and this gutter drainage problem solved, the car will not leak! The sunroof issue may be real but is a red herring in this fault finding.

Hey Nodric
This was my first thought on water origination too! A pillars as no issues in rear door seals.
Some pics attached of the inside upper door front edge.
And when I parked “nose down” with heavy rain, no water ingress at all either side

Catpaw4x4 · May 5, 2024

nodric said:
And as final proof of the design issue I gift you this.

Click me for the video.

Now where do I send my invoice to Ineos for the engineer root cause analysis? How did no one work this out yet?

If the doors seals are correctly fitted, and this gutter drainage problem solved, the car will not leak! The sunroof issue may be real but is a red herring in this fault finding.

So the problem is the screw hole to attach the gutter rubber expansion piece? The problem is the rubber expansion piece doesn't make a waterleak proof seal contact with the edge of the vehicle? Why is the problem only on one side - for some it's the passenger side. For others it is the driver's side. The hole / rubber piece is on both sides. This discussion is "just where is the water sourcing from" ? Not solving "how is it getting into the vehicle"?
Thanks.

nodric · May 5, 2024

Catpaw4x4 said:
So the problem is the screw hole to attach the gutter rubber expansion piece? The problem is the rubber expansion piece doesn't make a waterleak proof seal contact with the edge of the vehicle? Why is the problem only on one side - for some it's the passenger side. For others it is the driver's side. The hole / rubber piece is on both sides. This discussion is "just where is the water sourcing from" ? Not solving "how is it getting into the vehicle"?
Thanks.

I thought that too about the screw hole but if you watch the video, and of course just try it on your own car, you will see that it is not coming through that hole. The water backs up and spills over. I can test that by plugging the hole and refitting the rubber piece, but my testing showed the hole not to be the cause.

As to why some people have it one side or the other there is one clear reason and another more specific to the specifics of where you are parked etc.

Firstly, if the door seals (the ones that droop) are not perfectly sealed along the bottom of the door, then the water leaks/soaks away as the seals do not hold it back as it pools in the sill area. If the seals are secure then the water pools and sits until the door is opened, and it also spills into the car as the levels rise by seeping under the plastic kick trim and into the footwell.

The other reason, assuming both seals are intact and working as designed, is it can depend on the angle of the car, the side which is getting rained on more, and how much water is flowing down the gutter on that side of the vehicle. On my own vehicle the passenger side seal was working along the bottom of the door and that's where water pooled. On the drivers side the same issue was happening but the seal was allowing the water to drain away.

The water is sourcing from the rain falling on the roof and running down the gutter and spilling over the rubber trim into the A pillar gap. I simulated that with my hose. Water getting into the vehicle is important unless you don't mind having water in the footwells.

The additional, and confirmed by Ineos, defect for those of us with sunroofs is defective seals causing water to get into the roof lining and run down the inside of the A pillar into the footwell. I have had the issues I demonstrated occur on a car without the sunroofs as have others in this thread. My dealer states my sunroof seals have been fixed but I got a repeat of the door puddling. The rest I have explained in detail in this thread.

Ergo, it is a design issue with the rubber trim causing water to ingress in the A pillar gap and pool in the sill. This gets into the car. Having defective doors seals prevents the water getting into the car, but of course this is not acceptable irrespective.

nodric · May 5, 2024

Karearea said:
Hey Nodric
This was my first thought on water origination too! A pillars as no issues in rear door seals.
Some pics attached of the inside upper door front edge.
And when I parked “nose down” with heavy rain, no water ingress at all either side

Nose down maybe caused enough flow pressure to spill over the rubber trim, maybe. Try parking on the flat and run water onto the roof gutters like I did in the video and observe if water is spilling into the A pillar gap. If your door seals are intact and you run the water for a few minutes you should get a deluge when you open the door as water will have pooled in the sill area. If the water does not pull ensure the door seals lower down are firmly attached.

On all my test mules, my car and so far two different loaners, all the doors seals have had gaps, and some half up the front of the door creating a gap that water can get through. So as water runs down the A pillar it can seep through those gaps and help exacerbate the pooling in the sill.

nodric · May 5, 2024

Zimm said:
Yep. I'd say the door seal ought to be able to handle that water, but the gasket isn't thick enough to fill the gap.

Until a fix comes out I would...

redirect the water by calking the hole.

get some aftermarket door gasket material and run it along the truck side of the door the top and front, that way the water would need to squeak thru between them and it would lose it's easy path along the a pillar metal. I imagine that would cut the flow and path enough to prevent interior damage, which is the goal.

Ineos need's to either use thicker gasket material or maybe they have a hinge alignment issue at the front, and the door sticks out more than intended... which will not likely be "fixable" at it's root if that's the case, leaving only thicker gaskets as the solution.

I think a few people have commented on wind noise around the windshield at high speeds. If that gasket isn't sealing up, that may be the cause of that also.

I think if they redesign that rubber trim it would divert water away from the A pillar and also may cut down some whistling, although on my car that is the roof rack. The loaners don't whistle. Be thankful for small mercies I guess.

Catpaw4x4 · May 5, 2024

nodric said:
I thought that too about the screw hole but if you watch the video, and of course just try it on your own car, you will see that it is not coming through that hole. The water backs up and spills over. I can test that by plugging the hole and refitting the rubber piece, but my testing showed the hole not to be the cause.

As to why some people have it one side or the other there is one clear reason and another more specific to the specifics of where you are parked etc.

Firstly, if the door seals (the ones that droop) are not perfectly sealed along the bottom of the door, then the water leaks/soaks away as the seals do not hold it back as it pools in the sill area. If the seals are secure then the water pools and sits until the door is opened, and it also spills into the car as the levels rise by seeping under the plastic kick trim and into the footwell.

The other reason, assuming both seals are intact and working as designed, is it can depend on the angle of the car, the side which is getting rained on more, and how much water is flowing down the gutter on that side of the vehicle. On my own vehicle the passenger side seal was working along the bottom of the door and that's where water pooled. On the drivers side the same issue was happening but the seal was allowing the water to drain away.

The water is sourcing from the rain falling on the roof and running down the gutter and spilling over the rubber trim into the A pillar gap. I simulated that with my hose. Water getting into the vehicle is important unless you don't mind having water in the footwells.

The additional, and confirmed by Ineos, defect for those of us with sunroofs is defective seals causing water to get into the roof lining and run down the inside of the A pillar into the footwell. I have had the issues I demonstrated occur on a car without the sunroofs as have others in this thread. My dealer states my sunroof seals have been fixed but I got a repeat of the door puddling. The rest I have explained in detail in this thread.

Ergo, it is a design issue with the rubber trim causing water to ingress in the A pillar gap and pool in the sill. This gets into the car. Having defective doors seals prevents the water getting into the car, but of course this is not acceptable irrespective.

Thank you for the more detailed explanation and your personal experience. Only my passenger side has had an occasional issue. Vehicle is always parked on a horizontal flat surface. Cheers!

Catpaw4x4 · May 5, 2024

nodric said:
I think if they redesign that rubber trim it would divert water away from the A pillar and also may cut down some whistling, although on my car that is the roof rack. The loaners don't whistle. Be thankful for small mercies I guess.

Interesting is that my 96 Discovery has very similar (key word similar) gutters. Difference is there is an opening at the end that puts water out onto the windowshield.
I don't have a photo (naturally she has been getting some touchups and is in the shop - due to be picked up later this month/early June with my schedule). Will gladly get a photo and post as soon as I can but perhaps there is another Discovery owner who can do sooner!
Cheers, Donna
PS - I have safari windows on the Discovery. 28 yrs old. Original pieces

oops: Oh my word at 28 yrs - one of the remaining few

) Those seals still working well. Seems like Ineos cut some corners on seals/glue/ adhesive/ etc

grnamin · May 5, 2024

This has happened twice so far... After a storm, I opened the 70% rear door and water streamed from the top of the glass. Trying to figure out where it's coming from. The rubber bung at the top edge of the door is firmly in place.

nodric · May 5, 2024

To give more insights for some of the excellent commenters on this thread. Attached are some photos of the loaner I have. The gutters when the car is parked level lean forward. This is as expected so the water has a direction to flow when it rains. I have taken some photos and the spirit level demonstrates this. I also was able to level the level by placing one end on the rubber trim. You will see what I mean from the photos. This is why the rear doors do not have this issue as the water flows to the front of the car.

I also did some more video and experiments to reinforce my findings. I think this will help more people grasp the issue. It's a longer watch but I wanted to try and answer peoples thoughts and also make sure my root cause analysis is sound. (I worked at Toyota for 16 years).

Click here for the latest video.

Some of my photos don't show a thumbnail so just click on them. Seems to be HEIC format conversion having issues.

nodric · May 5, 2024

grnamin said:
This has happened twice so far... After a storm, I opened the 70% rear door and water streamed from the top of the glass. Trying to figure out where it's coming from. The rubber bung at the top edge of the door is firmly in place.
View attachment 7855869
View attachment 7855870

So I noted in an earlier post that the door seal where the catch meets the body (between the two doors) the seal is becoming compressed and on my gooey or tacky. The previous loaner had it much worse. Dealer just went huh and shrugged their shoulders. It is accompanied by black gunge on door where it meets the car latch so have a look there for black goo. I determined the coating on the main seal attached to the car is coming away. Depending on how bad that rear seal is could be a place to start investigating.

grnamin · May 5, 2024

Thank you, @nodric. Good ideas on where to start investigating.

Catpaw4x4 · May 5, 2024

nodric said:
To give more insights for some of the excellent commenters on this thread. Attached are some photos of the loaner I have. The gutters when the car is parked level lean forward. This is as expected so the water has a direction to flow when it rains. I have taken some photos and the spirit level demonstrates this. I also was able to level the level by placing one end on the rubber trim. You will see what I mean from the photos. This is why the rear doors do not have this issue as the water flows to the front of the car.

I also did some more video and experiments to reinforce my findings. I think this will help more people grasp the issue. It's a longer watch but I wanted to try and answer peoples thoughts and also make sure my root cause analysis is sound. (I worked at Toyota for 16 years).

Click here for the latest video.

Please note it's 6 minutes long so YouTube will take ~90 mins after this post goes live to process the HD and 4K versions, so if the quality is low try again after a bit of time.

Some of my photos don't show a thumbnail so just click on them. Seems to be HEIC format conversion having issues.

So after parking level and beginning the back out of drive, rear goes down, and as front is essentially level, water streams down the driver's side of windshield. Has never done this on the passenger side. Front looking down on the vehicle when parked, there may be the slightest of dips on the passenger roof after the safari window. Let's call this the "windshield wash option". Any others configured this option in your ordering??
Cheers

nodric · May 5, 2024

I went and did some still images from Adobe Premiere so you can maybe spot something I am missing.

This also shows that the forum does not convert HEIC image files very well. These were exported as jpegs and no problems. Damned iPhone tricks.

As you can see the water pools behind the rubber trim. It does nothing to facilitate the gutter draining, and it just spills like a dam wall into the A pillar channel.

Karearea · May 6, 2024

Totally agree @nodric - draining from gutter down A pillar. I'm going to remove those rubber end stops and see what can be done to address the issue!
Cheers

nodric · May 6, 2024

Karearea said:
Totally agree @nodric - draining from gutter down A pillar. I'm going to remove those rubber end stops and see what can be done to address the issue!
Cheers

As soon as the dealer and/or Ineos responds I'll update the thread. Let me know how your experimentation goes.

Zimm · May 6, 2024

Just to note, the amount of water flowing from the gutters should have no impact on the water in the foot well if the weatherstripping is sealing it. The gutters purpose is to stop water from dripping on your head when you get in and out of the car and it should be able to dump that water anywhere. It's not the problem. The issue is, the front weather stripping isn't sealing up tight, and the only reason I can think of right now, is the door hinges are set too far out causing the door to be offset in the front. Having chosen not to own one yet, I can't see how the hinges are attached, but that's typically not something that's adjustable. At least not in any car I've ever messed with. Threaded back plates or captive nuts or something is what I've seen.

anand · May 6, 2024

Generally the waterfall is due to the door seal having a gap in it somewhere letting water in between the two seals... The door sid eseals should also have two small holes cut in them to allow anything *in* the outer seal to drain out.

I had a very slight waterfall on the front edge of the driver's door and found about a 2-3" section of the door seal (on the vertical part of the front edge of the door) to not be sealed. I cleaned the area, hit it with a bit of 3M adhesion promoter, and haven't seen an issue yet and we have been having nothing but rain for over 2 days

nodric · May 6, 2024

anand said:
Generally the waterfall is due to the door seal having a gap in it somewhere letting water in between the two seals... The door sid eseals should also have two small holes cut in them to allow anything *in* the outer seal to drain out.

I had a very slight waterfall on the front edge of the driver's door and found about a 2-3" section of the door seal (on the vertical part of the front edge of the door) to not be sealed. I cleaned the area, hit it with a bit of 3M adhesion promoter, and haven't seen an issue yet and we have been having nothing but rain for over 2 days

As I just replied to @Zimm I think we are finding excuses to give Ineos a pass for crap design. While I agree with you that if the seals seal and we cut a drain in them (which should've been designed in to begin with) having gallons/liters of water channelled into the doors shuts is not good design or appropriate.

If no water was channelled into the door shuts then no water would collect in the sills, irrespective of the seals effectiveness. Why is it sensible to flood the door shuts with water?

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