Americas So how's your Grenadier Really and what could make it better (elevator pitch time)

So I was thinking the other day, if I stepped into an elevator by chance with Greg, Lynn and Sir Jim what would I say about the Grenadier rollout for NA.

(back in the real world theres a good chance that we can get a document in front of the people that make the decisions)


Elevator pitch time so keep it concise.

The good bits (feel free to offer suggestions to improve things)

• Positive aspects of the vehicle and why you chose the Grenadier.
• Positive aspects of the process of how things are done at IA.
• The information that was delivered which was most helpful or valuable.
• The best dealer practices and examples of dealers going that bit further in delivering your Grenadier.

The bad bits (feel free to give suggestions of improvements)

• Product issues with the Grenadier.
• Process issues with how things are handled by IA
• The information that was/is lacking.
• Dealer issues

So don't pull your punches and be honest with your experiences as Grenadier owners.

Stu_Barnes said:

So I was thinking the other day, if I stepped into an elevator by chance with Greg, Liz and Sir Jim what would I say about the Grenadier rollout for NA.

(back in the real world theres a good chance that we can get a document in front of the people that make the decisions)


Elevator pitch time so keep it concise.

The good bits (feel free to offer suggestions to improve things)

• Positive aspects of the vehicle and why you chose the Grenadier.
• Positive aspects of the process of how things are done at IA.
• The information that was delivered which was most helpful or valuable.
• The best dealer practices and examples of dealers going that bit further in delivering your Grenadier.

The bad bits (feel free to give suggestions of improvements)

• Product issues with the Grenadier.
• Process issues with how things are handled by IA
• The information that was/is lacking.
• Dealer issues

So don't pull your punches and be honest with your experiences.

Click to expand...

Great idea. But I would suggest leaving this for actual owners. I would love to comment but it seems like BS because I don’t actually own (esp having not driven the vehicle much) one. I have not truly experienced thing for myself. I have low expectations of the ADAS but I’ve never actually dealt with it.

Just a suggestion. I could be off the mark here.

Krabby said:

Great idea. But I would suggest leaving this for actual owners. I would love to comment but it seems like BS because I don’t actually own (esp having not driven the vehicle much) one. I have not truly experienced thing for myself. I have low expectations of the ADAS but I’ve never actually dealt with it.
Just a suggestion. I could be off the mark here.

Click to expand...

You can say that about almost every post. I love hearing from owners and getting their tips and tricks, not just someone's opinion.

I will love to see other owner's opinions. I tend to be a "glass-half-empty" guy, so it's too easy for me to fixate on the negative. I love the concept and philosophy behind the Grenadier, but there are many (little) things about it that make me slap my forehead and say "What were they thinking?" I will have to start a list.

Positive aspects of the vehicle and why you chose the Grenadier.

Was the answer to my frustration at the decision by JLR to stop making Defenders. A vehicle with character, quirkiness and a story that I enjoy. I look forward daily to driving it. Can't ask for more.

Positive aspects of the process of how things are done at IA.

All staff I have interacted with are enthusiastic and seem to share my passion for their product. The purchasing process was smooth and easy.

The information that was delivered which was most helpful or valuable.

Configurator works well, I enjoyed the virtual movie I was sent depicting my build - especially as a buyer who had never seen one for real!

The best dealer practices and examples of dealers going that bit further in delivering your Grenadier.

Sandicliffe Nottingham have been helpful, friendly and welcoming and open to chat/share some frustrations but help when they can - very impressed.



Product issues with the Grenadier.

Initial S/W frustrations now gone but were a worry initially. Radio still very poor interface but works just adequately.

Process issues with how things are handled by IA

Website still say mine is in production which is now a source of amusement having had mine for over 6 months. Customer service has zero technical knowledge of the vehicle. Poor advice on simple questions (type of oil, can I fit a CTEK 250 etc...) - always given wrong information. I don't bother with them now.

The information that was/is lacking.

A user service/repair manual, to include wiring diagram is a MUST HAVE and was promised from the beginning. That would calm my long term concern re self-maintenance and parts etc. This is BY FAR my greatest concern at present and needs to be sorted quickly.

Dealer issues and a story.

No negative experience but I get the impression they also share some frustration when trying to source information from IA.

Took delivery Dec. 26, 2023 from Warner Ineos in Utah.

Issues, in no particular order:

PDC alarm goes off from the moment reverse is engaged, always front right, often rear left, as if something is in the closest position on the sensor map. I just turn it off, but it would be nice to have it working 100% correctly all the time. The service tech at time of delivery said it might have been due to my winch shackle or front euro license plate. Will ask about it officially at my first service or tow package update.

The ADAS warning is a real thing, but it doesn't bother me that much. It's part of my routine: turn on key, climb in, foot on brake, start engine, auto start stop off, ADAS speed warning off, PDC off, waze destination, music, drive.

Steering gets a bit twitchy at 80+mph, ex: when passing a semi on the interstate. I've found I start really trying to steer and begin to over correct, so I just relax my grip and it settles down.

My 84 year-old dad has a hard time getting in, particularly in the rear seats where there is no hand grip. He can't reach the ceiling mounted handle. There should be one on the rear of the B-pillar both sides.

The radio / Sirius XM interface is a bit cumbersome, having to swipe through the channels. If there is a way to sort by genre, I haven't found it. I figured out how to save favorites so not as big an issue now.

The positives:

Feels solid, built like a tank. Very impressed with quality and I think it's a good indicator that the Grenadier will last a lifetime. Feels like it will drive anywhere. During a Hard Way Home event put on by Warner Ineos, I had the opportunity to use 4L, triple locked, and the Grenadier performed better than I expected.

Not a sportscar, but engine power moves the weight well and it's more than adequate. The transmission is very smooth, as is the engine. The exhaust note is grunt-y without being obnoxious.

The interior is very well done. The seats are very comfortable, even over multiple day drives.

Love the way that the Q&A videos were done to address concerns and keep reservation holders informed, but would have liked more/ more frequent information.

Dealer best practices:

While we couldn't have scheduled a Hard Way Home delivery, due to time constraints, I was able to attend a Hard Way Home driver training event that Warner Ineos put on and must say they did an excellent job. They had a 2-day course that allowed us to use the various features of the Grenadier: locked center diff, hill descent control, 2L hill climbing, how to use recovery boards, airing tires down and back up and safe winching practices, in some of the most beautiful desert I've seen, SW Utah.

Also received my VIN and build month from Warner which helped estimate port arrival and delivery dates.

Concerns:
Big question about servicing, manuals. Nearest dealer is in San Diego, 6-7 hours away. I understand there is a plan to have a service center in Phoenix, still 2 hours away, but better. Online manuals would help greatly.

Jim: What do you think about the Grenadier?
Me: I really like the vehicle but there is too much 'friction' for me to love it as a utilitarian vehicle like my '97 Defender.
Them: What do you mean by 'friction?'
Me: I want to get in and go but I have to manually adjust he seat position from the previous driver (sometimes), try multiple times to get the cheap key in the ignition, turn off Auto Start / Stop, and turn off parts of ADAS EVERY SINGLE TIME I START THE VEHICLE!
Jim: Are you the guy that started the ADAS thread with 15K views and invented the Favorites Hack?
Me: Yes.
Jim: Liz, take this guy back down to the lobby and have security remove him from the building.
Liz: Jim. this isn't our building.
Jim: Doesn't matter, I want him OUT!

"invented the favorites hack"

I think that, should I bump into Sir Jim, I would definitely thank him. He filled my need for a Defender - albeit in all but name - that takes the next step forward, improving on the last ‘Puma’ Defenders. Good solid engineering. In a vehicle with the soul of a British classless vehicle (there are not many cars that can be used off-road in the mountains and forests , but equally would pass, without a raised eyebrow, at the finest hotels and country houses.) Maybe this is a peculiarly British viewpoint.

Yes. There are teething issues. But my local Ineos Service partner has responded extremely positively. I say local, it’s 2 hours on a ferry and a 3:15hr drive Thats island life! Just two service partners in Scotland. Surely a new concept vehicle, from a new company to mass vehicle manufacturing, must surely have teething issues. It’s how these issues are dealt with that is the key.

Customer service. How will they deal with these issues. I have no negative experiences yet.

So, yes, I would thank Sir Jim. He’s achieved that which other makers have failed to achieve. As a retired person, with finite resources, I bought my ‘last car’ in 2018 (Volvo XC90 Inscription - fully loaded with extras beyond belief). Sir Jim dragged my bank balance out of retirement………

so what don’t I like? As far as the vehicle is concerned, driving it brings a big smile to my face. Mmmmm.…. So. maybe the Grenadier owners who actively seem to seek to find things to moan about bug me . Those who ’get it’ are not the moaners.

What could make it better? 2 chicks at the same time.

1) turning radius, is there a legitimate reason why it’s so large?
2) HVAC, why is there no increment between “low” and 66*?
3) key/ignition illumination
4) blind spot indicators
5) square up the sloped areas over the rear wheel wells in the cargo area

If you ever meet Jim in an elevater, make sure you DO NOT CARRY A CUP OF COFFEE in his beloved elevator and that you at least CROSS TWO floor levels.

Carrying full coffee cups over the floors and in the elevator is forbidden in Hans-Crescent and you have to take the stairs if you cross only one floor to train your cardiovascular system.

Greetings from Hans-Crescent and its elevstors



AWo

• Positive aspects of the vehicle and why you chose the Grenadier.
• Positive aspects of the process of how things are done at IA.
• The information that was delivered which was most helpful or valuable.
• The best dealer practices and examples of dealers going that bit further in delivering your Grenadier.
• Product issues with the Grenadier.
• Process issues with how things are handled by IA
• The information that was/is lacking.
• Dealer issues

The Vehicle is brilliant. I watched it grow and researched the man behind the brand and believed he was more than capable of turning this around. I fell in love with the processes, the engineering, the sourcing, and the quality of the products involved in building this vehicle, top shelf.

I think the process of how things are done at IA is new and inventive but also uses history and proven companies to deliver.

The information that I received was How, When, and Why through the build process videos, all of which kept me searching for more like a kid in a toy shop. It was invaluable to me, now I own my Grenadier.

I have an Agent who has bent over backward to source and right issues from the start.

The Grenadier is a product that was on the drawing board 2016/17 roughly six years ago and I have had a dozen or so new cars but only ever one from a brand new name in the automotive industry. I expected product issues just like any other manufacturer would they are teething issues and whether big or small they will be sorted, understanding is the cure for anxiety, and a bloody good warranty helps also.

I must admit that the process of purchasing and then payment were seamless but that is the only contact except for the odd call or email to them with changes to the contract. My agent is now my connection to Ineos, and with all of my other cars I have never spoken to the manufacturer.

The Ineos Grenadier website was a daily hit for me and just logging on was always getting or seemed to be getting closer to the day...my car is still in production apparently, so I haven't been there for a while, a little amateurish.

The Noosa people here on the Sunshine Coast are doing well, thank you Sir Jim

I'd say Saul Goodman

Regalz said:

1) turning radius, is there a legitimate reason why it’s so large?

Click to expand...

The main reason the turning radius is larger than that of a similarly built vehicle (e.g. other solid axle vehicles like the Jeep Wrangler) is the decision to go with king pins as opposed to ball joints in the front end.

While king pin set-ups are generally understood to be stronger than ball joints set-ups

1. They are well-known to have a wider turning radius (all other things being equal)
2. They tend to have more play in the steering
3. They do not articulate as well

Note: the table below is a pretty good summary, though I wouldn't say it is 100% accurate. In particular:

(1) King pin set-ups are strong and durable - no doubt. But there are a lot of heavy duty axles with ball joints that hold up to heavy use with absolutely no problems. Dynatrac, and Carli, and some other manufacturers make ball joints for Dana 60 axles (or the like) that are super strong. A Dana 60 axle with upgraded ball joints from Dynatrac or Carli can provide similar practical strength to a king pin set-up in the same size axle, with a smaller turning circle, potentially less play in the steering, and potentially better axle articulation. But Dana 60s are big and heavy. The Carraro axles are lighter-duty than a Dana 60, and in axles of this size, there are probably significant strength gains from a king pin set-up when compared to a ball joint.

(2) In axles of similar size, a king-pin set-up will have slightly weaker knuckles than those in a ball-joint set-up, since the king pin takes away from some of the mass of the knuckles. In a smaller axle, this could be relevant, but in a beefier axle the knuckles - even with king pins - will be very strong.


Source: https://automotivesimple.com/king-pin-vs-ball-joint/

Here's my two cents...and you did ask for it.

THE GOOD:

Absolutely love the looks of the vehicle.

Love the history and philosophy of the vehicle.

Love the rapidly developing aftermarket

Love hearing from worldwide owners on this forum

Love the BMW B58 and ZF 8-speed. Fantastic

Fun to drive. Comfortable and relatively quiet -some gear whine

Mossy Grenadier. I am pleased with the dealer so far (Sorry, there is just no way you can love a car dealer). I think they are really trying, and working through their own issues with Ineos.


THE OTHER STUFF: (No particular order)

ADAS -- Love the concept; hate the execution. Should have blind spot warning. Over speed warning -should have permanent off option. "FAV" fix works OK.

Aux battery. Ineos doesn’t want you messing with their electrical system, I get it, but they made it a pain to connect accessory circuits to the aux battery.

Driver-side grab bar. Desperately needs a driver grab bar. Hard for anyone to get into the vehicle and I’m use to jumping into a lifted Jeep. Is it an airbag issue?

Back up camera screen placement on center display. Horrible placement on the far side of the center screen means you almost never can use it. There is always outside glare obscuring the view and finger prints on the screen don’t help.

Radio channel information hard to see. You cannot see the title and artist using SAT radio mode. Small, light-grey font on black background. Is there even a to enter a direct channel number, or do you just scroll through all channels?

White-wall tire side out. Hate it. Who has the white side walls showing in this day and time?

Cup holders too small. “What were they thinking?”

Key hole difficult to find and needs a light.

Low roof line. Hard to see stop lights. I think in the UK all the stop lights are eye level. If you are the first vehicle at the intersection, you can’t see the overhead lights.

Too many repeated warning sounds…just one would work with the telltale lit.

No detailed explanation of infotainment menu options. Trial and error and this forum is how I’m doing it.

No on-line OEM parts yet. This must change!

No service manual. This must change!

No aftermarket scan tool option yet. This must change! They promised Right-to-Repair.

Telltale headlight symbol too bright for the eyes at night

Panic button not recessed enough. Am I the only one who sets off the alarm with the key in my pocket?

Neutral not really neutral. Defaults to park. Can’t roll the vehicle in neutral without risking transmission damage. Manual tells you to go under the vehicle and release the transfer case if you want to move the vehicle in neutral for even short distances…like onto a roll-back tow truck. Did you know there is a special procedure if you want to run your truck through a carwash in neutral??

High tire pressure warning. On the freeway; 69 degree day; one tire went over temp and I heard the repeated alarm all the way home. Should be more adjustable. What happens when I drive in 100-degree temps with the tarmac at 200 degrees?

Lower transfer case gearing would be nice. Four-to-one like a Rubicon would have been nice.

The WINCH. If you actually need a winch, it should be functional at all times. Ineos decided they know better. You need to go through a process to use it and it won’t work if you are in park or the engine is not running. What if you roll the vehicle and the engine is not running? Nothing…you are out of luck. Plus, if you aren’t in Drive, you will probably destroy you transmission during the pull. You can always go under the vehicle and release the transfer case, assuming you aren’t in a river or in deep mud.

Could the small split door be just 4 inches wider? It would make it so much more functional.

Lars said:

White-wall tire side out. Hate it. Who has the white side walls showing in this day and time?

The WINCH. If you actually need a winch, it should be functional at all times. Ineos decided they know better. You need to go through a process to use it and it won’t work if you are in park or the engine is not running. What if you roll the vehicle and the engine is not running? Nothing…you are out of luck. Plus, if you aren’t in Drive, you will probably destroy you transmission during the pull. You can always go under the vehicle and release the transfer case, assuming you aren’t in a river or in deep mud.

Could the small split door be just 4 inches wider? It would make it so much more functional.

Click to expand...

Hi Lars,

Like you, I am also a fan of the Grenadier, but I also agree with a lot of your criticisms. I'm just going to reply to the three that I pasted in above.

1 - The tires are not directional, so you can swap the tires pretty easily so the white-wall is on the inside. I bet your dealer would have done that for you free of charge when you picked up the vehicle. They still might, and if not now, certainly at your first oil change.

2 - While you point out some important stuff here, the reason that the winch won't work in Park is to protect the parking pawl, which can get damaged if you winch while in Park. I think the broader issue is the funky BMW gear selector and its programming. I think one can make an objective argument (i.e. not just an opinion) that the gear selector is not appropriate for a 4x4.

3 - The small door does seem a little too small, but if it were bigger, they would need to swap which door opens first. Otherwise, the spare would not fit on a smaller "large" door. As it is, you can only carry a 33-inch spare (maybe a touch bigger) in the stock location. I think they wanted an easy-access door, and maybe they thought that opening a door with a spare on it was not "easy access". If it were my choice, I'd prefer either (1) a single barn door (no limit to spare tire size), or (2) two doors of equal size, but with the door holding the spare opening first (again, no limit to spare size).

Tazzieman said:

I'd say Saul Goodman

Click to expand...

What was the question?

I find that I have poor rear view vision out of my rear view mirror. Also, I wish auto start was an option. My other complaints have been bought up by other members so I'll spare the ink.. we bought into a New company, first generation production vehicle. We are like guinea pigs and someone in HQ product development team will read all these threads and hopefully make some changes and improvements. Overall,I've owned it for a week and I love it.

I'll never have an opportunity to rub shoulders with anyone that has a Sir or Dame before their name, but I have been privy to some astounding elevator pitches in my day. Here goes...

Positive: "Thanks for making such a simple unpretentious vehicle. Really. Thank you."

Negative: "I wish it was simpler still."

Suggestion: "Please don't turn it into a f✷cking luxury SUV or I'll never buy another. The roadways are already full of those."

Parting comment while exiting the car and stepping out of range: "Here's my number in case you want me to correct some of the design flaws."