Americas So how's your Grenadier Really and what could make it better (elevator pitch time)

[nuclearbeef]

Keep in mind, that's not serious off roading or with larger tires. For such small tires its really a decent crawl ratio. But when you get into the steep, rocky stuff and larger tires it will not be great.

What is "serious" off-roading? To some it may be different.
Around here (Memphis) the nearest rock is buried under about 3000 ft of clay, mud and sand.
4:1 ratio is worthless in the mud. Most times, any low range is inferior to high range for my prevailing conditions.

 

[Roving.Grenadier]

Jim: What do you think about the Grenadier?
Me: I really like the vehicle but there is too much 'friction' for me to love it as a utilitarian vehicle like my '97 Defender.
Them: What do you mean by 'friction?'
Me: I want to get in and go but I have to manually adjust he seat position from the previous driver (sometimes), try multiple times to get the cheap key in the ignition, turn off Auto Start / Stop, and turn off parts of ADAS EVERY SINGLE TIME I START THE VEHICLE!
Jim: Are you the guy that started the ADAS thread with 15K views and invented the Favorites Hack?
Me: Yes.
Jim: Liz, take this guy back down to the lobby and have security remove him from the building.
Liz: Jim. this isn't our building.
Jim: Doesn't matter, I want him OUT!

Nice humble brag lol

 

[stickshifter]

Only the Wrangler, Gladiator and Bronco have a lower crawl ratio than the Grenadier from the factory by virtue of the 4:1 transfer case. For those that need the lowest possible crawl ratio then those vehicles are a better fit out of the box. If you want to do technical rock crawling then a low ratio is extremely helpful, a requirement even, but for all other trail conditions it can be a hindrance. I own a Jeep wrangler with a crawl ratio of 81.33. I love it on the rocks but in nearly any other situation it is frustrating because top speed is limited to around 20 mpg unless you are comfortable driving at a very high engine rpm and burning through fuel. Because of this most off road driving is done in 4 high and low is only engaged when the low ratios are absolutely needed. In the Grenadier 4 low is good to around 40 mph which means it can be used for all trail conditions. In practice this will be more useful especially given the Grenadier is not designed as a technical terrain buggy. During those instances when on very steep but smooth slopes having to use a bit of brake or the the Hill Descent Control is the easy solution and preferable to constantly shifting into and out of 4 low because you can only trundle along once you hit the bottom of the slope. The Grenadier's crawl ratio of 53.8 (petrol) is perfect for all around use while the Jeeps and Bronco are more appropriate for the rough stuff. The question becomes, how much time will the vehicle really be used on the rocks or on really step slopes. I spend nearly all my trail time in Colorado and Utah and if driving the Jeep I am almost always in 4 high because most of the time I don't need 81.33:1 gear reduction. But I will admit there are times when I am very glad I have it.

Good summary, and lots of good points.

One thing I'd like to add is that the Grenadier would do much better than a Jeep (with the naturally aspirated 3.6 Pentastar) if both had a 4:1 low range, and - just guessing - but I think your complaints about the 4:1 low-range would largely be eliminated were it in the Grenadier.

The Grenadier - being forced induction - makes much more torque at low rpms than the 3.6 Pentastar. As a consequence of making good torque at low rpms, you do not have to shift into low-range in the Grenadier as often, and you can run moderate terrain in high-range. Beach driving, for example, will be great in high range (I grew up driving on the beach, and always ran in high in my older 4x4s - all of which made better low-end torque than the 3.6). The easy trails in Colorado and Utah can also be run in high-range (I'm thinking about forest service roads, like the road up to 4th of July Trailhead for you Boulder folk). But you would have a very low low-range for steep climbs and descents, and for technical terrain. For steep rocky trails - very common in Colorado and Utah - the 4:1 transfer case is much, much better than a 2.5:1. Its also safer (especially on steep descents), and can protect the vehicle from damage associated with over-revving to surmount an obstacle.

In contrast, the 3.6 Pentastar (which is similar to the 3.5 in the 3rd Gen Tacoma) is a naturally aspirated V6 engine, and it does not generate much torque below ~3600 rpms. As a consequence, you need to use low-range much more often than you would in a vehicle with low-end grunt like the Grenadier (or something with a big V8, or a diesel). The problem with the 3.6 Pentastar when paired with the 4:1 transfer case (your situation, I believe): is that your two options are opposite extremes - either too high or too low. Due to the lack of torque, you are forced to shift into low-range even in moderate terrain, and now you're too low, revving high, and forced to go slow.

So the problem with your Jeep is not the 4:1 transfer case, but the no-torque Pentastar. I've also had that problem in my Jeep, even re-geared to 4:56 (35-inch tires with a 4:1 transfer case).

The Grenadier - I believe - would be the best of both worlds with a 4:1 transfer case: enough low-end torque to handle moderate off-roading in high-range, and then a nice low crawl ratio in low-range for the difficult stuff.

I understand a lot of people are happy with the 2.5:1 transfer case. It would have been great if Ineos offered both a 2.5:1 and a 4:1 transfer case. Jeep (obviously a much bigger brand, selling 181,000 Wranglers in 2022) currently offers two transfer case ratios in the Wrangler: 2.72:1 and 4:1. In addition, Jeep offers different gearing in the axles: 3.45, 3.73, 4.10, 4.56, and 4.88. As other folk have mentioned, this stuff matters to some buyers; see, for example, post #53 from @Mountain4x4 here: https://www.theineosforum.com/threa...it-better-elevator-pitch-time.12414192/page-3

What do you think?

 

[TCMColorado]

I actually have an older Wrangler TJ Unlimited (long wheelbase) with the 4.0 liter inline six and a six speed manual. The 4.0 produces decent torque at low RPM and makes it easy to use 4 high for most trail conditions. But, I actually love having a very low crawl ratio in the Jeep. It makes difficult terrain both, climbs and descents, very easy to navigate. I generally pick an appropriate gear and simply let the engine idle me up or down with small application of throttle as needed. But as described in my previous post it is frustrating that low range is so low as to render it nearly unusable for anything but the most technical and steep terrain. In the Grenadier the higher reduction in low range makes it usable basically everywhere with the trade off of not providing the ultimate control of a 4:1.

Is 4 high an appropriate choice most of the time with 4 low then being reserved for the tough stuff (assuming 4:1 reduction)? A manual transmission verses an automatic makes a big difference. The auto can act as "buffer" of sorts. If say 1st gear high range is actually too big for the current terrain the torque converter & trasmission can hide this from the driver by allowing slip. But the down side is you don't really know it is happening and if it is frequent this can lead to over heating. Does the Grenadier produce enough torque down low that slip would be infrequent in most circumstances, maybe. The use of good judgement would definitely be required and an inexperienced drive might not be equiped with the ability to use such judgement . With a manual transmission like my Jeep the gear is the gear unless you want to burn out your clutch by not using it as the on-off device it is designed to be. Not that you never slip the clutch but it is done sparingly. As such you get immediate feedback if the gear is too high as the engine will bog or stall and you know it is time to switch to 4 low. So with the Grenadier you have a turbo engine that might limit being overgeared in 4 high but a transmission that can hide over gearing if it does occur. This is not an easy problem to solve for in the design of any off road vehicle. The ultimate solution would be a 3 speed transfer case with 1:1 for the road, 2.5:1 for general trail use and 4:1 for rocks/steeps. 3 speed transfer cases do exists but are only avaialbe in the aftermarket. The option of different ratios from Ineos would allow a buyer to choose their poision and does seem within the realm of future possibilites.

 

[stickshifter]

I like the 4.0 in the TJ. It reminds me of the the old 4.2 I6 engines in my old 1975 FJ-40 and 1978 CJ-7. Both made decent torque at relatively low rpms, and both were far more at home off-road than on the highway. The FJ was geared so low you could actually get out of the vehicle and let it chug along in first, walking along beside it with one hand on the steering wheel.

For sure - you don't want to use 4-high when you should be in low - whether its to prevent over heating or spinning of tires (bad for the trails, and bad for the drive train). I totally get your point - I was just offering a different perspective. I've only ever owned vehicles with manual transmissions, and despite the added challenges of off-roading with three pedals, I prefer getting the feedback and the interactive experience. But I'm also not driving trails like the Rubicon; I think that would get pretty tiring with a manual.

Back to the topic at hand: I've dealt with both "negative" situations: (1) being on steep and/or technical terrain in a vehicle with too high a low range, and (2) being on more moderate terrain in a vehicle with too low a low-range. I would much rather be stuck with #2 than with #1 - but everyone will make their own choice on that issue based on their own experiences and the terrain they travel. I respect choices other than my own.

Yeah, the Atlas 3-speed is a pretty cool bit of kit. I got a chance to drive a JK with an Atlas 3-speed a while back and really liked it. No cables with the shifter - all gear-driven. Definitely the way to go in a dedicated off-road rig. In this particular Jeep, the crawl ratio in the low gear was around 160:1 (you can get similar - or deeper - crawl ratios with the Inchworm setups in Toyota trucks).

Good conversation. Hope you enjoy your Grenadier.

 

[Mountain4x4]

I definitely side with the lower t case gearing folks obviously. But the sway bar disconnect reliability, is how should we say it.....so true. The Power Wagon one never worked for me, I was charged at the dealership 40.00 to grease the connector which fixed nothing However, could you make it reliable simply by making the stupid thing water proof? yep. What I could see on a Grenadier, is an easy to use manual disconnect or a cable control unit that you are forced to buy for any Power Wagon or Rubicon to make it work. For my Heavy Duty Work truck I decided another 2-3K to swap that out was not worth it. That would stick with the keep it simple and reliable moto.

 

[Mike AB]

Jim: What do you think about the Grenadier?
Me: I really like the vehicle but there is too much 'friction' for me to love it as a utilitarian vehicle like my '97 Defender.
Them: What do you mean by 'friction?'
Me: I want to get in and go but I have to manually adjust he seat position from the previous driver (sometimes), try multiple times to get the cheap key in the ignition, turn off Auto Start / Stop, and turn off parts of ADAS EVERY SINGLE TIME I START THE VEHICLE!
Jim: Are you the guy that started the ADAS thread with 15K views and invented the Favorites Hack?
Me: Yes.
Jim: Liz, take this guy back down to the lobby and have security remove him from the building.
Liz: Jim. this isn't our building.
Jim: Doesn't matter, I want him OUT!

Completely agree on the ADAS and the key. The key just doesn't fit easily

 

[Tomdoc]

Playing with one of these for my formative years seems to have paid off.

Never even noticed this concern...

 

[beg]

Stirling Trailer Centre. Yep, that’s right, a trailer specialist is an Ineos service partner

so when are you moving?!!

have you used Stirling trailers yet for anything I'm not far from them was going to use for service and warranty rather than travelling through to Edinburgh.

 

[Krabby]

What could make it better? A temp tag. That would help me actually get the truck.

 

[Coullabus]

have you used Stirling trailers yet for anything I'm not far from them was going to use for service and warranty rather than travelling through to Edinburgh.

Only for trailer repairs!

But I have been in touch with them to book in for warranty work, I’m coming to the mainland for a break, and it all works out for me. The email responses from them were very positive. Sarah-Jane Jessop responded. Hopefully good customer service bodes well!

We’ll be at Blair Drummond easter ish for two weeks. Grenadier owners up for a coffee while I’m there, please do get in touch

 

[AngusMacG]

What could make it better? A temp tag. That would help me actually get the truck.

You could be like me…driving with my transferred plates but no official registration yet or inspection sticker…We are allowed 10 days before you need to have your registration to be legally driving on the road. I’m at day 7…

 

[MTNDOG]

What could make it better? A temp tag. That would help me actually get the truck.

I've got crayons, construction paper and Beer! As long as we drink the beer first, cant see how we could possibly mess up making a temp tag for ya!

 

[Krabby]

 

[shiv.nandak]

PDC alarm goes off from the moment reverse is engaged, always front right, often rear left, as if something is in the closest position on the sensor map.

I'm also having this issue currently. Definitely nothing blocking the sensors, for me it's the rear left.

 

[YellowLab]

I think that, should I bump into Sir Jim, I would definitely thank him. He filled my need for a Defender - albeit in all but name - that takes the next step forward, improving on the last ‘Puma’ Defenders. Good solid engineering. In a vehicle with the soul of a British classless vehicle (there are not many cars that can be used off-road in the mountains and forests , but equally would pass, without a raised eyebrow, at the finest hotels and country houses.) Maybe this is a peculiarly British viewpoint.

Yes. There are teething issues. But my local Ineos Service partner has responded extremely positively. I say local, it’s 2 hours on a ferry and a 3:15hr drive Thats island life! Just two service partners in Scotland. Surely a new concept vehicle, from a new company to mass vehicle manufacturing, must surely have teething issues. It’s how these issues are dealt with that is the key.

Customer service. How will they deal with these issues. I have no negative experiences yet.

So, yes, I would thank Sir Jim. He’s achieved that which other makers have failed to achieve. As a retired person, with finite resources, I bought my ‘last car’ in 2018 (Volvo XC90 Inscription - fully loaded with extras beyond belief). Sir Jim dragged my bank balance out of retirement………

so what don’t I like? As far as the vehicle is concerned, driving it brings a big smile to my face. Mmmmm.…. So. maybe the Grenadier owners who actively seem to seek to find things to moan about bug me . Those who ’get it’ are not the moaners.

Once Jim asked you 'where do you live?' and your told him Islay - he and his team would drop to the floor in total awe and humbleness - also 'we are not worthy chants' that you hail from the home of the best single malt whisky ON THE PLANET!!! Jim should then give a Grenadier to everyone in your family - maybe the whole Island!!

My wife took to Islay for my 50th birthday - I was redeemed by the whisky made at the hands of the Gods!

 

[Coullabus]

Once Jim asked you 'where do you live?' and your told him Islay - he and his team would drop to the floor in total awe and humbleness - also 'we are not worthy chants' that you hail from the home of the best single malt whisky ON THE PLANET!!! Jim should then give a Grenadier to everyone in your family - maybe the whole Island!!

My wife took to Islay for my 50th birthday - I was redeemed by the whisky made at the hands of the Gods!

Best Whisky? Or the entire top ten Whiskies Currently nine Whisky Distillers, and several more being built!

 

[YellowLab]

Best Whisky? Or the entire top ten Whiskies Currently nine Whisky Distillers, and several more being built!

And picking a favorite of the 9 would be tough like picking which of your children to save from a burning building. I'm even struggling deciding on which one just typing this as their approaches are so different. I do want to make it back for Feis Ile in the future - you live in an amazing place!

 

[AngusMacG]

And picking a favorite of the 9 would be tough like picking which of your children to save from a burning building. I'm even struggling deciding on which one just typing this as their approaches are so different. I do want to make it back for Feis Ile in the future - you live in an amazing place!

Save the Whisky before the kids…

 

[shiv.nandak]

I have a few issues currently, thankfully none of those are mechanical. So I am not too bothered, but if someone has any idea regarding any of the following - let me know!

Issues:

1. When it's locked, I can actually open the rear door and set off the alarm. Thankfully the door does not fully open, it stops in the same position it would be if insufficient force was used to close the door.
2. Hearing a constant rubbing noise from the b-pillar on slightly uneven roads.
3. Rear left parking sensor is always red when reversing.

Areas of Improvement:

1. There is practically no road noise on Bridgestone tires, it would have been great if wind noise was not noticeable starting at 40mph.
2. Steering itself is not a problem, it is really the turning radius that complicates city driving.
3. Would have been nice if the side mirrors went down when reversing

The good:

1. I am absolutely amazed that they actually pulled it off
2. My wife loves it, she doesn't want to say it - but I can tell.