Steering

Shaky · Jul 24, 2023

I had the reverse journey, that led me make my previous comments about the steering last week.

This time the tyre pressures were all set at 36.5 psi, instead of the 40psi that they had been set at.

I will say one thing, the difference was night and day to the steering and handling of the first trip. I can only say I must have been bouncing down the road like a lunar landing buggy before.

As I had predicted, once I wasn’t fighting the steering, I can actually hustle the vehicle on open country roads quite well and even with the KO2 tyres fitted, it did I still quite a bit of confidence.

PBD - if you are driving to the system, I hope you are doing your cockpit drill and taking note of the limit points

PBD · Jul 25, 2023

Shaky said:
I had the reverse journey, that led me make my previous comments about the steering last week.

This time the tyre pressures were all set at 36.5 psi, instead of the 40psi that they had been set at.

I will say one thing, the difference was night and day to the steering and handling of the first trip. I can only say I must have been bouncing down the road like a lunar landing buggy before.

As I had predicted, once I wasn’t fighting the steering, I can actually hustle the vehicle on open country roads quite well and even with the KO2 tyres fitted, it did I still quite a bit of confidence.

PBD - if you are driving to the system, I hope you are doing your cockpit drill and taking note of the limit points

The ones I can remember, it was over 40 years ago, stuck in the brain though, as did the constant rapping on my knuckles by my instructor with a wooden ruler

Unimog 406 · Jul 25, 2023

Unimog 406 said:
Big day tomorrow, Ineos engineer will be evaluating/inspecting my steering issue 14.00 hour B.S.T.
Another 40 mile round trip.

Steering

Grenadier given the once over by Ineos Engineer Grant today. A very personable and professional gentleman.

After introducing himself he asked what my concerns were and what symptoms I observed.
His first action being starting up (Diesel) and moving the steering full lock to lock besides rocking the steering wheel in various motions.
He then thoroughly inspected under the bonnet various areas visually and by touch, in addition to the accessible steering components.
Moving onto the underside inspecting all the steering components with the engine off.
With the engine running I then assisted by operating the steering to his instructions whilst he observed and checked components.
On returning from his test drive, he stated that from the first few hundred yards he new there was a problem with the steering and a test at speed wasn't necessary.

Outcome
Steering requires further investigation at my agents premises with an Ineos engineer present at a date to be agreed.
They will collect my grenadier from home and supply a replacement vehicle, I don't know if it will be a Gren, somehow I doubt it?
From this arrangement I also doubt I will be seeing my vehicle back the same day!

After a considerable number of doubters comments on the forum I feel somewhat vindicated in my previous posts.

Logsplitter · Jul 25, 2023

Unimog 406 said:
Steering

Grenadier given the once over by Ineos Engineer Grant today. A very personable and professional gentleman.

After introducing himself he asked what my concerns were and what symptoms I observed.
His first action being starting up (Diesel) and moving the steering full lock to lock besides rocking the steering wheel in various motions.
He then thoroughly inspected under the bonnet various areas visually and by touch, in addition to the accessible steering components.
Moving onto the underside inspecting all the steering components with the engine off.
With the engine running I then assisted by operating the steering to his instructions whilst he observed and checked components.
On returning from his test drive, he stated that from the first few hundred yards he new there was a problem with the steering and a test at speed wasn't necessary.

Outcome
Steering requires further investigation at my agents premises with an Ineos engineer present at a date to be agreed.
They will collect my grenadier from home and supply a replacement vehicle, I don't know if it will be a Gren, somehow I doubt it?
From this arrangement I also doubt I will be seeing my vehicle back the same day!

After a considerable number of doubters comments on the forum I feel somewhat vindicated in my previous posts.

I got a Grenadier as a replacement whilst my vehicle was fixed at Harwoods.

Graham Winchester · Sep 10, 2023

A question for you all you more experienced Grenadier owners.

Free play in the steering column, mine seems excessive for a new vehicle.

With the vehicle stationary, wheels pointing directly ahead, engine off. Using just my thumb and index finger moving the steering wheel back and forth with no force.
15mm of free play which looks more excessive than it actually measured, accurately, before any resistance was experienced?
I would expect not any free play at all in any steering linkage set up, especially switched off and stationary, on any vehicle and certainly not in a new car and my steering is not as accurate as I would like.
The video has a bit off camera shake as I was jiggling the wheel and attempting to hold the camera STILL freehand. The indicator rod was not touching the wheel rim or moving sideways, it's just an optical illusion.
Surely I should not have any free play, just resistances to free movement?

Cheshire cat · Sep 10, 2023

Graham Winchester said:
A question for you all you more experienced Grenadier owners.

Free play in the steering column, mine seems excessive for a new vehicle.View attachment 7826505
With the vehicle stationary, wheels pointing directly ahead, engine off. Using just my thumb and index finger moving the steering wheel back and forth with no force.
15mm of free play which looks more excessive than it actually measured, accurately, before any resistance was experienced?
I would expect not any free play at all in any steering linkage set up, especially switched off and stationary, on any vehicle and certainly not in a new car and my steering is not as accurate as I would like.
The video has a bit off camera shake as I was jiggling the wheel and attempting to hold the camera STILL freehand. The indicator rod was not touching the wheel rim or moving sideways, it's just an optical illusion.
Surely I should not have any free play, just resistances to free movement?

Hmmm. Not tried whilst stationary but that is the sort of play I have whilst driving I would say. Presents me with absolutely no issues. I will check on my vehicle regarding stationary with engine off and get back to you.

Tinki · Sep 10, 2023

yeah same backlash here .

Cheshire cat · Sep 10, 2023

Graham Winchester said:
A question for you all you more experienced Grenadier owners.

Free play in the steering column, mine seems excessive for a new vehicle.View attachment 7826505
With the vehicle stationary, wheels pointing directly ahead, engine off. Using just my thumb and index finger moving the steering wheel back and forth with no force.
15mm of free play which looks more excessive than it actually measured, accurately, before any resistance was experienced?
I would expect not any free play at all in any steering linkage set up, especially switched off and stationary, on any vehicle and certainly not in a new car and my steering is not as accurate as I would like.
The video has a bit off camera shake as I was jiggling the wheel and attempting to hold the camera STILL freehand. The indicator rod was not touching the wheel rim or moving sideways, it's just an optical illusion.
Surely I should not have any free play, just resistances to free movement?

Just checked mine and inline with Tinki, I too have a similar amount of backlash. I can only guess that is why rack & pinion was such a revelation when it came out.

DaveB · Sep 10, 2023

Arguably the most popular 4wd in Australia the Toyota Landcruiser also uses recirculating ball steering.
And yes it also has a lot of play and a bit vague off centre feeling.
It also has live axles which aren't compatible with rack & pinion steering.

Graham Winchester · Sep 10, 2023

Cheshire cat said:
Just checked mine and inline with Tinki, I too have a similar amount of backlash. I can only guess that is why rack & pinion was such a revelation when it came out.

There's no driving one handed at any speed as in the videos on this forum, too many steering corrections required and it gets very hairy with under and over steer if making steering corrections at speed and in my opinion too many corrections, it's constant and I'm never anywhere near fully loaded. My old defender on the same tyres BFG All terrains, was a relaxed drive and when pushed drove well and predictably I can't help feeling somethings not right. I've been driving a lot of years the Grenadiers top heavy as are are many other trucks I've driven I adapt. I haven't even towed with her yet. P.S tyre pressures 36PSI
Are there any more thoughts out there why I may be having problems

Tinki · Sep 10, 2023

Graham Winchester said:
There's no driving one handed at any speed as in the videos on this forum, too many steering corrections required and it gets very hairy with under and over steer if making steering corrections at speed and in my opinion too many corrections, it's constant and I'm never anywhere near fully loaded. My old defender on the same tyres BFG All terrains, was a relaxed drive and when pushed drove well and predictably I can't help feeling somethings not right. I've been driving a lot of years the Grenadiers top heavy as are are many other trucks I've driven I adapt. I haven't even towed with her yet. P.S tyre pressures 36PSI
Are there any more thoughts out there why I may be having problems

i drive one handed almost all the time with constant minimal input . i think you will find that you get used to it . Never felt unsafe .

AnD3rew · Sep 10, 2023

Graham Winchester said:
There's no driving one handed at any speed as in the videos on this forum, too many steering corrections required and it gets very hairy with under and over steer if making steering corrections at speed and in my opinion too many corrections, it's constant and I'm never anywhere near fully loaded. My old defender on the same tyres BFG All terrains, was a relaxed drive and when pushed drove well and predictably I can't help feeling somethings not right. I've been driving a lot of years the Grenadiers top heavy as are are many other trucks I've driven I adapt. I haven't even towed with her yet. P.S tyre pressures 36PSI
Are there any more thoughts out there why I may be having problems

After the first few drives have adapted completely, I find driving one handed no problem, you do have to be careful at speed if you are adjusting something on screen and take your attention off road as it can be easy to wander but other than that no problem. I would disagree with your assertion that it is top heavy. In fact for a 4wd I would say it’s centre of gravity is actually lower than usual as long as you don’t have a lot of gear on the roof. With live axles and full ladder frame the weight is relatively low and relatively well centred.

If you really can’t drive it one handed maybe take it to agent for a check

Max · Sep 10, 2023

Graham Winchester said:
There's no driving one handed at any speed as in the videos on this forum, too many steering corrections required and it gets very hairy with under and over steer if making steering corrections at speed and in my opinion too many corrections, it's constant and I'm never anywhere near fully loaded. My old defender on the same tyres BFG All terrains, was a relaxed drive and when pushed drove well and predictably I can't help feeling somethings not right. I've been driving a lot of years the Grenadiers top heavy as are are many other trucks I've driven I adapt. I haven't even towed with her yet. P.S tyre pressures 36PSI
Are there any more thoughts out there why I may be having problems

I have the exact tyres on the Grenadier but 40psi and have no issues...the only time I feel a neutral spot is on a perfectly flat straight bit of road...not very common in OZ...one hand no issues...towing with a fair bit of weight has been fine

DaveB · Sep 10, 2023

Graham Winchester said:
There's no driving one handed at any speed as in the videos on this forum, too many steering corrections required and it gets very hairy with under and over steer if making steering corrections at speed and in my opinion too many corrections, it's constant and I'm never anywhere near fully loaded. My old defender on the same tyres BFG All terrains, was a relaxed drive and when pushed drove well and predictably I can't help feeling somethings not right. I've been driving a lot of years the Grenadiers top heavy as are are many other trucks I've driven I adapt. I haven't even towed with her yet. P.S tyre pressures 36PSI
Are there any more thoughts out there why I may be having problems

36 PSI seems very low for on road driving.
Of course you may actually have something loose in your steering.

grenadierboy · Sep 10, 2023

Graham Winchester said:
A question for you all you more experienced Grenadier owners.

Free play in the steering column, mine seems excessive for a new vehicle.View attachment 7826505
With the vehicle stationary, wheels pointing directly ahead, engine off. Using just my thumb and index finger moving the steering wheel back and forth with no force.
15mm of free play which looks more excessive than it actually measured, accurately, before any resistance was experienced?
I would expect not any free play at all in any steering linkage set up, especially switched off and stationary, on any vehicle and certainly not in a new car and my steering is not as accurate as I would like.
The video has a bit off camera shake as I was jiggling the wheel and attempting to hold the camera STILL freehand. The indicator rod was not touching the wheel rim or moving sideways, it's just an optical illusion.
Surely I should not have any free play, just resistances to free movement?

Graham,

Just checked my Grenadier - can get freeplay of 12-15mm without much effort (couple of fingers).

I then went to my wife's brand new MB EQA250 - steering freeplay of 10mm but, quite a bit stiffer - the difference is rack & pinion v. recirculating ball.

FYI: I had even more freeplay in my 230GE G Wagen with recirculating ball - probably 20mm.

I drove home yesterday with about 30km on a dual road in poor condition with no steering issues, wandering etc. & often with my right hand on top of steering wheel with elbow resting on the window sill.

As mentioned above, going into/through roundabouts and turning corners you need to "set-up" the Grenadier a little differently, taking into account the size, weight, steering (recirc) of the Gren. The Gren can't be "flicked around" like sedans or even small SUV's.

We know that the Gren is very heavy, (i.e. 750kg heavier than my old G Wagen even though similar dimensions) - so I am very mindful of this when driving at speed.

DCPU · Sep 10, 2023

Unimog 406 said:
Steering requires further investigation at my agents premises with an Ineos engineer present at a date to be agreed.

So how did this play out?

emax · Sep 11, 2023

I wouldn’t call it “play”.

The difference with play is that you will feel a pronounced, sudden resistance as you turn left or right toward the area where the play ends. Then, a clear, sudden steering resistance can be felt. It's an almost digital change.

This is not the case with the Grenadier. It's more like a dead zone where just nothing seems to happen. A bit like a rubber-zone which must exceed a certain level of force to have an effect on the wheels. It feels kind of rubbery.

I've got used to it now. But my Grenadier pulls slightly to the left, the toe alignment needs to be checked. And because that's the case, I have to constantly correct a little, which is tiring and gives an inaccurate feeling.

This permanent correcting gives together with the recirculating ball steering the impression of a hard to control play - which it isn't imo. The problem is rather that in such a scenario (pulling slightly sideways) you permanently have to deal with that 'dead zone', and that feels odd.

If the alignment were correct, I think there would be far fewer corrections required while driving and the feel would be less inaccurate. The 'play' would literally not come into play (pun intended).

I think, with that type of steering an absolutely correct track adjustment is key.

So I asked my agent to check and adjust the track and steering. I'm waiting for an appointment.

more presice wording

DCPU · Sep 11, 2023

All the correct steering setup angles/lengths would be very useful to know if anyone with access to the online workshop manual could get a screenshot? (@Steven Cook ?)

Steven Cook · Sep 11, 2023

DCPU said:
All the correct steering setup angles/lengths would be very useful to know if anyone with access to the online workshop manual could get a screenshot? (@Steven Cook ?)

Is this what you are looking for?

DCPU · Sep 11, 2023

Superb - yes, greatly appreciated.

Is there a section on adjusting the drag link, anything along the lines of "Adjust drag link to a nominal 924 mm between ball joint centres."

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