(The battery and monitor thread )Car dead in the middle of the woods

das mo · Jul 23, 2023

Hi all.

Car is dead.

Battery was at 50% 2 hours back.
We now packed all together and car does not start.

Is there an Ineos support hotline I can call on a Sunday?

Thanks

emax · Jul 23, 2023

das mo said:
We camped at that spot for 2 nights.
Fridge connected via the 12V plug in the boot. Did not find time to wire it to the CTEK. But assumed boot one is safe to use for that purpose, no?

I'd think so.

But the CTEK thing is still a bit unclear to me as the manual does only contain only a general description but no technical or functional details.

das mo · Jul 23, 2023

Eric said:
Surely the boot 12v socket is wired direct off the main battery as it is a standard feature on all cars and not just those with aux battery.

I thought differently as it is only powered, if I switch on the overhead PWR switch, which only comes with the second battery setup.

emax · Jul 23, 2023

On the CTEK is a "load" outbound connector. I already was wondering about why there is nothing connected and as I've been told (here in the forum) this is so by standard but one can connect e.g. a fridge or so to reduce the load on the primary battery. Otherwise, the load will of course remain on the primary battery.

Miki · Jul 23, 2023

das mo said:
Back on the road.

A Landcruiser from the 80ies fixed me.

This is all very weird. Battery showed 100% charge after only 5 min.

Very concerned about the 2 battery setup with CTEK and system not showing any info on load of the 2. Also CTEK should have kept charge to start, no?

Gald you are up and going.
There is a possibilitty that the 2nd battery, connected via the CTEK was charging the main.
Always carry a short, heavy duty cable (jump lead) with clips at each end.
You can use this to circumnavigate the charging/battery systems by connecting both the leisure and Main battery in parrallel - which wil 99% of the time get you going if the main battery enters a discharged state.

I have been reading up about intelligent alternators and the difficulties in charging a dual battery system.
Apparently it is very difficult to get right and is fraught with issues and problems..
I am not saying that the INEOS auto electrican is stupid but I do think they have misunderstood the complexity of this task.
Using the ECU to control the alternators output and battery charge state seems to be counter intuative when they have also fitted an intelligent charger.

I also read with interest that you can't use AGM/Gell batteries with these moderm alternators as they will over-voltage the battery causing bubbles which damages the batteries.
There also seems to be some complication with Lithium Iron batteries as they can be overcharged/discharged.
If the ECU is having issues (which it sounds like) then I think an advisable item in the 'tool kit' is a NOCO starter pack.

DenisM · Jul 23, 2023

emax said:
On the CTEK is a "load" outbound connector. I already was wondering about why there is nothing connected and as I've been told (here in the forum) this is so by standard but one can connect e.g. a fridge or so to reduce the load on the primary battery. Otherwise, the load will of course remain on the primary battery.

Meaning that perhaps the power socket in the rear compartment, ought for example, be powered by taking its positive feed from the "load" terminal of the Ctek Smartpass?

DenisM · Jul 23, 2023

Miki said:
Gald you are up and going.
There is a possibilitty that the 2nd battery, connected via the CTEK was charging the main.
Always carry a short, heavy duty cable (jump lead) with clips at each end.
You can use this to circumnavigate the charging/battery systems by connecting both the leisure and Main battery in parrallel - which wil 99% of the time get you going if the main battery enters a discharged state.

I have been reading up about intelligent alternators and the difficulties in charging a dual battery system.
Apparently it is very difficult to get right and is fraught with issues and problems..
I am not saying that the INEOS auto electrican is stupid but I do think they have misunderstood the complexity of this task.
Using the ECU to control the alternators output and battery charge state seems to be counter intuative when they have also fitted an intelligent charger.

I also read with interest that you can't use AGM/Gell batteries with these moderm alternators as they will over-voltage the battery causing bubbles which damages the batteries.
There also seems to be some complication with Lithium Iron batteries as they can be overcharged/discharged.
If the ECU is having issues (which it sounds like) then I think an advisable item in the 'tool kit' is a NOCO starter pack.

Are we certain that the batteries are AGM/Gell? I thought they are heavy duty high purity lead acid "wet" cell.
The advantage of inserting a CtekDS250 or similar in tandem with the SmartPass 120s (apart from the solar input) is that it has a separate ignition switch dependant 12V signal input to take account of the "smart alternator" characteristics and provide a consistent charging current from the alternator. I'm not certain how it works its magic ...perhaps it overrides the vehicle ECU commands to the alternator... I'd welcome enlightenment from someone who understands!

PBD · Jul 23, 2023

DenisM said:
Are we certain that the batteries are AGM/Gell? I thought they are heavy duty high purity lead acid "wet" cell.

Mine are agm

YIPPE · Jul 23, 2023

Eric said:
Surely the boot 12v socket is wired direct off the main battery as it is a standard feature on all cars and not just those with aux battery.

Is this true, as mine does not have it. I spec'd standard wagon and no auxiliary switching/wiring.

beg · Jul 23, 2023

Miki said:
Gald you are up and going.
There is a possibilitty that the 2nd battery, connected via the CTEK was charging the main.
Always carry a short, heavy duty cable (jump lead) with clips at each end.
You can use this to circumnavigate the charging/battery systems by connecting both the leisure and Main battery in parrallel - which wil 99% of the time get you going if the main battery enters a discharged state.

I have been reading up about intelligent alternators and the difficulties in charging a dual battery system.
Apparently it is very difficult to get right and is fraught with issues and problems..
I am not saying that the INEOS auto electrican is stupid but I do think they have misunderstood the complexity of this task.
Using the ECU to control the alternators output and battery charge state seems to be counter intuative when they have also fitted an intelligent charger.

I also read with interest that you can't use AGM/Gell batteries with these moderm alternators as they will over-voltage the battery causing bubbles which damages the batteries.
There also seems to be some complication with Lithium Iron batteries as they can be overcharged/discharged.
If the ECU is having issues (which it sounds like) then I think an advisable item in the 'tool kit' is a NOCO starter pack.

So to get this straight @Miki if I connect the jump cable pos to pos that will allow the veh to start using both batteries in parrallel have I got that right ?

Tazzieman · Jul 23, 2023

My notes show Ineos stated the chosen auxiliary battery is a 105Ah EFB Moll (this was some months back - I haven't got my own car yet)
Features
I'll be interested to see what is actually installed

emax · Jul 23, 2023

DenisM said:
Meaning that perhaps the power socket in the rear compartment, ought for example, be powered by taking it's positive feed from the "load" terminal of the Ctek Smartpass?

At a first glance, yes. But neither me nor anybody else on the forum has a wiring diagram yet. Your proposal sounds right to me. But there will more loads be added so it will take a proper installation box from which they can be fed and some extra fuses may be. This installtion should then be connected to the CTEK "load" connector.

That's at least my understanding of it - but I might of course be wrong.

Tazzieman · Jul 23, 2023

beg said:
So to get this straight @Miki if I connect the jump cable pos to pos that will allow the veh to start using both batteries in parrallel have I got that right ?

See https://outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-electrics/jump-starting-options/

Miki · Jul 23, 2023

beg said:
So to get this straight @Miki if I connect the jump cable pos to pos that will allow the veh to start using both batteries in parrallel have I got that right ?

Yes.
The Black (neg) are connected together already (common earth)
Connect, start the car, remove the lead.

It would be highly unlikely that both batteries were 'dead' - it's possible, but I would estimate that 99% of the time this would get your car going again.

beg · Jul 23, 2023

Something else to put in spare wheel box

Tazzieman · Jul 23, 2023

beg said:
Something else to put in spare wheel box

And a canvas wheel rubbish bag to deter pilferers!

Eric · Jul 23, 2023

das mo said:
I thought differently as it is only powered, if I switch on the overhead PWR switch, which only comes with the second battery setup.

What about those vehicles with a single battery, they still come with the fist row of O/H switches and operate the same with the O/H PWR switch that energises the boot and rear USB ports as in the manual applicable to all vehicles including those with single batteries.

https://www.theineosforum.com/resources/grenadier-pocket-guide.11/download

DenisM · Jul 23, 2023

Tazzieman said:
My notes show Ineos stated the chosen auxiliary battery is a 105Ah EFB Moll (this was some months back - I haven't got my own car yet)
Features
I'll be interested to see what is actually installed

The battery is EFB but different from AGM. This forum is one long learning exercise for this old dog to learn new stuff!

Battery technologies

batteryworld.varta-automotive.com

"2. EFB batteries – many charging cycles and long life

EFB batteries are an optimized, higher performance version of the wet battery. The abbreviation “EFB” stands for “Enhanced Flooded Battery”. Here too, the plates are insulated from each other with a microporous separator. Between the plate and the separator there is also a polyester scrim. This material helps to stabilize the active material of the plates and extend the life of the battery. EFB batteries have a large number of possible charging cycles and provide more than double the partial and deep discharge performance in comparison with conventional batteries.
EFB batteries are often installed in vehicles with simple automatic start-stop systems. Due to their superior performance batteries with EFB technology are also increasingly used as replacements for conventional lead-acid batteries."

Miki · Jul 23, 2023

DenisM said:
Are we certain that the batteries are AGM/Gell? I thought they are heavy duty high purity lead acid "wet" cell.
The advantage of inserting a CtekDS250 or similar in tandem with the SmartPass 120s (apart from the solar input) is that it has a separate ignition switch dependant 12V signal input to take account of the "smart alternator" characteristics and provide a consistent charging current from the alternator. I'm not certain how it works its magic ...perhaps it overrides the vehicle ECU commands to the alternator... I'd welcome enlightenment from someone who understands!

The CTEK is a smart DC/DC charger that is (in theory) designed to overcome the issues created by these new 'smart alternators'.
The issue is that the smart alternators 'turn off' which puts less strain on the engine so reduces emissions. when the engine management system (ECU) tells it that no voltage/current is needed.
Over voltage can also be a problem...
To overcome this a smart DC/DC charger emulates a Battery to Battery connection, balancing the voltages across the two batteries, boosting when it's low and attenuating when it's high.
These smart chargers are independant of the cars ECU controlled alternator so aren't able to keep everything tip-top if the alternator isn't providing a charging voltage/current in the first place (obviously).

In the old days when the alternator failed a red light came on on the dash (indicating that 12.7V or more wasn't being generated), these smart things often don't kick out more than 5V so instread of a simple voltage sensitive relay and bulb you now need a computer.
I understand this is called progress ?

Here is a reasonably clear article.

Aux Battery Charging With Smart Alternators | 12 Volt Planet

A guide to the benefits of using battery to battery chargers to overcome split charging problems caused by smart alternators on modern Euro 5 & 6 vehicles.

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

Miki · Jul 23, 2023

PBD said:
Mine are agm

Have you a picture ?

AnD3rew · Jul 23, 2023

emax said:
On the CTEK is a "load" outbound connector. I already was wondering about why there is nothing connected and as I've been told (here in the forum) this is so by standard but one can connect e.g. a fridge or so to reduce the load on the primary battery. Otherwise, the load will of course remain on the primary battery.

Yes, I do wonder why some of the outlets at least are not connected to the SmaryPass load. I will definitely be making up a Fridge lead connected to the load of the smartpass to feed into the rear. I may also see if it’s possible to attach the roof outlets to it for camp lights.

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