On the Grenadier Fence in Brisbane

DaveB · Mar 24, 2023

DCPU said:
You have to remember that JLR have been hit hard on supply side issues, so sales figures are impacted hard when looking at historical comparisons.

If Doug DeMuro was correct when he said they were buying back dealer cars and wrecked vehicles to salvage for parts then they are in a bad way

DesertGecko · Jul 20, 2023

Bit of an update. I have followed the Grenadier for many years now. I was very sure I'd end up replacing our Defender with one.

I didn't jump in because I've had genuinely traumatic experiences with new design production cars. Like really really bad. I wanted to let the bugs and niggles be sorted before I bought. I wanted to try one in my garage (yes it's really really tight both at the front and the back) and a quick look with a real one would have solved that. I wanted a car next year as I have a desert crossing this year and didn't think I'd have time to set a new car up before it. I wanted to let someone develop a bigger tank for them. Above all .. my dear old defender is still relatively low mileage, and does what it's always done as well as it's always done it. I don't have the space or finance to have two sitting around so once it's gone - it's gone and I can never get it back. So I wanted to be really sure.

Anyway, this was a fine plan and it was one I was going with. We did a test drive day and were impressed at it's offroad and up to 20kph driving. But unfortunately we've had three monstrous price rises by the time the first car was delivered. September 21 the price was 85 +onroads. I'm definitely in. Then there was another $12500 price rise. And I'm still in maybe. And now there is another one again and I still haven't seen a production car. So now my trialmaster I wanted is $140k. If I pair out everything I'd like and just get what I think I absolutely need I could keep it to maybe low 130's.

And I'm like - you know what? I just don't think it's worth it. I just don't drive my car enough to justify it I don't think. And I don't think I can live with the stress of worrying about damaging a 140k car on sticks and bushes, and about buckets of bait falling over in the back. I congratulate all the people who have taken the punt and ordered one and are now getting theirs. You've got a good value car and I hope it goes well. Personally I'll watch with interest and wish everyone the best.

Maybe in years to come they will hold or drop the prices, or I'll actually get some wage increases and they will seem better value. But for the moment I just can't see it happening. With the 90k trade in on my defender maybe I'll get a very nice van, or another car and a van with the change. Maybe I'll just keep driving the old girl for a while. It's got more space, more range, and has enough payload that I can actually put some stuff in it. And it's proven and reliable.

I really do think that once the rush of early adopters have their cars I think Ineos are going to struggle to sell them in volume here. Maybe that's the catch.. Maybe they don't have much volume to sell. But that brings into question whether there will be adequate and ongoing support for them. I actually thought at launch prices they would sell literally tens of thousands. Supply and demand and all. Who knows.

Davman · Jul 20, 2023

Or I would just wait a few months.
Gremlins would of been fixed, and there will be quite a few more cars available on Carsales for closer to the original early adopter price with very low klms on them.

I am pretty sure I wouldn’t buy one now at the new pricing - for me the $115k was a stretch.

Sam · Jul 21, 2023

Respect to @DesertGecko for setting out his/her reasoning - whatever works best for *you*. Not sure i'd be in at current prices either, though I haven't also recently gone through the rigmarole of looking at viable alternatives, which tends to re-evaluate the value of things.

I feel more optimistic about future sales - I think the best advert for the IG will be once a heap hits the road, so we'll see. Not hugely important to me, seeing hundreds of thousands out there, just that mine will be sustainably supported.

Hope you stick around @DesertGecko

AnD3rew · Jul 21, 2023

DesertGecko said:
Bit of an update. I have followed the Grenadier for many years now. I was very sure I'd end up replacing our Defender with one.

I didn't jump in because I've had genuinely traumatic experiences with new design production cars. Like really really bad. I wanted to let the bugs and niggles be sorted before I bought. I wanted to try one in my garage (yes it's really really tight both at the front and the back) and a quick look with a real one would have solved that. I wanted a car next year as I have a desert crossing this year and didn't think I'd have time to set a new car up before it. I wanted to let someone develop a bigger tank for them. Above all .. my dear old defender is still relatively low mileage, and does what it's always done as well as it's always done it. I don't have the space or finance to have two sitting around so once it's gone - it's gone and I can never get it back. So I wanted to be really sure.

Anyway, this was a fine plan and it was one I was going with. We did a test drive day and were impressed at it's offroad and up to 20kph driving. But unfortunately we've had three monstrous price rises by the time the first car was delivered. September 21 the price was 85 +onroads. I'm definitely in. Then there was another $12500 price rise. And I'm still in maybe. And now there is another one again and I still haven't seen a production car. So now my trialmaster I wanted is $140k. If I pair out everything I'd like and just get what I think I absolutely need I could keep it to maybe low 130's.

And I'm like - you know what? I just don't think it's worth it. I just don't drive my car enough to justify it I don't think. And I don't think I can live with the stress of worrying about damaging a 140k car on sticks and bushes, and about buckets of bait falling over in the back. I congratulate all the people who have taken the punt and ordered one and are now getting theirs. You've got a good value car and I hope it goes well. Personally I'll watch with interest and wish everyone the best.

Maybe in years to come they will hold or drop the prices, or I'll actually get some wage increases and they will seem better value. But for the moment I just can't see it happening. With the 90k trade in on my defender maybe I'll get a very nice van, or another car and a van with the change. Maybe I'll just keep driving the old girl for a while. It's got more space, more range, and has enough payload that I can actually put some stuff in it. And it's proven and reliable.

I really do think that once the rush of early adopters have their cars I think Ineos are going to struggle to sell them in volume here. Maybe that's the catch.. Maybe they don't have much volume to sell. But that brings into question whether there will be adequate and ongoing support for them. I actually thought at launch prices they would sell literally tens of thousands. Supply and demand and all. Who knows.

I think INEOS will continue to sell the volume of vehicles they have forecast to sell across their models. It isn’t overly ambitious on a global scale and in places like Europe and the US they are already limited by the fact that they don’t have any low or zero emmisions vehicles yet to balance against their ICE vehicles so regulations limit the number they are allowed to sell. I think they will be fine. If you look at the real alternatives out there that truly compare the prices, while definitely not cheap, are also not over the top in comparison. I don’t think INEOS ever expected or intended to be a mass market vehicle

DesertGecko · Jul 21, 2023

Sam said:
Respect to @DesertGecko for setting out his/her reasoning - whatever works best for *you*. Not sure i'd be in at current prices either, though I haven't also recently gone through the rigmarole of looking at viable alternatives, which tends to re-evaluate the value of things.

I feel more optimistic about future sales - I think the best advert for the IG will be once a heap hits the road, so we'll see. Not hugely important to me, seeing hundreds of thousands out there, just that mine will be sustainably supported.

Hope you stick around @DesertGecko

Thank you. I will continue to watch with interest.

I just checked and I can buy a patrol for 92k drive a way (or maybe less). For a couple k I can put a 152l auxiliary tank on it bringing fuel capacity to nearly 300l. It might drink hard but that's good range!

Anyway I'm sure there will be options.

DesertGecko · Jul 21, 2023

AnD3rew said:
I think INEOS will continue to sell the volume of vehicles they have forecast to sell across their models. It isn’t overly ambitious on a global scale and in places like Europe and the US they are already limited by the fact that they don’t have any low or zero emmisions vehicles yet to balance against their ICE vehicles so regulations limit the number they are allowed to sell. I think they will be fine. If you look at the real alternatives out there that truly compare the prices, while definitely not cheap, are also not over the top in comparison. I don’t think INEOS ever expected or intended to be a mass market vehicle

Time will tell. I just can't see who's going to buy them at that price. They are too expensive for the utility market and not luxurious enough for the luxury market. At this point I can see lots of capability gaps around weights and fuel capacities. There is lots of competition that is lots cheaper. I was prepare to pay over the odds for a defender like replacement. But now we're talking silly money.

I can only see them being a niche player. Whether that will be enough to support their dealer and support network is to be seen. When I bought my defender they were only selling a few hundred a year. But it was ok as LR had many other cars to support the brand. Anyway - I hope they succeed.

OzGrenny · Jul 21, 2023

AnD3rew said:
I don’t think INEOS ever expected or intended to be a mass market vehicle

They're a member of the European small-volume car manufacturers Alliance (ESCA). Emissions regulations stipulate that they are only allowed to produce 22,000 "vans" and 10,000 "cars" a year by the EU.
So because in Europe they have the commercial version and passenger version, the max output for INEOS is approx 32,000 p/y until the EV and Hydrogen engine comes along & gives them the emissions reduction they require to increase production volumes.

Quote from the July 2022 article regarding EU emissions regulations: https://www.goauto.com.au/news/gene...handed-ice-ban-lifeline/2022-07-05/88285.html
"an agreement was reached that would enable brands that sell fewer than 10,000 cars or 22,000 vans a year to circumvent the interim targets of a 55 per cent reduction in CO2 for the former (and 50 per cent for the latter) by 2030.
“As far as niche producers are concerned, the exemption is up to the end of 2035,” Mss Pannier-Runacher was quoted as saying.
The “derogation” certainly suits the European small-volume car manufacturers alliance (ESCA), which represents brands such as McLaren, Aston Martin, Bugatti, Pagani, Koenigsegg, Ineos Automotive and Rimac (but not Ferrari or Lamborghini, although the Italian supercar brands will ultimately benefit from the development)."

TheDocAUS · Jul 21, 2023

DesertGecko said:
Time will tell. I just can't see who's going to buy them at that price. They are too expensive for the utility market and not luxurious enough for the luxury market. At this point I can see lots of capability gaps around weights and fuel capacities..

I commonly see Tradies with 70 Series utes that must have cost $150, 000 to 200, 000 - all a tax deduction. Some of the offroaders seem to go over $200, 000.

In March when looking to buy the 70 series was more expensive once you add the accessories.

My mate who spent 25 years in Toyota spares said avoid the 70 series because of diff problems. They break down way more than people let on.

AnD3rew · Jul 21, 2023

DesertGecko said:
Time will tell. I just can't see who's going to buy them at that price. They are too expensive for the utility market and not luxurious enough for the luxury market. At this point I can see lots of capability gaps around weights and fuel capacities. There is lots of competition that is lots cheaper. I was prepare to pay over the odds for a defender like replacement. But now we're talking silly money.

I can only see them being a niche player. Whether that will be enough to support their dealer and support network is to be seen. When I bought my defender they were only selling a few hundred a year. But it was ok as LR had many other cars to support the brand. Anyway - I hope they succeed.

Plenty of people spending $150-250k+ on Landcruisers with modifications and they aren’t really luxury vehicles even in LC300 specs let alone 70 series. The New Defenders in their higher specs probably outdo Grenadier on luxury but are significantly more expensive even after price rises and they are just not as rugged as Grenadier, if you want body on frame and solid axle there aren’t many if any competitors in the luxury space, even G-Wagens now IFS. There are things to be desired in terms of load capacity and fuel capacity, load capacity would have have been nice to be higher but they are not uncompetitive, fuel capacity is competitive with everything except the Landcruiser family (incl Prado) but yes disappointing how little opportunity even for aftermarket upgrades.

DaveB · Jul 21, 2023

Sam said:
Respect to @DesertGecko for setting out his/her reasoning - whatever works best for *you*. Not sure i'd be in at current prices either, though I haven't also recently gone through the rigmarole of looking at viable alternatives, which tends to re-evaluate the value of things.

I feel more optimistic about future sales - I think the best advert for the IG will be once a heap hits the road, so we'll see. Not hugely important to me, seeing hundreds of thousands out there, just that mine will be sustainably supported.

Hope you stick around @DesertGecko

Closest competitors I can get to my spec
Landrover GR sport but would need to add bar work etc
The new Nissan Patrol Warrior Y63 is supposed to be the direct competitor to the Toyota GR sport so will no doubt be the same price bracket and also still need barwork etc.

2024 Nissan Patrol Warrior officially detailed - carsales.com.au

Full specs but no pricing yet for Nissan’s homegrown full-size off-road SUV

www.carsales.com.au

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVV1tLVTsiE

Sam · Jul 21, 2023

DesertGecko said:
Time will tell. I just can't see who's going to buy them at that price. They are too expensive for the utility market and not luxurious enough for the luxury market.

You may be right. Who knows. I think differently about the matter of appeal. With apologies for self-quoting, here's my thoughts from a while back...

"IG will inevitably become something of a Toorak/Chelsea Tractor, but worth making point - particularly noticeable here in WA - is that these affluent types are also active and go to rural places. They swim, they kayak, they drag mountain bikes and boats around, they visit wineries and their second homes down south, doing practical energetic things. They’re keen to show that they are down to earth and purposeful, whilst also wanting a bit of luxury and performance in their lives. European brands are aspirational to them.

I think they’ll want a Grenadier."

https://www.theineosforum.com/threa...e-victoria-24-26-feb.12411047/post-1333155395

AnD3rew · Jul 21, 2023

DaveB said:
Closest competitors I can get to my spec
Landrover GR sport but would need to add bar work etc
The new Nissan Patrol Warrior Y63 is supposed to be the direct competitor to the Toyota GR sport so will no doubt be the same price bracket and also still need barwork etc.

2024 Nissan Patrol Warrior officially detailed - carsales.com.au

Full specs but no pricing yet for Nissan’s homegrown full-size off-road SUV

www.carsales.com.au

View attachment 7820730
View attachment 7820731

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVV1tLVTsiE

Yep that was my assessment as well, GRsport was the closest at over $150k but doesn’t include roo bar, brush guards, winch, dual batteries etc the only real advantage is fuel capacity.

Solmanic · Jul 21, 2023

You are correct in that it is foolish to launch a brand new $130K+ first generation vehicle into the bush, but the Grenadier is not your usual "first generation" vehicle. The drivetrain is tried and tested on other platforms. The body is an evolution of the W463 G-Wagen (thanks to Magna) which, let's face it, only looks like an original Defender for marketing and nostalgia purposes. It's really only the software and systems integration that had to be developed by Ineos from scratch, and that seems to be where the majority of issues lie. I have full confidence these will get ironed out but looking at the MY24 specs, there will inevitably be more electrickery added into subsequent model years to keep up with safety standards. My line of thinking is that these first series Grenadiers will also be the simplest they are ever allowed to make. As long as they can sort out the software, I can't see much risk anywhere else in the design.

AnD3rew · Jul 21, 2023

Sam said:
You may be right. Who knows. I think differently about the matter of appeal. With apologies for self-quoting, here's my thoughts from a while back...

"IG will inevitably become something of a Toorak/Chelsea Tractor, but worth making point - particularly noticeable here in WA - is that these affluent types are also active and go to rural places. They swim, they kayak, they drag mountain bikes and boats around, they visit wineries and their second homes down south, doing practical energetic things. They’re keen to show that they are down to earth and purposeful, whilst also wanting a bit of luxury and performance in their lives. European brands are aspirational to them.

I think they’ll want a Grenadier."

https://www.theineosforum.com/threa...e-victoria-24-26-feb.12411047/post-1333155395

Totally agree, I at least partly meet that description, I will not use for work farm or commercial purposes, I am a city dweller. But I will use for touring in rural areas, visiting relatives in the bush, fishing up the beach etc. But I will also use it for camping in 4wd destinations for lesuire, I will do some weekend 4wd club trips and I do intend to do some remote touring including desert crossings etc. Do I need a tough and capable 4wd? No, do I want one? Yes, does it meet my needs? Yes. It has enough nice bits, leather etc to make me a feel like I am not driving a tradie ute (nothing wrong with being a tradie but I am not one) it has some character, it is hopefully built tough enough to last 15+ years as I approach retirement and it is capable enough to do the stuff I want and am brave enough to do. I think there are quite a lot of people like me, true they are mostly buying Toyotas and possibly New Defenders, some are buying dual cab utes and pimping them up, but I think these appeal to people who like to have something a bit different.

Sam · Jul 21, 2023

Nailed it @AnD3rew

"Defender. Fixed."

TheDocAUS · Jul 21, 2023

Thanks for the various comments. It confirms my analysis and that I made the right decision for my needs – the Grenadier.

DaveB · Jul 21, 2023

AnD3rew said:
Totally agree, I at least partly meet that description, I will not use for work farm or commercial purposes, I am a city dweller. But I will use for touring in rural areas, visiting relatives in the bush, fishing up the beach etc. But I will also use it for camping in 4wd destinations for lesuire, I will do some weekend 4wd club trips and I do intend to do some remote touring including desert crossings etc. Do I need a tough and capable 4wd? No, do I want one? Yes, does it meet my needs? Yes. It has enough nice bits, leather etc to make me a feel like I am not driving a tradie ute (nothing wrong with being a tradie but I am not one) it has some character, it is hopefully built tough enough to last 15+ years as I approach retirement and it is capable enough to do the stuff I want and am brave enough to do. I think there are quite a lot of people like me, true they are mostly buying Toyotas and possibly New Defenders, some are buying dual cab utes and pimping them up, but I think these appeal to people who like to have something a bit different.

I don't need a hard core off road, desert crossing machine.
I do need a 4wd and something that can handle back roads, gravel and dirt roads and access onto mine sites and rural areas.
I also want to be able to tow a boat and a van, although I currently don't have either.
Any of the main 4wds will do. But I am not looking for something that "will do"
I am also not far away from retiring and I saw both my father and father in law buy a sensible little Toyota sedan/hatch just before retiring.
Both kept them for 20+ years of safe, sensible, reliable, boring driving.
Neither towed anything, went on long drives, tied a paddle board or kayak to the roof, drove on a beach or chucked a load of landscaping supplies in the back.
Neither drove at dawn or dusk because of the risk of hitting roos, wombats, goats or horses.
Neither thought about just going for a drive because they just wanted to go for a drive.
The car was nothing more to them than the fridge or the washing machine.
I don't want to live the rest of my days like that.

DesertGecko · Jul 21, 2023

Time will tell on the alternatives.

Sam said:
Nailed it @AnD3rew

"Defender. Fixed."

You are right in so many ways. 1947 ergonomics fixed. That was the appeal. I think that's mostly what they've delivered.

But am I prepared to run over trees and wear the panel damage that inevitably comes with using cars hard off road? How will I cover the capability gaps to my defender (range, payload, luggage space)? Am I prepared to tip in 90k for that comfort when I only really use the car on holidays (it's done 1500k in 2023 so far). Yes - the grenadier would be more comfortable but that's really all I've got. Is my defender really that bad that I could justify another 90k (or probably more the way they are hiking). My biggest problem is what I have now does what I need and has done for the last 18 years.

I don't think I'd need to spend 150k on a Toyota to get what I need (although if the company was paying with instant asset write off I'm sure there would be people to take your money). I think there are a number of options I could go for lots less money. For me it's about the places I can go more than about having a cool car (I really don't care anymore).

Anyway car pictured I think will be doing two more desert crossings later in the year (I think that will make just 8 of the simpson, excluding the other deserts). Hopefully I'll see a Grenadier or two out there.

bigleonski · Jul 21, 2023

DesertGecko said:
Time will tell. I just can't see who's going to buy them at that price. They are too expensive for the utility market and not luxurious enough for the luxury market. At this point I can see lots of capability gaps around weights and fuel capacities. There is lots of competition that is lots cheaper. I was prepare to pay over the odds for a defender like replacement. But now we're talking silly money.

I can only see them being a niche player. Whether that will be enough to support their dealer and support network is to be seen. When I bought my defender they were only selling a few hundred a year. But it was ok as LR had many other cars to support the brand. Anyway - I hope they succeed.

All power to you mate. You make the call that works for you. At today’s prices I’d be out as well. And I’d guess many many on here would also be out.
I hope you end up with whatever works best for your needs. Your current defender, or something else down the track.

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On the Grenadier Fence in Brisbane

DaveB

DesertGecko

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Davman

Sam

AnD3rew

Inch deep and a mile wide.

DesertGecko

DesertGecko

OzGrenny

TheDocAUS

AnD3rew

Inch deep and a mile wide.

DaveB

2024 Nissan Patrol Warrior officially detailed - carsales.com.au

Sam

AnD3rew

Inch deep and a mile wide.

2024 Nissan Patrol Warrior officially detailed - carsales.com.au

Solmanic

AnD3rew

Inch deep and a mile wide.

Sam

TheDocAUS

DaveB

DesertGecko

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bigleonski

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