Diff locks or not?

Wayneos said:

The video doesn't show what he's doing at the 34:24 min mark, and he refers to the CD being open or closed in LO. So I assume he's LOCKING and UNLOCKING the CD on the move.

Then at 34:44 slows to a stop (or almost stop), puts it in N and changes from LO back to HI

View: https://youtu.be/9Wbr_UCfZcs?t=2004

View: https://youtu.be/9Wbr_UCfZcs?list=LL&t=2020

Click to expand...

He was driving 25-27 km/hr when he swapped between "open/closed" = unlocked/locked centre diff!

bigleonski said:

Have you ever driven a constant 4wd in sand Dave. The only time the centre diff is locked is when it starts to get a lot soft, otherwise it's just like driving on the road in a constant 4wd (like the IG). For example on a week long trip to Fraser Island traveling the entire island I reckon I'll have the cruiser centre diff locked for about half an hour tops - across the cuttings and across Ngkala Rocks. Maybe longer on some of the inland tracks. Even most cuttings are done without the CD locked, but there are times when it's a good idea to engage it if it's looking a bit soft up ahead or the inland tracks get a bit gnarly. If you have to stop to do that I can imagine there are times when that could get messy.

Another example would be on an outback road that has had some rain where you are traveling without the CDL and come across a muddy or wet section and you want to engage the CDL to give you a bit more stability or in case it got a bit soft.

Click to expand...

Yes I agree with you on Fraser but you always know you are about to do those sections and you often have to wait for the other 200 muppets who haven't aired down, don't have suitable vehicles or skills.
As for the mud on a country road, yeah, I will give you that one.

DenisM said:

He was driving 25-27 km/hr when he swapped between "open/closed" = unlocked/locked centre diff!

Click to expand...

No point having teeth if you are not going to clean them.
I guess like all non synchro boxes you can slam change gears

I did ask one of the Ineos guys at the recent Hanging Rock drive event in Melbourne, and he confirmed that you can lock and unlock the centre differential without having to put the gearbox into neutral.

Having experience with constant 4WD Land Rovers for more than 20 years, including rebuilding transfer cases, if the setup is similar, then you shouldn't need to even get off the power to lock or unlock the centre differential (provided you do not have any wheels spinning). With the Land Rovers, when you push the lever across to lock or unlock the centre differential, all that you are doing is applying pressure to a spring that pushes against the selector fork for the differential lock. The differential is not locked until the teeth on the locking ring line up with the teeth on the front output shaft, which is when the spring will push the locking ring across locking the front output shaft to the centre differential. If you are driving on a straight road with no wheel speed differences, it will not lock until you have some difference in axle speed, like turning a corner, which could be long after you have pushed the lever.

This video shows the front output housing of a Land Rover LT230 transfer case and what happens inside when locking and unlocking the centre differential:

As for when to lock the centre differential, I have always locked it as soon as I have left the bitumen and then unlocked it when I'm just about to return to it. As others have said, the centre differential is not designed to differentiate axle speeds when wheels are spinning.

cmurray said:

I did ask one of the Ineos guys at the recent Hanging Rock drive event in Melbourne, and he confirmed that you can lock and unlock the centre differential without having to put the gearbox into neutral.

Having experience with constant 4WD Land Rovers for more than 20 years, including rebuilding transfer cases, if the setup is similar, then you shouldn't need to even get off the power to lock or unlock the centre differential (provided you do not have any wheels spinning). With the Land Rovers, when you push the lever across to lock or unlock the centre differential, all that you are doing is applying pressure to a spring that pushes against the selector fork for the differential lock. The differential is not locked until the teeth on the locking ring line up with the teeth on the front output shaft, which is when the spring will push the locking ring across locking the front output shaft to the centre differential. If you are driving on a straight road with no wheel speed differences, it will not lock until you have some difference in axle speed, like turning a corner, which could be long after you have pushed the lever.

This video shows the front output housing of a Land Rover LT230 transfer case and what happens inside when locking and unlocking the centre differential:

As for when to lock the centre differential, I have always locked it as soon as I have left the bitumen and then unlocked it when I'm just about to return to it. As others have said, the centre differential is not designed to differentiate axle speeds when wheels are spinning.

Click to expand...

Possibly they are saying stop and engage neutral just to make sure no wheels are spinning.
More of a procedure or technique than a necessity

cmurray said:

I did ask one of the Ineos guys at the recent Hanging Rock drive event in Melbourne, and he confirmed that you can lock and unlock the centre differential without having to put the gearbox into neutral.

Having experience with constant 4WD Land Rovers for more than 20 years, including rebuilding transfer cases, if the setup is similar, then you shouldn't need to even get off the power to lock or unlock the centre differential (provided you do not have any wheels spinning). With the Land Rovers, when you push the lever across to lock or unlock the centre differential, all that you are doing is applying pressure to a spring that pushes against the selector fork for the differential lock. The differential is not locked until the teeth on the locking ring line up with the teeth on the front output shaft, which is when the spring will push the locking ring across locking the front output shaft to the centre differential. If you are driving on a straight road with no wheel speed differences, it will not lock until you have some difference in axle speed, like turning a corner, which could be long after you have pushed the lever.

This video shows the front output housing of a Land Rover LT230 transfer case and what happens inside when locking and unlocking the centre differential:

As for when to lock the centre differential, I have always locked it as soon as I have left the bitumen and then unlocked it when I'm just about to return to it. As others have said, the centre differential is not designed to differentiate axle speeds when wheels are spinning.

Click to expand...

That’s great info, thank you. My intuitive reluctance to lock without depressing the clutch can now take a back seat to new info!
not sure what you think, but the old defender transfer case selector know does seem to be a little more fluid than the grenadier one, maybe the cables will free up a little over time, or be improved after pto2. Its just a slightly more awkward reach/lift/shift movement. No big issue though.

I configured my Fieldmaster without f/r diffs option. To say 'offroading' means a large range of situations. It is like saying 'road'. Road can mean spirited driving in a Porsche 911 GT3 or commuting in a Ford Fiesta. By my Defender I drive offroad quite often in many situations in which a regular car shoud be stopped. Unpaved trials with huge potholes, deep water, rarely sand and mud. I seldom need to block the diff. But offroad can mean also the kind of situation more typical of sport or adventure than of working. A few days ago I understood that, having chosen the K02s, adding the f/r diffs would have cost only 1500 euros more. I'm sure that in my type of offroad I would have almost never used them, but they would have made my Grenadier more complete. Since the car was practically already in production, it was no longer possible for me, but honestly, it doesn't seem like a big problem, maybe just less weight...

To said:

Are there any photos or videos where exactly this is pictured with the plates? As far as I know, no manufacturer makes corresponding user specifications.

Click to expand...

I saw other pictures already. However...I add mine, too.

This is the whole arrangement and how it could look like. This is the centre open differential on a Defender (maybe I have choosen the wrong gears out of my old-bad-parts-box, but to explain how it works, it's maybe fine).



This are the thin metal plates which separate the housing from the gears:



When the helical gears get under pressure they tend to move apart from each other and thereby pressing hard against these plates (what is normal and these plates are considered to be wear parts). By locking the differential you can extend their life...otherwise you can end up with that damage pretty fast. First the thin plate is gone and then the gears mil into the housing. An indicator that you need to replace theses plates is a play between load changes and small chips of that metal when changing oil.



Cheers
AWo

AWo said:

I saw other pictures already. However...I add mine, too.

This is the whole arrangement and how it could look like. This is the centre open differential on a Defender (maybe I have choosen the wrong gears out of my old-bad-parts-box, but to explain how it works, it's maybe fine).

View attachment 7805313

This are the thin metal plates which separate the housing from the gears:

View attachment 7805314

When the helical gears get under pressure they tend to move apart from each other and thereby pressing hard against these plates (what is normal and these plates are considered to be wear parts). By locking the differential you can extend their life...otherwise you can end up with that damage pretty fast. First the thin plate is gone and then the gears mil into the housing. An indicator that you need to replace theses plates is a play between load changes and small chips of that metal when changing oil.

View attachment 7805315

Cheers
AWo

Click to expand...

Not sure what the internals on the Grenadier are but here is the complete engine, gearbox and tremec transfer box

Arkaig said:

View attachment 7805093

View attachment 7805094

Click to expand...

Just a thought … This video was removed from the Grenadier website. Could that have been because of some inaccuracies?

Michael H. said:

Just a thought … This video was removed from the Grenadier website. Could that have been because of some inaccuracies?

Click to expand...

Yes I picked a few errors or conflicts in this

James said:

maybe the cables will free up a little over time, or be improved after pto2. Its just a slightly more awkward reach/lift/shift movement. No big issue though.

Click to expand...

I've not seen anything that confirms whether they will be cables or rods?

DCPU said:

I've not seen anything that confirms whether they will be cables or rods?

Click to expand...

They are rods i believe

Imagine not being able to lock the centre diff on the move, my 23 year old D2 can. It is useful and very convenient.

Interesting looking back at folks’ speculation prior to purchase. Six months down the road with my Trialmaster may give you some insight.

I thought initially this was a ”keeper”. However, persistent faults and reliability issues are giving me doubts now. The last straw was diff lock failure.

The electronic traction control is pants. I’m used to Shoguns and Discos where that’s almost all there is, but it works. But fair enough, the car has mechanical lockers. They are the ultimate tool. I need the IG‘s front and back lockers, in addition to the centre, frequently in off road mud in Scotland. They wouldn’t engage last week (red warnings, lots of bongs to add to my tension). It was in a really difficult and tight spot with a risk of side damage against gateways and walls, and even rescue was going to be a problem. I managed, but could have done without the drama, and I paid a lot of money to avoid that!

looking at YouTube videos of early off-road tests (try L2S-FBC, really well done) the front and rear lockers were failing to engage even then. Clearly, two software updates my car has had weren’t the answer. When the snow melts the car is going in yet again for service.

Don't have the roof openings, they often leak and are hot in summer.
I wish I’d ordered leather, it’s less sweaty than plastic.
Side steps should be standard fitments- my wife hurt herself falling out of the car whilst alighting.

Dr. John said:

Interesting looking back at folks’ speculation prior to purchase. Six months down the road with my Trialmaster may give you some insight.

I thought initially this was a ”keeper”. However, persistent faults and reliability issues are giving me doubts now. The last straw was diff lock failure.

The electronic traction control is pants. I’m used to Shoguns and Discos where that’s almost all there is, but it works. But fair enough, the car has mechanical lockers. They are the ultimate tool. I need the IG‘s front and back lockers, in addition to the centre, frequently in off road mud in Scotland. They wouldn’t engage last week (red warnings, lots of bongs to add to my tension). It was in a really difficult and tight spot with a risk of side damage against gateways and walls, and even rescue was going to be a problem. I managed, but could have done without the drama, and I paid a lot of money to avoid that!

looking at YouTube videos of early off-road tests (try L2S-FBC, really well done) the front and rear lockers were failing to engage even then. Clearly, two software updates my car has had weren’t the answer. When the snow melts the car is going in yet again for service.

Don't have the roof openings, they often leak and are hot in summer.
I wish I’d ordered leather, it’s less sweaty than plastic.
Side steps should be standard fitments- my wife hurt herself falling out of the car whilst alighting.

Click to expand...

I have even more problems with mine, don't engage, red lights etc, even tells me they are engaged when they are not!
Don't get me started on the low range box, almost impossible to use on mine and it does have a new transfer box installed!

When you need lockers to engage you really need them otherwise it's going to be a long and perhaps expensive day out. I can emphasise with your frustrations. Mine have worked ok so far but I'm still looking for a work around of the off-road mode which requires to be stationary and with parking brake on - pita!

Unfortunately, these failures and frustrations with the diff-lockers were somewhat predictable. When Ineos first announced that they were going with Eaton e-lockers I was disappointed, and posted about it on this forum. I made the argument that (1) a manual locker was more immediate to engage, (2) more reliable, and (3) more in the ethos of the Grenadier. If Ineos had gone with a Dana style axle, there would have been a manual locker available from Ox Lockers: https://ox-usa.com/product-category/1-lockers/

As an aside, if Ineos had gone with a Dana style axle, there would have been no end of aftermarket support - unlike the Carraro axles, about which we still know relatively little, and for which there appear to be no alternate gears. The Dana style axles generally have ball joints instead of kingpins, which have a smaller turning radius (which would resolve a common complaint with the Gren), you can get super-strong ball joints for Dana axles that have a lifetime warranty; ball joints will also articulate a little more than a kingpin knuckle. Another upgrade to Dana axles are RCV axle shafts that are incredibly strong both when driving straight but also when at full-lock; in addition, RCV shafts do not bind when turning in 4-wheel drive on a high-traction surface (e.g. when you have the center diff locked while driving in snow, and then you pull into a parking lot and need to maneuver on grippy snow), Reid Racing Knuckles (nice for a Dana 44, but unnecessary for a Dana 60), etc.

While you can order an Ox Locker that is electronic, most Ox Lockers being purchased are manual, with a lever in the cab that is connected via cable to the locking mechanism in the differential. I had them in my JK, and they are super robust and reliable. Zero electronics and no flashing lights while you try - and fail - to lock-up.

Shifter diagram:

Two Ox shifters in a Jeep JK:


If designers planned on Ox Lockers, they could be much better integrated into the cabin, so that it would look a little less agricultural (for folks coming from the SUV world).

I know that this post will not be popular, but it is worth thinking about. If the Grenadier is successful, maybe there is a chance that they build a stripped-down version in the future with manual everything. I suppose that is a pipe-dream, given US and EU regulations, but the Gren itself was once a pipe dream, and Sir Jim pushed through a vehicle that most people thought would never be made. A vehicle that - in its current state - delivers more of the "old world" 4x4 than most people believed possible.

I don't disagree that something more manual would make more sense with respect to the INEOS ethos. Likewise, it's understandable why they did not; what's not understandable though it why they went with the activation and deactivation method they did. Old school trucks like the Hi Lux and 70 series either have a "normal" on-off button or knob that doesn't require any special sequence to activate or deactivate.

With respect to Dana - according to the data I could dig up, Jeep sold over 500 million Wranglers in the US and about 220 million Gladiators over the past three years - so let's just say around 750,000 total units. That means that over the last three years, Jeep has purchased no less than 1.5 million axles from Dana. Add to that the hundreds of thousands of RAM products that use Danas too and you could triple, maybe quadruple that number. That said, Stu and I have discussed this and have come to think that perhaps Jeep suggested to Dana to not sell axles to INEOS. I do not know this for a fact and neither Stu or I have any insider information, but it's a pretty convincing theory.

paulN186 said:

[QUOTE username=G-Man userid=8989993 postid=1332749110]I'm ashamed to say I specced the 'Rough Pack' purely for future resale value. I figured that given the target market for this vehicle, it was probably a bigger selling point than the leather seat option which was a similar price. Its a vehicle sold on capability and reliability, so pretty much a no-brainer.

Plus I hate it when I buy a vehicle and there are loads of buttons on the dash blanked off with fixed dummy buttons - it just shouts compromise and is a permanent reminder that I missed out on some tasty options. And the Grenadier has a lot of really chunky buttons ?

Click to expand...

ha ha i might do the same! although i don't know if i really want the full off road tyres the Bridgestone all terrain might be a better option for me but the off road tyres come free with the rough pack compared to buying the diffs on their own so probably go with them also, did you go for the high load electrics also? damn it gets expensive eh! lol!
[/QUOTE]

Spec the Diff Locks alone, and keep the standard Bridgestone tires. That’s what I did. The ‘Stones are great tires and will serve their purpose until I get taller mud tires.