Diff locks or not?

[MTNDOG]

How was maths for you at school?

I'm almost as gooder at grammer and speling than maths.

 

[MTNDOG]

Kidding aside, I have an F150 4WD with automatic transfer case. Last round of snow and ice we had, I of course needed to make sure the rear locker still worked. It works in 2wd, 4 high, 4 low, and 4 auto. It engages almost immediately and disengages just as quick, moving or stopped. I wonder why the Ineos has to be so finicky.

 

[DaveB]

Kidding aside, I have an F150 4WD with automatic transfer case. Last round of snow and ice we had, I of course needed to make sure the rear locker still worked. It works in 2wd, 4 high, 4 low, and 4 auto. It engages almost immediately and disengages just as quick, moving or stopped. I wonder why the Ineos has to be so finicky.

People are mistaking the engaging and disengaging with the indicator lights.
The diffs lock and unlock straight away once you are moving. But the lights don't go out until it detects a speed difference between th two wheels on the same hub.
So
Centre diff has to be in low range and locked
Push button to lock rear diff
Rear diff engages and will lock once you go about 1 wheel rotation.
Push button for front diff lock
Front diff engages and will lock once you go about 1 wheel rotation, provided centre and rear are locked and the front wheels are not travelling at different speeds.
When you want to unlock them it is easiest to just unlock the rear or centre.
The lights will only go out when the wheels are travelling at different speeds so just ignore them.

 

[globalgregors]

Top tip for engaging the low ratio: the central diff needs to be hot. It will not engage low/lock immediately on engine startup.

Respectfully suggest you keep the pressure up on your agent.
My vehicle snicks in smoothly in all conditions/temperatures.

 

[DaveB]

Respectfully suggest you keep the pressure up on your agent.
My vehicle snicks in smoothly in all conditions/temperatures.

Mine wouldn't go in at first but I was being too gentle
Now it goes in nicely although at times i have to roll forward or backward a short distance to let the teeth mesh then it slots in easily.

 

[RickTok]

Lockers. Resale if no other reason.

 

[DaveB]

Lockers. Resale if no other reason.

You can also fall back on the good old reason.
It is better to have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.

 

[GrenX]

The Grenadier is useless without lockers unless ur just buying as some kinda fashion item. It has poor traction control so locker are a must otherwise buy another car like a 300 series or a new defender if u want something a bit softer.

 

[255/85]

The Grenadier is useless without lockers unless ur just buying as some kinda fashion item. It has poor traction control so locker are a must otherwise buy another car like a 300 series or a new defender if u want something a bit softer.

Most old school 4X4 vehicles didn't come with lockers and people somehow got through a lot of stuff back in the day. They've become de rigueur now but there weren't a lot of Grenadiers with them in the early test drives and they did pretty well.

It really depends on your intended usage. Chains and a good set of traction boards may be enough for some people.

 

[anand]

Most old school 4X4 vehicles didn't come with lockers and people somehow got through a lot of stuff back in the day. They've become de rigueur now but there weren't a lot of Grenadiers with them in the early test drives and they did pretty well.

It really depends on your intended usage. Chains and a good set of traction boards may be enough for some people.

I think for 90% of the customers that I rode with on the PTO2 tour, for their intended use case, I recommended against spending the money on lockers

 

[255/85]

I think for 90% of the customers that I rode with on the PTO2 tour, for their intended use case, I recommended against spending the money on lockers

I probably think we could have done without them. Not so the Mrs.

 

[Mountain4x4]

I have driven for weeks with lockers constantly on. I guess I live in a different world. Then again, I am old and I lock both diffs if I see a pot hole.

 

[DaveB]

The Grenadier is useless without lockers unless ur just buying as some kinda fashion item. It has poor traction control so locker are a must otherwise buy another car like a 300 series or a new defender if u want something a bit softer.

I drove the test track in Perth which was sand, wet grass and small humps and gullies.
No diflocks except centre lock and it went extremely well.
I then drove the track at Mt Tamborine in Queensland, which had a couple of creek crossings and some slippery hills, both up and down.
Again only centre lock and no problems at all.
I admit I haven't done any serious rock crawling or mud plugging in my Grenadier but haven't needed the lockers yet.
i used them but didn't need them.
Not 100% sure but don't think any of my Suzuki's or hilux had traction control back in the 80's. Or lockers.

 

[DaveB]

I think for 90% of the customers that I rode with on the PTO2 tour, for their intended use case, I recommended against spending the money on lockers

Keep in mind that the axles/diffs are different if ordered with or without factory lockers.
Makes it expensive if you change your mind later.

 

[anand]

Keep in mind that the axles/diffs are different if ordered with or without factory lockers.
Makes it expensive if you change your mind later.

Absolutely, but at some point aftermarket options will become available for those that want to add them (most likely second or third owners if I were guessing)

 

[stickshifter]

Keep in mind that the axles/diffs are different if ordered with or without factory lockers.
Makes it expensive if you change your mind later.

I love the Grenadier but this is one of my main gripes with it. The decision to go with Carraro axles has taken away consumer choice. At least in the immediate future, the Eaton e-lockers are the only lockers available, and 4.10 gears are the only gears available.

A Dana style axle would have given us a choice of lockers and a choice of gears.

Locker Options:

1 - Ox Lockers (manually operated with a lever connected to diff via cable) - super strong, instant activation, positive locking with no unlocking when changing from drive to reverse, very reliable

2 - ARB Lockers (air lockers powered by an onboard air compressor) - super strong, instant activation, positive locking with no unlocking when changing from drive to reverse, moderately reliable

3 - Eaton E-Locker (electric activation, using a magnetic drag clutch to activate locker) - not as strong as 1 & 2, inconsistent activation, briefly disengage when shifting between drive and reverse, moderately reliable

4 - Auburn Gear ECTED Max

Gear Options: 4.10, 4.56, 4.88, 5.13, 5.38

 

[DaveB]

Absolutely, but at some point aftermarket options will become available for those that want to add them (most likely second or third owners if I were guessing)

When I selected them they were part of the rough pack and it was pretty cheap. I think it was around AUD$2,700 or USD$1,800 which included the diff locks and the K02 tyres
The tyres were about AUD$850 by themselves so that made the diff locks about AUD$1,850 which is fairly cheap.

 

[DaveB]

I love the Grenadier but this is one of my main gripes with it. The decision to go with Carraro axles has taken away consumer choice. At least in the immediate future, the Eaton e-lockers are the only lockers available, and 4.10 gears are the only gears available.

A Dana style axle would have given us a choice of lockers and a choice of gears.

Locker Options:

1 - Ox Lockers (manually operated with a lever connected to diff via cable) - super strong, instant activation, positive locking with no unlocking when changing from drive to reverse, very reliable

2 - ARB Lockers (air lockers powered by an onboard air compressor) - super strong, instant activation, positive locking with no unlocking when changing from drive to reverse, moderately reliable

3 - Eaton E-Locker (electric activation, using a magnetic drag clutch to activate locker) - not as strong as 1 & 2, inconsistent activation, briefly disengage when shifting between drive and reverse, moderately reliable

4 - Auburn Gear ECTED Max

Gear Options: 4.10, 4.56, 4.88, 5.13, 5.38

Of course you are relating this to USA, don't forget this vehicle is sold all over the world.
I don't think Dana axles are as readily available in Europe as they are in USA.
They are reasonably common here in Australia but not huge here. (except in old modified 4WD's)
Remember that Jeeps are not very common outside US.
ARB lockers are probably the most common in Australia as ARB started in Australia but also the Eaton lockers I think started in Australia with Harrop. so also pretty common.
Ox lockers are not common here and I thought they were designed for off road specialty vehicles not onroad 4wds. I could be wrong.
I think the Grenadier is designed more as an Overland Tourer, tow vehicle, or work vehicle and not as a rock crawler.
I haven't seen a lot of users wanting lower gearing however we also get the diesel which is a very different vehicle to the petrol.
Carraro are used by some of the largest manufacturers of robust vehicles
Carraro products are used in machines by manufacturers: CATERPILLAR, VOLVO, KOMATSU, CASE, NEW HOLLAND, TEREX, FERMEC, GEHL, HIDROMEK, HYDREMA, JLG, LIEBHER, NEUSON, KRAMER, VENIERI, FAI-KOMATSU, CUKUROVA, MATRBO, BOBOOAT, DA DIECI, O/K, PALAZZANI, TAKEUCHI; JOHN DEERE, AGCO, FENDT, SAME, DEUTZ, LAMBORGHINI, CLASS, FORD, McCORMICK, RENAULT, MASSEY FERGUSON, CASE, VALTRA, VALMET, NEW HOLLAND, ZETOR, DEUTZ-FAHR, FARESIN, LINDNER; CESAB, LINDE, STILL, OM, YALE, HYSTER, JUNGHEINRICH, TOYOTA, CATERPILLAR.

 

[anand]

I think the Grenadier is designed more as an Overland Tourer, tow vehicle, or work vehicle and not as a rock crawler.

 

[stickshifter]

Ox lockers are not common here and I thought they were designed for off road specialty vehicles not onroad 4wds. I could be wrong.

Ox Lockers have the same functionality as other lockers - they lock-up the differential; they are just as applicable to general 4x4 use as any other locker. However, because they are manually operated - like the transfer case in the Grenadier - they are more reliable than an e-locker. Another huge benefit to Ox: they engage and disengage immediately - unlike the Eaton e-lockers. A final benefit to the Ox and the ARB lockers is that they do not disengage when shifting between drive and reverse - unlike the Eaton e-locker; when a locker disengages you can lose traction when trying to extricate a vehicle that is stuck using the standard forward/reverse technique.

I think the Grenadier is designed more as an Overland Tourer, tow vehicle, or work vehicle and not as a rock crawler.

Let's look at what Ineos told us they designed the Grenadier for: "INEOS Automotive’s new off-roader will have the spirit and straightforward engineering of the old 4x4s but with a massive leap forward in reliability. It will appeal to explorers, farmers and off-road enthusiasts as well as city dwellers seeking adventure." Source: https://www.ineos.com/news/shared-n...er-reaches-new-milestone-with-website-launch/

If the Grenadier was primarily designed as an Overland Tourer, why is the fuel tank so small? Why does the back end sag when under full-capacity, such that the folk who are really doing Overland Touring are looking for alternate springs? The reality is that they tried to make a vehicle that does it all: it has enough luxury to appeal to the "city dwellers seeking adventure", it has many features that make it a great choice for "explorers" (what you are referring to as "overland touring"), but it can also be spec'd with rock sliders for the "off-road enthusiasts" (all quotations coming from the Ineos mission statement). Both Sir Jim and the CEO Dirk Heilmann, repeatedly state that there goal is to build a "world class 4x4" (see: source listed above). They intentionally cast the net wide. In fact, they make a direct appeal to the rock crawling crowd on page 17 of the US brochure:

Of course you are relating this to USA, don't forget this vehicle is sold all over the world.

Carraro are used by some of the largest manufacturers of robust vehicles
Carraro products are used in machines by manufacturers: CATERPILLAR, VOLVO, KOMATSU, CASE, NEW HOLLAND, TEREX, FERMEC, GEHL, HIDROMEK, HYDREMA, JLG, LIEBHER, NEUSON, KRAMER, VENIERI, FAI-KOMATSU, CUKUROVA, MATRBO, BOBOOAT, DA DIECI, O/K, PALAZZANI, TAKEUCHI; JOHN DEERE, AGCO, FENDT, SAME, DEUTZ, LAMBORGHINI, CLASS, FORD, McCORMICK, RENAULT, MASSEY FERGUSON, CASE, VALTRA, VALMET, NEW HOLLAND, ZETOR, DEUTZ-FAHR, FARESIN, LINDNER; CESAB, LINDE, STILL, OM, YALE, HYSTER, JUNGHEINRICH, TOYOTA, CATERPILLAR.

Its true, Dana is primarily an American axle, but it is also found in Honda and Isuzu vehicles. But the idea that having Dana axles would pose an obstacle to international customers does not stand up to the reality of the global supply chain. Every part in the Grenadier has a "national" origin, but Grenadier owners will expect to be able to replace or service that part whether they live in the country that produced the part, or on the other side of the planet.

Yes, Carraro makes axles for tractors and other agricultural vehicles. It is a widely used axle and has a great reputation. But how does that actually benefit the Grenadier owner when it comes to practical service? If you are traveling globally (or within the U.S.) this does not increase the availability of parts for the Carraro axle found in the Grenadier - which is a one-off. My local Caterpillar dealer sells tractors with Carraro axles, but does not stock the Carraro axle found in the Grenadier. So you would need to have a part shipped from Italy to wherever you are. This would even be true in Europe. There is no auto shop in London stocking parts for the Carraro axle in the Grenadier. So I see no advantage to Carraro over Dana when it comes time to servicing your axles.

But the key point I made in the previous post you have not addressed at all: the Dana axle offer choice - choice of four different lockers (including Eaton if you want to say with them), and a choice between five different gear sets. At present, the Carraro axles offer no choice of lockers, and no choice of gears. Unlike the Carraro axles, the Dana axles would provide options. The great thing about an "option" is that one can choose to stay stock (Eaton locker, 4:10 gears), or one can choose something different - depending on vehicle use. Already we see a clamor for choice when it comes to springs: some people are choosing to remain stock, others are choosing to install a taller spring.