Steering- example- 70 series Landcruiser

stickshifter · Feb 14, 2023

DaveB said:
You can't buy them in Australia either.
Order books are closed and they are playing the old market price game.
So you ay have ordered a certain spec and price vehicle, but when it gets time to accept delivery they can change the features and vary the pricing to market price, which could be double what you ordered it at.
The GXL Dual cab chassis is most common choice to start from.
As the name suggests that doesn't include the tray on the back.
That is an optional extra
The crash test rating runs out at the end of the year and to get around it they have changed the load rating from 3500to 3510 kgs so it is now a light truck. Grenadier is 3550 kgs so it is also a light truck
Then you have to do after market mods before first registration if you want to use it seriously.
When they decided to put the V8 in it they couldn't get it in, so they widened the front axle by 100mm/4", but they left the rear axle unchanged.
It doesn't come with sound deadening so you have to add that yourself.
6" panel doesn't come with apple carplay or android and only has 2 speakers so it all needs to be replaced.
Vast majority are purchased by mining companies who spend about an extra $100K modifying them and they last 2-3 years

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Ugh, that's too bad. I thought you were just going to keep getting the older version of the 70 series - which has its shortcomings for sure, but gives buyers options.

Krabby · Feb 14, 2023

DaveB said:
You can't buy them in Australia either.
Order books are closed and they are playing the old market price game.
So you ay have ordered a certain spec and price vehicle, but when it gets time to accept delivery they can change the features and vary the pricing to market price, which could be double what you ordered it at.
The GXL Dual cab chassis is most common choice to start from.
As the name suggests that doesn't include the tray on the back.
That is an optional extra
The crash test rating runs out at the end of the year and to get around it they have changed the load rating from 3500to 3510 kgs so it is now a light truck. Grenadier is 3550 kgs so it is also a light truck
Then you have to do after market mods before first registration if you want to use it seriously.
When they decided to put the V8 in it they couldn't get it in, so they widened the front axle by 100mm/4", but they left the rear axle unchanged.
It doesn't come with sound deadening so you have to add that yourself.
6" panel doesn't come with apple carplay or android and only has 2 speakers so it all needs to be replaced.
Vast majority are purchased by mining companies who spend about an extra $100K modifying them and they last 2-3 years

View attachment 7803250

View attachment 7803248
View attachment 7803249

The mismatched track seems like such a dumb idea. I trust aftermarket solutions exist, but how did an upper level engineer sign off on that?

DaveB · Feb 14, 2023

stickshifter said:
Ugh, that's too bad. I thought you were just going to keep getting the older version of the 70 series - which has its shortcomings for sure, but gives buyers options.

We are getting the old one
Hasn't changed in 20 years

stickshifter · Feb 14, 2023

Krabby said:
The mismatched track seems like such a dumb idea. I trust aftermarket solutions exist, but how did an upper level engineer sign off on that?

There are different aftermarket solutions, ranging in price from something simple like wheel spacers to something expensive like swapping out the axle. The origin has to do with changes made from one generation to the next: I believe they widened the front axle to accommodate a larger engine, but did not widen the rear axle to save money. It was something like that, but I'm not in Aus, so I don't pay too much attention.

Pfk · Feb 14, 2023

stickshifter said:
What is the sticker price on a stock 70-series ute? Is it a whole lot different from the proposed price for the Grenadier ute? Just curious, as I can't buy either here in the U.S.

hi stickshifter,
Sharing the pricing I found for the LC70 when I was shopping a while back..
The 70 LC is a very popular and affordable car in the Middle East (gulf countries) and I see it quite often in the uae and it is a popular export vehicle esp for mining countries and fleet vehicles from the uae markets to row (rest of world), the pick up version of the LC70 is mainly used for farming here and for oilfield sectors. Iv had the pleasure of trying a friends in the dunes, it is one of the nicest vehicles to Offroad with along with the Nissan patrol safari (also affordable) , for desert terrain and gravel, rocky terrain common here. The LC 70 prices start from US$35k basic to $45k-50k full option (yet still very basic if compared to modern vehicles). The Nissan patrol safari which is my personal favorite Offroader and is an iconic Offroad 4x4 vehicle starts at about the same pricing but they both consume a ridiculous amount of petrol. I’m not sure about the diesel consumption as those are mainly company cars.
LC70 comes in only manual option here
To add on steering topic: both of these cars I believe have the same type recirculating ball, not fun to ride on road but not enough to stop people from buying them either, like Emax said, it becomes habit and manageable

globalgregors · Feb 14, 2023

stickshifter said:
There are different aftermarket solutions, ranging in price from something simple like wheel spacers to something expensive like swapping out the axle. The origin has to do with changes made from one generation to the next: I believe they widened the front axle to accommodate a larger engine, but did not widen the rear axle to save money. It was something like that, but I'm not in Aus, so I don't pay too much attention.

Yes, correct -they couldn’t widen the rear track without redesigning the body (picture the TroopCarrier), on a manufacturing line that had long ago paid for itself.
To be fair, it’s generally only an issue on soft surfaces so for the fleet sales etc not a showstopper.

Steve.B · Feb 15, 2023

globalgregors said:
Yes, correct -they couldn’t widen the rear track without redesigning the body (picture the TroopCarrier), on a manufacturing line that had long ago paid for itself.
To be fair, it’s generally only an issue on soft surfaces so for the fleet sales etc not a showstopper.

The 79 is mainly for soft surfaces.
The discovery 2 I had for many years steering improved greatly when I put in a heavy duty track rod, but from my observations the ineos has a beefy track rod standard.
I worked for telstra for many years, and later I was president of the CWU SA/NT branch ( union ). Telstra trialled several 79s, but they had to put a 70kmh soft surface speed limit on them due to stability issues, plus the techs needed to take oil with them due to excessive oil consumption of the V8 diesel.
Northern Territory's Katherine Telstra manager of the 90s and2000s Stubsey was telling me of the different vehicle fleets they had used in the past after I asked him why they weren't using any Land Cruisers he said they had, but their chassis were cracking just behind the cab, and their front differentials were breaking, he said it got to the point where Toyota sent out several enginers to go as passengers to the remote communities. These are extremely remote, and the tracks extremely rough. When the enginers returned they said Toyota's aren't designed for that kind of extreme work, and that was it. Stubsey said they had no such issues with leaf sprung GQ Patrol Ute's, and with the LR Defenders once they put the military spec differentials in the LR Defender. The Ineos is in a different HD league from any of those 3 vehicles.

MrMike · Feb 15, 2023

Stu_Barnes said:
Thanks for volunteering, @MrMike send me the video to the admin@theineosforum.com address and I'll get it uploaded to the site.

Hi @Stu_Barnes I unfortunately couldn't send it as the file is to large to send, even compressed @ 38MB

Stu_Barnes · Feb 15, 2023

MrMike said:
Hi @Stu_Barnes I unfortunately couldn't send it as the file is to large to send, even compressed @ 38MB

I’ll email you

Hannes01 · Feb 17, 2023

Test in Germany Auto Motor Sport:

bring the wheels back into the straight-ahead position when exiting a corner. The steering feel is a little better with optional 18-inch tires; the roadworthy Bridgestone all-terrain tires with Grenadier specification weren't available to us on the first test drive

can it be that the 18 inch wheels improve the steering behavior significantly?

bemax · Feb 17, 2023

Hannes01 said:
Test in Germany Auto Motor Sport:

bring the wheels back into the straight-ahead position when exiting a corner. The steering feel is a little better with optional 18-inch tires; the roadworthy Bridgestone all-terrain tires with Grenadier specification weren't available to us on the first test drive

can it be that the 18 inch wheels improve the steering behavior significantly?

The heigher the side wall of a tyre is the less direct is the steering. This is because you need some energy to "bend" the rim within the tyre upon the point the tyre moves in the forced direction. The effect is probably very very small with a car tyre at high pressure. You can see it better for example at a quad tyre with low pressure.

Stu_Barnes · Feb 17, 2023

Here is the steering video, the video is only visible to those with the direct link.

View: https://youtu.be/xEsnVitJX6k

Thanks @MrMike

Hannes01 · Feb 17, 2023

at least the steering wheel goes back on its own

MrMike · Feb 18, 2023

Hannes01 said:
at least the steering wheel goes back on its own

It does have a considerable weight behind it, 3.8T and the steering is quite heavy. While the steering comes back, it does only a certain amount but not to center. I'm interested to see how the IG compares in a month or two.

Boston Boy · Feb 28, 2023

Concerning possibility of wandering steering with solid axles and recirculating ball gear, a friend (who bought the first Land Rover IIA in the Boston area many years ago) reminded me of this: Caster Action.
Caster is the angle of this steering pivot, measured in degrees, when viewed from the side of the vehicle. If the top of the pivot is leaning toward the rear of the car, then the caster is positive, if it is leaning toward the front, it is negative.
If the front wheels are positioned forward of the upper ball joint/strut mount, that positive caster produces a self-aligning torque on the front wheels and tires. This is a fairly complicated engineering concept, but the idea is that positive caster creates a tension that wants to return/keep the front wheels pointed straight ahead while at speed. You experience the benefits of positive caster and self-aligning torque every time the steering wheel naturally “unwinds” back to 12 o’clock when exiting a corner. And without positive caster and the resulting self-aligning torque, the vehicle would be very inclined to wander at highway speeds. (thanks TireBuyer.com).
My friend said his Land Rover was set up with neutral caster in order to make it easy to turn the steering wheel when moving very slowly in dirt or mud. With a positive caster, when you turn the wheel you are actually scrubbing the tire sideways, increasing steering effort. The tradeoff was that the vehicle tended to wander on the highway. The Rover's neutral caster made the steering wheel easy to turn. No scrubbing, but it did wander on the highway.
Since the Grenadier has power steering (and the rover did not), ease of turning the steering wheel at slow speed would seem less important an issue with power steering.
So... can the Grenadier’s alignment be adjusted to add some positive caster so that straight tracking is enhanced as well as re-centering after a turn?

MrMike · Feb 28, 2023

Boston Boy said:
Concerning possibility of wandering steering with solid axles and recirculating ball gear, a friend (who bought the first Land Rover IIA in the Boston area many years ago) reminded me of this: Caster Action.
Caster is the angle of this steering pivot, measured in degrees, when viewed from the side of the vehicle. If the top of the pivot is leaning toward the rear of the car, then the caster is positive, if it is leaning toward the front, it is negative.
If the front wheels are positioned forward of the upper ball joint/strut mount, that positive caster produces a self-aligning torque on the front wheels and tires. This is a fairly complicated engineering concept, but the idea is that positive caster creates a tension that wants to return/keep the front wheels pointed straight ahead while at speed. You experience the benefits of positive caster and self-aligning torque every time the steering wheel naturally “unwinds” back to 12 o’clock when exiting a corner. And without positive caster and the resulting self-aligning torque, the vehicle would be very inclined to wander at highway speeds. (thanks TireBuyer.com).
My friend said his Land Rover was set up with neutral caster in order to make it easy to turn the steering wheel when moving very slowly in dirt or mud. With a positive caster, when you turn the wheel you are actually scrubbing the tire sideways, increasing steering effort. The tradeoff was that the vehicle tended to wander on the highway. The Rover's neutral caster made the steering wheel easy to turn. No scrubbing, but it did wander on the highway.
Since the Grenadier has power steering (and the rover did not), ease of turning the steering wheel at slow speed would seem less important an issue with power steering.
So... can the Grenadier’s alignment be adjusted to add some positive caster so that straight tracking is enhanced as well as re-centering after a turn?

Doing what you suggest has it's issues and I think it was done to LRs that were old and tired to make them steer as straight as possible, if the IG is anything like the 70 series it won't be an issue. There should be no wandering per se. The only problem I had with wandering RB steering was an 80 series that had done 500k klms and the front end was cactus.

curb-optional · Apr 30, 2023

rovie said:
Very good summary. Thank you very much!

what's been your on-road driving experience? having only driven the rack & pinion steering, I have no idea how the recirculating ball will be on the road. where I am, it's s curves, cyclists, and distracted drivers. it is sometimes necessary to swerve quickly to not hit someone; a slow or over-reacting steering system would be a detraction.

rovie · Apr 30, 2023

curb-optional said:
what's been your on-road driving experience? having only driven the rack & pinion steering, I have no idea how the recirculating ball will be on the road. where I am, it's s curves, cyclists, and distracted drivers. it is sometimes necessary to swerve quickly to not hit someone; a slow or over-reacting steering system would be a detraction.

I have also only driven on country roads so far. From my point of view, you have to work with it more. For example, when I overtake a cyclist, the steering doesn't come back as quickly, but I have to countersteer more. Today I was on the road all day with our Disco 4. This steering is more direct for both of us. I'm sure you get used to it quickly, though. So it's not a problem at all from our point of view. But since I change our vehicles more often, we quickly notice the difference. On a straight road, the vehicle runs very smoothly and stably.

MrMike · May 1, 2023

curb-optional said:
what's been your on-road driving experience? having only driven the rack & pinion steering, I have no idea how the recirculating ball will be on the road. where I am, it's s curves, cyclists, and distracted drivers. it is sometimes necessary to swerve quickly to not hit someone; a slow or over-reacting steering system would be a detraction.

Some one said it requires more driver input (like the 70 series), so basically more attention is needed when driving. Which is countering all of what car manufacturers are designing vehicles for now with lane keep/driver attention/auto braking etc etc

Eric · May 1, 2023

MrMike said:
Some one said it requires more driver input (like the 70 series), so basically more attention is needed when driving. Which is countering all of what car manufacturers are designing vehicles for now with lane keep/driver attention/auto braking etc etc

Which is a good thing as my wife says I'm to complacent and inattentive when driving on roads. Having to focus on steering might stop my mind drifting through boredom

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