Workshop Manuals available?

[Wilaspira]

I agree. Dealers want to get the service work. But its so short sited on their part and Ineos' part if they don't make those manuals available. Think about it: If they ship the 8000 preorders to the US, which they are doing currently, how many of those owners are actually going to want to or have the know how, tools, desire, to work on their own truck? Maybe at best 5%? A very small percentage. Remember there is a large segment of people that want this as a pavement princess, which is totally fine and great. Or there are those that want to use it off-road but will let the dealer do all the work anyways because they don't want the hassle. Then there's us hooligans who want to tinker and do it ourselves.

So the dealers are going to get work anyways. Those of us that want the manuals, will find a way after owning this truck long enough to do it ourselves. So all the dealers and Ineos gain by having that mentality, is pissing off a segment of their owners that are truly trying to fulfill Ratcliff's vision for this vehicle. (Unless that vision was all just BS...).

Aside from the service manuals we all want, I find it to comical there is nothing in the manual we all have or anywhere from the factory that even tells us exactly where all the AUX connections that are wired into the truck and switches up top for are located and where those lines terminate... an installed accessory in the truck that was paid for and no documentation in the manual for it... (Unless I missed that part of the manual completely....)

Thank God for all of you, and the information you post for those of you that have owned these longer than us in the States, and specifically finding those AUX locations and posted them on here... and my point exactly. If there is a will there is a way.

We love this truck, its amazing. Mechanically sound thus far, and exceeds expectations on most fronts. We are committed long term to it. Where they have severely dropped the ball is on the easy stuff, IMHO as a manufacturer.
1. Documentation and manuals
2. Programing - safety system features that go on and off whenever - This can get a pass if updates fix a bunch. Thats pretty typical for new vehicles
3. Child rear door locks but no window locks? "Sorry Sport, you can't open the door, but feel free to put down the window and jump out" - Those two go hand in hand. Having one without the other just makes any safety useless.
4. Climate system that runs off a hamster on a wheel (its slow and sporadic. Thats shouldn't be the case with a $80k+ truck.
5. And last but not least - a basic beyond basic feature that all cars have had for the last 100 years - Manual interior door locks...

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I don’t think making manual available as promised will make a meaningful diminution in the servicing work the dealers get and agree not following through on what was intended is inconsistent with the originally stated ethos and unnecessarily irritating to those that bought on that basis. These are individuals who could be willing/unpaid brand ambassadors (and I suspect actually increase sales and consequential service income). Seem short sighted

 

[Logsplitter]

As my grandfather was want to quote when looking for a solution, or facing a challenge:
" you never know your luck in a big city, son!"
Let's wait and see what eventuates as regards owner manuals/ workshop instructions

I agree and get your point. However for those that live a long way from any dealer ,travelling a long way from home or in remote regions the workshop manual would be useful now. For instance if I could have worked out how to take the front bumper off, it would have been far easier when trying to fix the auxiliary radiator for the transfer box back in place once it fell out of it’s fixings. A simple explanation of how to disassemble some parts some would help for a starter.

 

[Krabby]

I agree and get your point. However for those that live a long way from any dealer ,travelling a long way from home or in remote regions the workshop manual would be useful now. For instance if I could have worked out how to take the front bumper off, it would have been far easier when trying to fix the auxiliary radiator for the transfer box back in place once it fell out of it’s fixings. A simple explanation of how to disassemble some parts some would help for a starter.

EXACTLY - If someone lives hundreds of miles (maybe 4-digits) away from a dealer, basic maitatince stuff from a local quality independent mechanic needs to be a reality. Talk of the Bosch thing is nonexistent so that is seemingly not a legitimate resource for the more remote customers. Perhaps IA bit off more than it could chew in promising all these things, but they did in fact promise them, and as many here have stated, those promises played into their purchasing decision. Depending on how things pan out, and with respected to relevant right to repair laws, I'm sure some lawyer somewhere has his/her wheels already turning.

 

[Krabby]

As a follow up - things may vary from country to country or market to market, but I came across this:

European Union: Right-To-Repair Regulation​

"In order to promote fair competition between independent workshops and authorized dealers, the European Union’s Regulation (EU) 2018/858 requires OEMs to share connected car data with third parties by September 1, 2020. This includes a provision for technical information captured by onboard devices (OBDs) and other vehicle components to be provided to independent vehicle repair shops ensuring equal access to car diagnostic and maintenance data. This regulation fosters the concept of the extended vehicle, which now encompasses the physical vehicle as well as the data it generates.

Consequently OEMs must “ensure that vehicle OBD information, vehicle repair and maintenance information is accessible, pending vehicle owner consent, through websites using a standardized format in a readily accessible and prompt manner, and in a manner which is non-discriminatory compared to the provisions given or access granted to authorized dealers and repairers.” This includes straightforward access to vehicle systems, components, diagnosis information (such as minimum and maximum theoretical values for measurements) and diagnostic trouble codes, including manufacturer specific codes."

 

[Tomdoc]

Given the above, is there scope for a formal request from us as a quorum to Ineos to enquire when they will be complying with this legislation?

 

[Krabby]

Given the above, is there scope for a formal request from us as a quorum to Ineos to enquire when they will be complying with this legislation?

Related and interesting READ

 

[grnamin]

How does Chilton produce their shop manuals? Do the companies eventually provide them with manuals or do they tear down the vehicles themselves and document each step?

 

[carlg007]

EXACTLY - If someone lives hundreds of miles (maybe 4-digits) away from a dealer, basic maitatince stuff from a local quality independent mechanic needs to be a reality. Talk of the Bosch thing is nonexistent so that is seemingly not a legitimate resource for the more remote customers. Perhaps IA bit off more than it could chew in promising all these things, but they did in fact promise them, and as many here have stated, those promises played into their purchasing decision. Depending on how things pan out, and with respected to relevant right to repair laws, I'm sure some lawyer somewhere has his/her wheels already turning.

Krabby, I have been following this very closely and I can not convey how disappointed I am with this situation, my build is scheduled for March 2024 delivery. I am becoming more reluctant about going forward with my Grenadier delivery. I live about 3 plus hours or 200 miles from my "assigned" dealer and having repairs and warranty issues could possibly be overwhelming! I do live in a city that was promised a repair only facility to carry out repairs but that has also gone hush. As much as I would love to own and continue to desire the Grenadier reality and logistics just seem to take its toll. I may pass but have not made my final decision but as of now I am leaning towards a no vote! I would also like to thank you for all of your contributions to this forum along with so amy others!

 

[Logsplitter]

Let’s hope the partnership with Bosch proves a reality. I for one purchased the Grenadier with understanding that there would be a worldwide network of Bosch service stations that would be able to carry out servicing on the vehicle. This is especially pertinent for people who are a long way from an Ineos dealer or for people who are travelling remotely or away from any Ineos service station. In my case I’m hoping to travel extensively in various locations around the world in the Grenadier so need that backup.

 

[Tom109]

I have always owned the workshop manuals for every vehicle I have owned. So I'm counting on Sir Jim to make good on his promise.

 

[Krabby]

Greatest resource of all time for Series owners.

Almost 500 pages of text, diagrams, exploded views, and part numbers. This is essentially what we need!

 

[carlg007]

View attachment 7839271
Greatest resource of all time for Series owners.

Almost 500 pages of text, diagrams, exploded views, and part numbers. This is essentially what we need!

The good old days! I would purchase manuals for ever car that I have kept for more than 6 months!

 

[[ Adam ]]

View attachment 7839271
Greatest resource of all time for Series owners.

Almost 500 pages of text, diagrams, exploded views, and part numbers. This is essentially what we need!

Second only to this beauty, a staple of any Defender owners library.

https://www.landroverweb.com/Pdf-files/Manuals/Land_Rover_Defender_Water_Ingress_Manual.pdf

My personal favorite, applied at the factory.

 

[rovie]

Second only to this beauty, a staple of any Defender owners library.

https://www.landroverweb.com/Pdf-files/Manuals/Land_Rover_Defender_Water_Ingress_Manual.pdf

My personal favorite, applied at the factory.

View attachment 7839275

Yes, I love the old manuals too. Especially the water ingress manual. The engineers at Land Rover really put some thought into it.
No other manufacturer takes the trouble.

 

[Clark Kent]

My layman's read of the EU right to repair law is that it obliges manufacturers to share relevant service and repair data with independent repairers. Unless I misread it, there is no mention of consumers (owners).

The Australian equivalent law specifically excludes 'hobbyist' owners, but doesn't prevent manufacturers from sharing information with consumers if they choose to: 'Individuals who repair their own vehicles as a hobby cannot access service and repair information under this scheme. However, car manufacturers are not prevented from sharing information with consumers.'

So in the EU and Australia, owners should be able to get their Grenadier serviced or repaired at an independent repair workshop, i.e. a business, if that business has purchased the data from Ineos. Special tools is a separate issue.

In Australia, time will tell if Ineos follows through with their marketing promise to make technical manuals available to owners or just comply with the law. Of course they will be under pressure from their agent network (the dealers) and the independent repair industry to withhold information from owners. They're still accountable for their marketing promise and Australia has very strong consumer protection law in this area.

The US is possibly closer to unlocking servicing and repair information for consumers based on the recent FTC and legal actions noted in the article linked by Krabby in post #66.

 

[Baron von Teuchter]

Am I dreaming (quite possible) or was it originally suggested that the parts manual and even exploded diagrams were going to be available in-car, via the touchscreen infotainment system?

 

[Tom109]

View attachment 7839271
Greatest resource of all time for Series owners.

Almost 500 pages of text, diagrams, exploded views, and part numbers. This is essentially what we need!

Add the D1 WSM and ETM, RRC WSM, RV8 manual, and various Defender manuals - and those are only the British ones!

 

[[ Adam ]]

Am I dreaming (quite possible) or was it originally suggested that the parts manual and even exploded diagrams were going to be available in-car, via the touchscreen infotainment system?

This was mentioned very early on as a possible feature.

 

[Jean Mercier]

This was mentioned very early on as a possible feature.

... by forum members, not by Ineos, as far as I know!

 

[Christian]

All expressions of displeasure are understandable, but they do not help us as long as they only take place in this forum.

SO WE HAD ALREADY DISCUSSED AN “OPEN LETTER” TO SIR JIM!

That's why we now need numbers, data, facts and a jointly formulated statement that we can OFFICIALLY send to INEOS. I know from experience that OEMs fear nothing more than when customers turn against them. If necessary, we have to threaten to make the issue public. The press will certainly be interested in how INEOS deals with its early adopters and new customers.

This is called “customer power”!

I know that this is a two-edged sword. Because on the one hand we all want the project to be a success, on the other hand we want to get what was promised to us. Bad press scares off customers that we ALL need for the continued existence of the Grenadier.

And last but not least, I'm now consciously being provocative and going one step further: There is also the possibility of a class action lawsuit!