Workshop manual and the point of the state of the construction of a real, full automotive industry

[alvan]

well the workshop manual has a tiny bit more info
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where in the name of '....holy workshop hacking' are you getting this black magic from?
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The above question, from another thread, let me ask myself something about the present situation...
the screenshots posted highlight the enormous amount of work that went into the Grenadier. There are many examples of cars that appeared out of nowhere, but normally super sports cars produced in small numbers and designed/produced/assisted in an almost artisanal relationship.
With Ineos we are in the presence of an enormous industrial effort from scratch.
Unfortunately, I don't know whether due to the kind of customers we are of a car that we thought of years ago as the product of our desires as enthusiasts, which Ineos tried to satisfy in an initial phase, or for the objective difficulties that Ineos is overcoming a little by little, we are not always aware that in front of us we do not have Mercedes Benz or Ford, but a newborn industrial reality.

That workshop manual, which I saw in person on a manager's laptop, is fantastic, the likes of which I have never seen from other manufacturers and must have cost a huge amount of money and work, so I understand Ineos' possible step backwards in making it available as originally promised.
Unfortunately, these very understandable steps backwards generate frustration and are the product of an initial naive attitude which was expression of the enthusiasm of SJR, but which was difficult to maintain in a company whose objective is not to produce a handful of Pagani Zondas, but tens of thousands of a complex off-road vehicle that has to be as reliable as possible in every environment.
I don't think it's easy for those who approach IG today to understand, or maybe it's easier, but those of us who first followed the process must make an effort to understand the reasons for this 'industrial adolescence'.
BTW, if some hacker could…

 

[Blackbox88]

Damm those are some impressive screenshots!!!
It beats even our work instructions and we build 500 million euro machines haha

so I understand Ineos' possible step backwards in making it available as originally promised.

Do you think Ineos will not release the promised details work manuals ?

 

[Krabby]

Damm those are some impressive screenshots!!!
It beats even our work instructions and we build 500 million euro machines haha


Do you think Ineos will not release the promised details work manuals ?

I can't imagine they will in the sense of here you go and just give full access to everyone for free. It's my understanding that companies like Land Rover "rent" that access - $X for X time. Total speculation on my part, but we're certainly not going to get a green Bible.

 

[Blackbox88]

I can't imagine they will in the sense of here you go and just give full access to everyone for free. It's my understanding that companies like Land Rover "rent" that access - $X for X time. Total speculation on my part, but we're certainly not going to get a green Bible.

But that is not what they promised I am seeing the following text coming back at there own UAE site and different agents:

3D Guides & Repair Manuals
For those of you who are 4X4 obsessed, the Grenadier has been designed and engineered to be easy to work on inside and out - so you can take care of some of the repairs yourself! To help you, INEOS provide online repair manuals, with support from their technical team who are just a call or a click away.

Sources:

Owners Manual – Ineos Grenadier 4 x 4

grenadier4x4.uk

Orangeworks Automotive | Irish Importer of INEOS Grenadier

Contact Orangeworks Automotive for INEOS Grenadier Commercial and Passenger Vehicles Sales in Ireland and Driving For Work Courses and Training Programmes.

sales.orangeworksautomotive.com

Servicing your Ineos Grenadier

The Grenadier is built to last. Tested over 1.8 million kilometres to be tough, strong, and durable. We’re so confident in its capability, we’re offering…

www.halliwelljones.co.uk

Aftersales – INEOS Grenadier

If you are in Dubai or Abu Dhabi and looking for after-sales support, parts, and accessories for the INEOS Grenadier, you're in the right place. Learn about the services available to ensure you have the best support for your vehicle.

uae-ineosgrenadier.com

 

[Jeremy996]

So far as I am concerned they, (Ineos Automotive), are contractually obliged to give me access to the manual as soon as they are able. I am only keeping my powder dry until the end of Qtr1 2024, as that was the last advice I had from Gary Pearson.

I bought the damn thing on the basis I would be able to work on it myself. If they want to charge a time related rental on access, then I am going to go postal as that is not wilderness friendly. Hell, you cannot get a reliable 3G or 4G signal in rural Leicestershire! (I understand that 3G provision is better in Africa as they do not have the copper infrastructure to maintain).

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

Giving everybody free online access to that manual, or the right to purchase a hardcopy, slits the throat of the service department at a high percentage of the AG dealers in North America.
My recommended dealer is hundreds of miles away.
They know they are never going to see my vin again, excluding catastrophic failure of a major component within the warranty period.

 

[Voader - Oudersopzwier]

I predict the dealers will be against it. As also they will demand that all spare parts pass by their hands. Which in my case it will be a Mercedes dealer that will sell me those parts at a price multiplying with factor 5 or even 10.
Did you ever went out there to a Landrover dealership getting something for your defender? And then comparing the price of Britpart or another after market company for that same part? I think we will get in the same situation, but in this case without and alternative from the aftermarket. At least not in the first 5 or 10 years.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

I predict the dealers will be against it. As also they will demand that all spare parts pass by their hands. Which in my case it will be a Mercedes dealer that will sell me those parts at a price multiplying with factor 5 or even 10.
Did you ever went out there to a Landrover dealership getting something for your defender? And then comparing the price of Britpart or another after market company for that same part? I think we will get in the same situation, but in this case without and alternative from the aftermarket. At least not in the first 5 or 10 years.

One of the things I followed on the grenadier, is that there are very few proprietary parts. At least in the areas that wear.
They aren’t really for sale yet in the United States, so the big aftermarket parts companies haven’t published yet.

We will be able to work on our own vehicles without interruptions.

 

[Krabby]

One of the things I followed on the grenadier, is that there are very few proprietary parts. At least in the areas that wear.
They aren’t really for sale yet in the United States, so the big aftermarket parts companies haven’t published yet.

We will be able to work on our own vehicles without interruptions.

That's a great point. I have said this earlier though, that reality could be part of the problem. Since so many components are essentially off-the-shelf (engine, trans, transfer box, brakes, etc.), perhaps IA's hands are tied. If everything was soup-to-nuts IA-branded, there would be no intellectual property toes to step on. Likewise, publishing this stuff could take money out of their suppliers' pockets and that could quickly sour those relationships. How does BMW feel about this? Or ZF? Or...

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

I drive a Jaguar that the drive line is about 90% Ford parts. Getting the right part for the right place is no problem at all. New or used.
Just need the cross reference.

With all of the aficionados here, and other places I suppose, it shouldn’t take long before all of the off-the-shelf parts and their numbers are identified for grenadier owners.

 

[alvan]

And don't forget, European Union fellows, that in the Union, self repearing is allowed by laws just for few elementary interventions.
And I'm not sure that, considering the high complexity of a contemporary vehicle, this is something due just to the pressure of the lobby of professional mechanics, but a reasonable matter of public security and liability.
My desire to get a workshop manual is due to the desire of a deeper knowledge of the project. I have got the workshop manuals or, at least the spare parts manual of many of my cars and motorcycles, but not always they were at public disposition...

 

[Wilaspira]

I also bought expecting (based on information Ineos had provided) to get a workshop and parts manual as part of the deal. I expected this in hard copy (and would prefer) but am prepared to accept in electronic format. If it is not forthcoming on a free basis I think we (and certainly the early adopters who acted in good faith on the basis of Ineos representations which we had no reason to doubt) should club together/coordinate our representations to Ineos. It seems to me owners complaining that they had been misled would not be a good look for Ineos and in light of the pretty high profile Sir JR has I suspect it would be of interest to the media

 

[Arkaig]

The last indications that I received very unofficially were that access to the online manuals would be to actual owners by online registration with timed access in return for a fee, either hourly or 24hr rate, paid online through a portal, somewhat similar to the Erwin system operated by VW, Audi and Skoda, and that the potential timescale was end of Q1 2024. I have no means of verifying such - could be complete garbage, but we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[AnD3rew]

But that is not what they promised I am seeing the following text coming back at there own UAE site and different agents:

3D Guides & Repair Manuals
For those of you who are 4X4 obsessed, the Grenadier has been designed and engineered to be easy to work on inside and out - so you can take care of some of the repairs yourself! To help you, INEOS provide online repair manuals, with support from their technical team who are just a call or a click away.

Sources:

Owners Manual – Ineos Grenadier 4 x 4

grenadier4x4.uk

Orangeworks Automotive | Irish Importer of INEOS Grenadier

Contact Orangeworks Automotive for INEOS Grenadier Commercial and Passenger Vehicles Sales in Ireland and Driving For Work Courses and Training Programmes.

sales.orangeworksautomotive.com

Servicing your Ineos Grenadier

The Grenadier is built to last. Tested over 1.8 million kilometres to be tough, strong, and durable. We’re so confident in its capability, we’re offering…

www.halliwelljones.co.uk

Aftersales – INEOS Grenadier

If you are in Dubai or Abu Dhabi and looking for after-sales support, parts, and accessories for the INEOS Grenadier, you're in the right place. Learn about the services available to ensure you have the best support for your vehicle.

uae-ineosgrenadier.com

I also bought expecting (based on information Ineos had provided) to get a workshop and parts manual as part of the deal. I expected this in hard copy (and would prefer) but am prepared to accept in electronic format. If it is not forthcoming on a free basis I think we (and certainly the early adopters who acted in good faith on the basis of Ineos representations which we had no reason to doubt) should club together/coordinate our representations to Ineos. It seems to me owners complaining that they had been misled would not be a good look for Ineos and in light of the pretty high profile Sir JR has I suspect it would be of interest to the media

Well the way I read the written promises, providing access for a fee is not specifically excluded, it may well be argued that free access was implied, but it was never specifically promised as far as I can see. Providing access for a fee is still providing access. Not that I am thrilled about it, or defending it. Just when you read it, it doesn’t say free anywhere.

 

[255/85]

I have factory manuals for every vehicle I own except one which I have never tried to acquire. Most were bought at the time of the vehicle purchase directly from the dealer. It was no problem to do so. Dealers don't generally care about the very few vehicle owners that pull wrenches on their own car as the number of people who do that is so low. Even though there may be a slightly higher percentage of Grenadier owners who do their own automotive work, most of the buying public will not. The bulk of all Grenadier sales in the USA - and likely most industrialized nations - will be to people who have neither the time, tools, nor inclination to work on their vehicle. The service bays will be busy all the time especially as vehicle numbers grow.

Also, I don't need animated 3D renderings to work on a vehicle as simple as the Grenadier. A basic labelled line drawing, disassembly order, and torque specs will suffice. A printed version is all I can ever imagine needing. Hopefully one will be made available.

 

[James]

I have factory manuals for every vehicle I own except one which I have never tried to acquire. Most were bought at the time of the vehicle purchase directly from the dealer. It was no problem to do so. Dealers don't generally care about the very few vehicle owners that pull wrenches on their own car as the number of people who do that is so low. Even though there may be a slightly higher percentage of Grenadier owners who do their own automotive work, most of the buying public will not. The bulk of all Grenadier sales in the USA - and likely most industrialized nations - will be to people who have neither the time, tools, nor inclination to work on their vehicle. The service bays will be busy all the time especially as vehicle numbers grow.

Also, I don't need animated 3D renderings to work on a vehicle as simple as the Grenadier. A basic labelled line drawing, disassembly order, and torque specs will suffice. A printed version is all I can ever imagine needing. Hopefully one will be made available.

I doubt that theyll do a printed version at all.
there’s so much effort/cost/resources going in to the quite stupendous ‘manual’ we’re getting screenshots of. One benefit is constant version control and content refresh. Printing it exposes them to a pile of problems that they can completely avoid, for little to zero benefit - to them, not to you.
maybe, in years to come, someone might do it, but its more likely eve then to be 3rd party electronic. prefer it or not, once the data at that level of richeness is available, it will be used.
just helping expectation managment, not trying to defend any of these positions.

 

[255/85]

Wasn't all the cad rendering done in development back when they were finalizing the build process? That's already paid for. Filling in a template with numbered instructions isn't that hard either. Charging $$$ to the DIY crowd is not going to make Ineos any friends. You're probably right - we're screwed.

 

[James]

Yes and no; software is always much, much more complicated to develop than it looks from any normal perspective.
Ineos have taken a very unusual, and ‘clean’ approach to their software, developing a lot themselves, rather than paying for industry standard packages, and then eternally dealing with integration and platform communication issues. It’s a bold decision, that will yield them, and us a lot of future benefits. But it’s a lot of pain up front. I dont think there’s much id criticise there, it is a universal learning with software, theres no easy path.
i dont think we are screwed, but theres definitely an open question over how much access we get when, and how they protect their IP (and their partners like bmw) from others, which is in all our long term interests too.

 

[DaveB]

We have to also allow for the fact that there have been quite a few changes in parts, suppliers and installation since production first started.
Also the North American spec has only just been finalised and will probably also go through some changes.
I am also willing to bet that at least 50% ++ of the owners don't care about the workshop manuals.

 

[255/85]

We have to also allow for the fact that there have been quite a few changes in parts, suppliers and installation since production first started.
Also the North American spec has only just been finalised and will probably also go through some changes.

Still, that would have been baked in as a necessity to inform dealers regarding warranty repair and parts replacement - not an additional cost per se.

I am also willing to bet that at least 50% ++ of the owners don't care about the workshop manuals.

I'd place that number more toward the 75% + mark but what do I know.