winch question confirmation...

[Zimm]

So, as I understand it, the winch is a redwinch, which has no parts availability or network in the US, it's a custom small spool similar to a competition winch and falls far below the typical 90+ft, no other winch will fit the stock cradle, and the insufficient winch is likely to be a 5k option... Do I have that right?

If one doesn't order their custom winch, are the relays and wiring still in place (or availability to order them) for the eventual custom bumper and warn?

 

[CountyV8]

You get the warranty with the RED

 

[AnD3rew]

So, as I understand it, the winch is a redwinch, which has no parts availability or network in the US, it's a custom small spool similar to a competition winch and falls far below the typical 90+ft, no other winch will fit the stock cradle, and the insufficient winch is likely to be a 5k option... Do I have that right?

If one doesn't order their custom winch, are the relays and wiring still in place (or availability to order them) for the eventual custom bumper and warn?

If you order the high load electrical preparation without the winch you will as I understand it have a 500amp electrical outlet under the bonnet and switches on the roof console. It may still need other stuff done bit I think the basics will be there. I think it’s accurate to say that for the moment at least there won’t be another winch that will fit in a concealed way in the stock bumper. So if the winch is not ordered your only practical option will be an aftermarket bar and winch once someone makes a compatible one.

For me despite the price the winch is good value and will do what I need. When you consider that for that money you get a neat concealed winch that is compatible with all the crash safety specifications of the vehicle, from a manufacturer that is renowned for high quality gear, it is installed, wired and the front suspension is upgraded for the weight so height and handling are not compromised it is a decent deal. By the time you have bought the aftermarket bar ans fittings, paid to have it fitted and wired and upgraded the front springs you will have paid a similar amount if you go for quality gear like ARB and Warn etc the only trade off is the rope length, I would have liked more but for me it will not be a regular use, it is an insurance policy and with a winch extension rope it will do for what I need.

 

[TheDocAUS]

The winch fitted to the IG is a custom Red Winch. It is a non standard size winch. So any aftermarket winch will need to be custom made to fit the IG. Look here and here.

In another thread it is suggested the front winch is wired to the starter motor power cables/connectors. If true, a winch installed later can be wired the same way later. The point is not yet confirmed.

For any rear winch, you use the supplied rear NATO plug, rated to 500amps.

 

[DenisM]

Reading between the lines of several of the earlier contributions of @Brookers78 , it seemed (to me at least) that a "portable" winch could be used for a self recovery using the front tow plate. The implication, again, to my reading... was that such a recovery might be acceptable if it was a front on straight line pull and didn't over stress the tow plate setup.

Using the "rule of thumb" where Required Pull Effect =Gross wt of vehicle x ( S* (Surface drag) + G** (gradient =sine of slope angle) ... so for the Grenadier @ max Wt the pull through soft sand up a 10% (=6 deg )slope is 3500(0.22+0.11) = 1155kg, or 800kg if dragging on "level" ground through sand (at the beach for example). Which should be comfortably accommodated by the tow plate. Obviously not for "technical" stuff up rock faces etc .
Thoughts?

* Surface Drag Sand 0.18; Gravel 0.2; soft Sand 0.22; mud 0.32; boggy marsh 0.52
** Gradient 5% / 3 deg/0.06; 10% 6 deg/0.11; 20%/11deg/0.2; 30%/17 deg /0,3; 50%/26deg/0.44; 70% 35deg/ 0.58;
100%/ 45deg/0.71

 

[DCPU]

So, as I understand it, the winch is a redwinch, which has no parts availability or network in the US

Why do you say that?

Engineered To Be Better

Designed to meet the most demanding conditions worldwide.

red-winchesusa.com

 

[DCPU]

If you order the high load electrical preparation without the winch you will as I understand it have a 500amp electrical outlet under the bonnet

Yes, that's what I thought I was buying, but...

 

[DCPU]

In another thread it is suggested the front winch is wired to the starter motor power cables/connectors. If true, a winch installed later can be wired the same way later. The point is not yet confirmed.

These are the photos:

 

[Zimm]

Things break under use, and I use my winches. Winches wear out and winches age and weather. They are an expendable. Access for PM and ease of PM are important. Off the shelf available parts are important. The ability to reach out and not have to reset your line mid pull is important, especially alone. Warranties are nice, but, like the plotter in my office, I need it to work when I need it to work and waiting for low volume custom production run parts isn't going to get me there. My 110NAS came with a 9000lb winch in an easily accessible location. If Ineos needed a custom winch, they simply forgot it during the design phase. oops.

There are some short drum winches out there but we'd need dimensions, mounting pattern, and a clockable control handle on the proper side.

Portable winches are a terrible idea. You have a 100 pound lump you need to securely fasten in the already small load bay so it doesn't kill you in a crash, and it'll end up buried under your other gear, which you'll have to hope is accessible in the orientation you're stuck, then you'll have hope it's mountable in the orientation you're stuck. I don't really consider those units a serious offroad option, they belong on service and construction trucks. I have a custom rear bumper for my lx470 that houses an 8000lb Mile Marker. I've actually used that more than the front unit. I'd do that again before I'd carry a portable in my hatch.

I'm not in an area where I need to worry about crash engineering for a steel aftermarket bumper and I can easily design it, but, that now segues into ..... spring availability, and all that other handling BS. It's amazing how you can really feel the affect of all that weight when it's too far out front. I really just wanted to check boxes on an order form.

 

[AnD3rew]

Things break under use, and I use my winches. Winches wear out and winches age and weather. They are an expendable. Access for PM and ease of PM are important. Off the shelf available parts are important. The ability to reach out and not have to reset your line mid pull is important, especially alone. Warranties are nice, but, like the plotter in my office, I need it to work when I need it to work and waiting for low volume custom production run parts isn't going to get me there. My 110NAS came with a 9000lb winch in an easily accessible location. If Ineos needed a custom winch, they simply forgot it during the design phase. oops.

There are some short drum winches out there but we'd need dimensions, mounting pattern, and a clockable control handle on the proper side.

Portable winches are a terrible idea. You have a 100 pound lump you need to securely fasten in the already small load bay so it doesn't kill you in a crash, and it'll end up buried under your other gear, which you'll have to hope is accessible in the orientation you're stuck, then you'll have hope it's mountable in the orientation you're stuck. I don't really consider those units a serious offroad option, they belong on service and construction trucks. I have a custom rear bumper for my lx470 that houses an 8000lb Mile Marker. I've actually used that more than the front unit. I'd do that again before I'd carry a portable in my hatch.

I'm not in an area where I need to worry about crash engineering for a steel aftermarket bumper and I can easily design it, but, that now segues into ..... spring availability, and all that other handling BS. It's amazing how you can really feel the affect of all that weight when it's too far out front. I really just wanted to check boxes on an order form.

You are right in many ways and for you the OEM winch may not suit you. INEOS had to design something that would meet crash and other regulations effectively in the same platform for a global market. For people like me, who are probably most of their market. The winch is a nice insurance policy, not a daily use item and being able to tick the box is great. For those who need more they will have to wait for the aftermarket. Building a platform for global regulation is always going to be a trade off.

 

[Zimm]

The primary value of a short drum is rock crawling, to shave 30lb off the front end. If you consider a touring truck, someone that only consistently uses 45ft can use 90 or 150, where the opposite doesn't work well.

This miss may also be an issue bred from choosing an engine 6 cylinders long, as opposed to 3.5 or 4.5. The nvh advantage in this application is lost and, as you note, this isn't 1965 and packaging a long engine must get sticky when considering frontal impact crumple zones.

The reason one would want a permanently mounted winch with a longer line even if you think you won't need it, is committing to treading lightly. While you may be able to rock back and forth, serpentine your path, or drive slightly wide to get unstuck, I think it's best to make the decision early and pull the line to the best available angle from the point that wont damage the environment. Don't dig ruts with the go pedal. Making a production out of it by using detachable winches or short lines encourages avoiding the line in favor of using the gas until you're absolutely dug in like a tick, and makes you a bad boy. For the last couple decades, I go by a 3x rule, that I don't recall who suggested it. if I cannot get thru on three short attempts on the trial, I just pull the line. It also saves your truck from damage, as a bonus.

Winches are your friend.

 

[YellowLab]

I like the built in winch option - but over $4K USD seems a bit high, even the removable winch option that fits into the front hitch plate is a over $3K - there have to be other options out there to consider. I'll go with the front tow mounting plate for now given my need for a winch has yet to be defined.

 

[TheDocAUS]

I like the built in winch option - but over $4K USD seems a bit high, even the removable winch option that fits into the front hitch plate is a over $3K - there have to be other options out there to consider. I'll go with the front tow mounting plate for now given my need for a winch has yet to be defined.

No other winch options at present, because a standard winch will not fit. Even the Red Winch is a custom size.

 

[YellowLab]

No other winch options at present, because a standard winch will not fit. Even the Red Winch is a custom size.

No other winch can attach to the front tow hitch plate if you want a removable winch?

 

[TheDocAUS]

No other winch can attach to the front tow hitch plate if you want a removable winch?

No other winch, at present, can be installed where the front IG winch is installed from the factory. The reason given by Red Winch is here. In summary:

the Grenadier winch is not a “standard” width due to space constraints with the vehicle integration.

 

[YellowLab]

No other winch, at present, can be installed where the front IG winch is installed from the factory. The reason given by Red Winch is here. In summary:

Ok - I assumed no other winch could be installed internally - but assume there are many options that can attach to the front tow plate.

 

[Zimm]

I’m guessing other aftermarket rock crawler winches “may” work. Warn rc, good winch, etc. their size may be “custom” to redwinch. We need dimensions.

I just looked, and all the quality winches are bit spendy nowadays. Not redwinch spendy, but not the 800 bucks they were a decade ago. There have been some price hikes in addition to inflation I see.

 

[AnD3rew]

The primary value of a short drum is rock crawling, to shave 30lb off the front end. If you consider a touring truck, someone that only consistently uses 45ft can use 90 or 150, where the opposite doesn't work well.

This miss may also be an issue bred from choosing an engine 6 cylinders long, as opposed to 3.5 or 4.5. The nvh advantage in this application is lost and, as you note, this isn't 1965 and packaging a long engine must get sticky when considering frontal impact crumple zones.

The reason one would want a permanently mounted winch with a longer line even if you think you won't need it, is committing to treading lightly. While you may be able to rock back and forth, serpentine your path, or drive slightly wide to get unstuck, I think it's best to make the decision early and pull the line to the best available angle from the point that wont damage the environment. Don't dig ruts with the go pedal. Making a production out of it by using detachable winches or short lines encourages avoiding the line in favor of using the gas until you're absolutely dug in like a tick, and makes you a bad boy. For the last couple decades, I go by a 3x rule, that I don't recall who suggested it. if I cannot get thru on three short attempts on the trial, I just pull the line. It also saves your truck from damage, as a bonus.

Winches are your friend.

Don’t think it was an issue with Engine configuration, more about crash safety, crumole zones, airbags, pedestrian safety regulations etc. there is actually a fair gap if you look between the front of the engine and the radiator etc. I don’t think anyone would argue that more rope would have been better, but it is what it is. If you think you need more then wait until someone like ARB bring out a winch bar and put what you like in it.

 

[DCPU]

Things break under use, and I use my winches. Winches wear out and winches age and weather. They are an expendable.

Expendable ~ "of relatively little significance, and therefore able to be abandoned or destroyed", not how I see my winches.

If Ineos needed a custom winch, they simply forgot it during the design phase. oops.

I think they just made a particular choice. I've almost no doubt, given Sir Jim's input, that the winch was on the list of key requirements from the start.

Portable winches are a terrible idea. You have a 100 pound lump you need to securely fasten in the already small load bay so it doesn't kill you in a crash

Why do people always exaggerate the weight of a portable winch? If you want to talk about 100lb weights to securely fasten then let's talk about fully loaded fridges.

then you'll have hope it's mountable in the orientation you're stuck.

Like a fixed front winch?

I don't really consider those units a serious offroad option

Your loss.

 

[DCPU]

I like the built in winch option - but over $4K USD seems a bit high, even the removable winch option that fits into the front hitch plate is a over $3K - there have to be other options out there to consider. I'll go with the front tow mounting plate for now given my need for a winch has yet to be defined.

Read what's been said on this forum by Red Winches about using the removeable winch in the front towing plate - it's a no.