Winch or not ?

[CountyV8]

Fits in the 2"receiver but may fit in the front tow hitch in Aus

 

[Michael H.]

I wouldn't call the springs upgraded, in the tradional sense of that word, but rather just a different spring rate.

As such I'd not expect there to be a significant, if any, price difference to the other rated springs; and if of course if they're fitted on the production line there's no cost impact there either.

The original question was whether to order the vehicle with a winch, or perhaps fit one later. The fact that ordering one from the factory includes the fitment of appropriately rated springs avoids one of the challenges of fitting one later.

 

[DaveB]

I am currently struggling whether to add a winch or not.

I do not really 'need' a winch. But it gives me a bit more confidence to master difficult sections. If I will once travel through Sardinia, the Pyrenees or the like, it would feel like kind of a backup.

On the other hand, I will likely drive the Grenadier on the road for at least 90%.

Ineos offers a 5.5 tonnes winch, the price is 3671,- € - which is a lot.

I ask my self, whether I could fit a winch of that categorie for that price later, including installation, wiring etc. (already have the power panel).

What do you think? What are the prices for something equally good and powerful?

Not sure about the weight of the Red removable winch but a ‘removable’ winch is normally just a regular winch fitted to a multi-mount kit, with appropriate plug’n’play wiring prep on the vehicle. So it’s pretty much whatever winch you want. This appears to be the case also with the Ineos option, which looks to be a lower rated winch mounted in a steel sling.

Remember that you’d almost always use a hand winch in combination with a snatch block giving a 2:1 mechanical advantage, so typically a ~1.6 tonne winch {12-13kg plus same in cable) is plenty for a light vehicle. Not that a light vehicle feels such when it’s sunk to it’s axles and all you have is a hand winch.

If you go down this route you‘ll also want a synthetic line… run the synthetic line through the snatch block(s) and do your straight pull via the steel cable.

Final thing, it’s also notable that if you’re in the middle of nowhere hand winches can be used for various lifting and pulling tasks outside the realm of vehicle-mounted... side ways pull if your vehicle is resting on it’s side in a washout; righting a rolled vehicle; doing bush panel repairs; hoisting an engine/transmission* etc etc.

* not recommended of course, but when you’ve gotta do what you’ve gotta do…

I am asking myself the same question about the winch.
I think a winch is a bit like seat belts and airbags.
You don't need seat belts or airbags until you do.
Hopefully you go your whole life without needing any of them but.................

 

[Deepblue]

Hi @emax
am in the very same situation: don’t ‘need’ a winch as much as I don’t ‘need’ a Grenadier. But I ‘want’ both…
Have considered the removable winch. Problem I see is in Europe incl Switzerland we probably don’t get any front towing hitch or front winch mounting. Think security reasons don’t allow. Maybe some diy is possible but not sure how to hide behind the bumper.
Have decided to stick to the integrated winch for time being and wait for more detailed spec. Guess I could easier untick such option for contract then add.
From what I read IA factory red winch has a smaller spool because of space with only 15m rope. and mounting incl bumper is specific so maybe not cheaper aftermarket.
Looking forward to get more insights and the forum is great.

 

[DCPU]

Thank you, you have all brought very plausible arguments.

In fact, I don't feel particularly comfortable with the ~ 50kg additional weight, which is mainly just being driven around. And bemax' arguments regarding consumption / efficiency are hard facts.

DCPU's hint was a enlightenment and will probably become my solution. It's not about showing off a winch for me, but really about a 'backup'. And a Tirfor (in German "Greifzug", I had to look it up) seems to be a really viable solution. This is used by firefighters as well as the military, so it should be a solid solution. With certain limits, but that's the price. And it's of course true that a winch needs attention.

In return, 3670 euros is a decent saving, for which I can not only buy a good Tirfor and a reasonable set of recovery gear but have as well still enough left to completely fuel up my Grenadier 15 or 20 Times.

Yes, the forum gathers a great deal of knowledge and experience. Thank you all!

The hand winch you appear to have selected is enormous. I assume it was just to illustrate the type rather than the model?

 

[DCPU]

I use a Greifzug with my Defender. The good thing about it is that you really think it over before you bring your car in a situation where you need it. It is slow slow progress you make, working with it!
But it is somehow satisfying as well to see what you can move with one arm…
My tirfor is quite heavy and needs two aluminium boxes including steel rope and everything I need for it.

Have you got some photos of that setup?

 

[bemax]

Have you got some photos of that setup?

No, sorry. But here is the bundle in a shop:

Dönges Mehrzweckzug-Satz DIN 14800-MZ16 Greifzug

Neu konzipierter Satz nach DIN 14800-5:2013-12. Kasten 1: 1 Stück Dönges FireBox nach DIN 14880-1-LM (600 x 400 x 220 mm), mit Einteilung und…

shop.doenges-rs.de

 

[emax]

The hand winch you appear to have selected is enormous. I assume it was just to illustrate the type rather than the model?

You're right, it's a monster.

But I simply (as naive in this topic) chose one with about the same pulling power as the integrated winch. I've since learned that a 1.6 ton Tirfor with a pulley would probably be good enough.

Also, you probably don't need 20m of steel cable. What you need is a cable with approximately the net towing length normally required. You can extend this to the car with a plastic cable. Saves a few kg too.

 

[DCPU]

Another thing is weight. A good Tirfor (say 3200Kg) and a cable quickly sums up 50 or 65 Kg, depending on the brand and the length of the cable. The cable has to be made of steel due to the functioning principle of the Tirfor, so it is quite heavy. A short steel-cable would however work if you extend it with a plastic rope and only use the steel part for winching. This saves some kilograms.

Maybe it's better to transport 65 Kg for 10% of the time than 45 Kg for 100% of the time. But you have to secure this load whilst driving, it can become a dangerous missile.

There was another idea: The removable winch. Works front and aft. Does anybody know what it weighs?

Don't forget you're looking at lifting loads with a Tirfor spec.

A T516 should be more than enough. Weight wise the machine weighs 13.5kg & 20m of cable 13.1kg. Carried separately or together, it's not a issue.

 

[emax]

No, sorry. But here is the bundle in a shop:

Dönges Mehrzweckzug-Satz DIN 14800-MZ16 Greifzug

Neu konzipierter Satz nach DIN 14800-5:2013-12. Kasten 1: 1 Stück Dönges FireBox nach DIN 14880-1-LM (600 x 400 x 220 mm), mit Einteilung und…

shop.doenges-rs.de

Well, that's helluva a bundle!

Are you a THW member ???

 

[DCPU]

No, sorry. But here is the bundle in a shop:

Dönges Mehrzweckzug-Satz DIN 14800-MZ16 Greifzug

Neu konzipierter Satz nach DIN 14800-5:2013-12. Kasten 1: 1 Stück Dönges FireBox nach DIN 14880-1-LM (600 x 400 x 220 mm), mit Einteilung und…

shop.doenges-rs.de

Thanks.

UK suppliers don't seen to bundle in this manner.

I like the edge separator, but it doesn't seem to be available separately?

 

[DCPU]

Also, you probably don't need 20m of steel cable. What you need is a cable with approximately the net towing length normally required. You can extend this to the car with a plastic cable. Saves a few kg too.

I would not go for less than 20m, ideally 25m.

Things are never as close as you think when wanting to extract yourself safely; and to single rig, rather than double rig is the name of the game.

If you have a 22m pull, a 15m winch wire and a 40m synthetic rope, how are you going to shorten the synthetic rope?

 

[DCPU]

Fits in the 2"receiver but may fit in the front tow hitch in Aus
View attachment 7792200View attachment 7792201

Not sure why we can't have the front receiver hitch in the UK?

A towball mounted on the front bumper is ideal for manoeuvring trailers into tight spaces.

Anyone from Ineos listening?

 

[globalgregors]

It might be worth noting for members in parts of the world where winch recoveries are rare… a winch need not be matched to the weight of the vehicle, a smaller winch is sufficient for most recoveries as long as sufficient snatch blocks/additional line are included to reduce the load.

What is typically traded away is the distance over which one can winch, not necessarily how much can be pulled. Similarly, additional static straps in your recovery kit may be necessary to effectively reduce the distance between the winching arrangement and the anchoring point. Lengthy recoveries may also take longer as a shorter setup needs to be repeatedly reset.

This above setup typically gives you the option to then employ your front-mounted winch to recover your own vehicle to the rear, and also permits a longer standoff distance when recovering another vehicle, such as from fesh fesh, a salt lake bed, river crossing, approaching tide or similar.

The opposite is also true, eg a winch setup rated to the weight of the vehicle is not going to save one from a lot of digging if one has sunk the vehicle to it’s floorpan... which is where a hilift jack might pay for itself.

 

[DCPU]

The original question was whether to order the vehicle with a winch, or perhaps fit one later. The fact that ordering one from the factory includes the fitment of appropriately rated springs avoids one of the challenges of fitting one later.

Totally agree with that, but what you said initially, and what I was questioning, was:

"4. I understand that part of the cost is due to upgraded front springs when the winch is ordered."

 

[bemax]

Well, that's helluva a bundle!

Are you a THW member ???

I sell everything the fire departments and other helpers need

 

[DCPU]

the fitting by the factory is a no brainer especially with the ctek unit. Also it's protected inside the front bumper and gets higher rated springs.

For the winch option (£3,185) we've been told (Justin Hocevar) you need the High Load Auxiliary Switch Panel and Electrical Preparation (£1,060); if you now want the CTEK unit (a Smartpass 120S) that comes with the Auxiliary Battery then that's an additional £570.

The Smartpass 120S without the CTEK 250SE DC-DC charger seems not to be doing the job you'd want when running a winch?

It also needs clarification on where the winch will draw power from when an auxiliary battery is fitted. The starter battery ~ as that's where it must come from if you don't option the auxiliary battery.

It's also worth noting what Red Winches say about batteries when powering their winches:

"We recommend a good 12v alternator (180A as a minimum) charging the winch batteries. Two batteries of a minimum of 75Ah capacity each, giving you the 12v DC supply you need. At least 50mm² high quality, high load electrical cable, 70mm² is recommended. Clean electrical joints and if in areas prone to water joints should have conductive grease applied."

"We always test with two 85Ah batteries as a minimum, giving a 12V DC supply."

EXPLORER 2 (12v) 6,000kg (13,200 lbs) ADVENTURE - Red Winches

RED Winches Explorer2 12v - Adventure gears 6000kg (13200lbs), Electric Winch

www.red-winches.com

 

[Sandman]

It also needs clarification on where the winch will draw power from when an auxiliary battery is fitted. The starter battery ~ as that's where it must come from if you don't option the auxiliary battery.

We know the alternator can pump out 250 amp, which will provide most of the power needed. The main battery, and if you have an aux battery, are both 105ah each.

 

[emax]

I have ordered the second battery plus the High Load Auxiliary Switch Panel.

I wonder if Ineos really sells a winch which wouldn't be functional without additional equipment - without implementing this in the configurator as a mandatory upgrade?

 

[DCPU]

I wonder if Ineos really sells a winch which wouldn't be functional without additional equipment - without implementing this in the configurator as a mandatory upgrade?

There's a big difference between the vehicle engineering team and the website developers... but yes, that's exactly what has happened.