Where's the confidence level in the company?

[Zimm]

Recaro is in the Euro chapter 11 from what I understand. It’ll be making seats again. Why would Ineos buy a company that just tanked and is in receivership. I don’t see how it solves the issue any quicker and they would take on debt, and have a whole different company to try to resurrect. Jim may have gone down the path of enthusiast dreamer, but I don’t think he’s outright stupid and looking to flush another 200m down the pooper.

I would think they looked at all options BEFORE stopping production.

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

Recaro is in the Euro chapter 11 from what I understand. It’ll be making seats again. Why would Ineos buy a company that just tanked and is in receivership. I don’t see how it solves the issue any quicker and they would take on debt, and have a whole different company to try to resurrect. Jim may have gone down the path of enthusiast dreamer, but I don’t think he’s outright stupid and looking to flush another 200m down the pooper.

I would think they looked at all options BEFORE stopping production.

Because seats are a safety issue/concern and they have to go thru all kinds of tests and governmental approval to use in a vehicle. Plus when you are selling a vehicle in different counties that’s different rules and laws you have to pass and get approval for. That process is VERY expensive and time consuming. You already have the seats approved and working, so buying the company to keep things as is would take on a debt but also solve issues. I am not saying this is the best thing to do, just throwing out options. Again, this is all just conjecture by us all as Ineos still has yet to actually say what the part is.

 

[bikesandguitars]

I would think before introducing Arcane Works, Ineos would get all the Grenadier issues addressed before Grenadier goes luxury. I hope Ineos is not Tone Deaf.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JWtiMitSD4

What issues are they not addressing?

 

[Bluesurf]

What issues are they not addressing?

Read through all the Forum discussions and you will be shocked at all the problems. There are dozens, the water penetration is horrible. The water leaks are worst, through the ceiling via safari glass and top of the door sills, the rubber strips of which many have no glue or gaps with no glue. Go through this forum and you will find many examples. Also so many ADAS annoyances.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R2HUqZJ6Wbw

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8giNTMmOATU

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dOrIYbO92WI

https://ineosforum-data.community.forum/video/7828/7828219-a4e46e6685c5e14bfc0b05ec11ad58e7.mp4

https://ineosforum-data.community.forum/video/7832/7832050-d335a6c5ec63debb7e88a38e1475e252.mp4

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrPi6PsSsOc

 

[LC0013]

Read through all the Forum discussions and you will be shocked at all the problems. There are dozens, the water penetration is horrible. The water leaks are worst, through the ceiling via safari glass and top of the door sills, the rubber strips of which many have no glue or gaps with no glue. Go through this forum and you will find many examples. Also so many ADAS annoyances.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R2HUqZJ6Wbw

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8giNTMmOATU

Those issues have been addresses. So, old news at best.

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

Read through all the Forum discussions and you will be shocked at all the problems. There are dozens, the water penetration is horrible. The water leaks are worst, through the ceiling via safari glass and top of the door sills, the rubber strips of which many have no glue or gaps with no glue. Go through this forum and you will find many examples. Also so many ADAS annoyances.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R2HUqZJ6Wbw

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8giNTMmOATU

Some of these beasts just went thru a hurricane and were even parked outside and sustained no damage including water (several owners posted pics and info about this on Facebook).

I would ask you like I did another forum member who always seems negative towards these vehicles, are you a Grenadier owner? Seems like a lot of your posts are negative in nature and while I have no issue on your posting here but without actually owning one and driving it daily, you just can’t understand the feel we owners get from owning one (most of us, can’t speak for all obviously). I own two and have had ZERO of your issues you post on other than the sounds from the speeding/etc that I know will eventually be fixed with a proper software update and these things are so DAMN BAD ASS that I will live with those little “annoyances” until they get fixed. I will have these Grenadiers until I die. GRENADIER LIFER right here. So any of you non-forum members (or members) who are on the fence on getting one & reading these threads trying to decide, please know there are many owners who have had zero issues and love these vehicles!! Come join us…….

Edit: I just checked out some of your past posts and appears you have one on order with a November 2024 delivery date. Sounds like you kind of have a negative view of these before you have taken possession of yours. Hopefully yours will have zero issues like I have had, but once it’s in your driveway and available for you to drive everyday I think you will see a big difference in how you feel and post about them. Time will tell and I hope your deal goes thru with no hold up with the current shutdown. let us know when you take possession.

 

[landmannnn]

Some of these beasts just went thru a hurricane and were even parked outside and sustained no damage including water (several owners posted pics and info about this on Facebook).

I would ask you like I did another forum member who always seems negative towards these vehicles, are you a Grenadier owner? Seems like a lot of your posts are negative in nature and while I have no issue on your posting here but without actually owning one and driving it daily, you just can’t understand the feel we owners get from owning one (most of us, can’t speak for all obviously). I own two and have had ZERO of your issues you post on other than the sounds from the speeding/etc that I know will eventually be fixed with a proper software update and these things are so DAMN BAD ASS that I will live with those little “annoyances” until they get fixed. I will have these Grenadiers until I die. GRENADIER LIFER right here. So any of you non-forum members (or members) who are on the fence on getting one & reading these threads trying to decide, please know there are many owners who have had zero issues and love these vehicles!! Come join us…….

Edit: I just checked out some of your past posts and appears you have one on order with a November 2024 delivery date. Sounds like you kind of have a negative view of these before you have taken possession of yours. Hopefully yours will have zero issues like I have had, but once it’s in your driveway and available for you to drive everyday I think you will see a big difference in how you feel and post about them. Time will tell and I hope your deal goes thru with no hold up with the current shutdown. let us know when you take possession.

A good post. Sadly many car forums have people who join just to deride the brand. They're probably on Ferrari, Ford and Mercedes forums too.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Read through all the Forum discussions and you will be shocked at all the problems. There are dozens, the water penetration is horrible. The water leaks are worst, through the ceiling via safari glass and top of the door sills, the rubber strips of which many have no glue or gaps with no glue. Go through this forum and you will find many examples. Also so many ADAS annoyances.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R2HUqZJ6Wbw

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8giNTMmOATU

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dOrIYbO92WI

The passenger side boot wash is a feature, not a defect. Make sure you spec it on your build. The Arcane builds will have them on all 4 doors and the rear doors.

TBH, I haven’t heard of any systemic leaking issues (doors or safari windows) on deliveries for the last several months. I do have the boot wash upgrade, but no water intrusion. Also, there don’t seem to be a lot of ADAS issues - other than people want to turn it off and keep it off. The intrusion of the nanny state. On the door seal, just keep an eye on the bottom - little 3M tape fixes it should anything come loose, but dealers know to look for it.

Don’t just rely on old videos - plenty of owners right here with recent deliveries. You can just ask them - a pretty incredible resource and community.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

That’s what I would have hoped. Or at least put together a dedicated team and a communication strategy together. One focused on know issues and customer satisfaction. Right now Ineos keeps making announcements about Arcane, and China, and they show up to all the off-road events. But for the current owners they aren’t showing up.

We did exactly that back in February of this year. They took all the constructive feedback from this site and presented it to the people that can make the required changes with a stroke of the pen.

We have already seen the tow software update rolled out to address the issues found on the NA spec vehicles earlier this year. So if they want to, they can address the ‘niggles’ or even deal breakers for some on the software side of things relatively quickly. The question is do they want to allocate resources to that? There’s a concerted drive to take the Grenadier upmarket right now, without these fixes then I’m hot too hopeful of the success of that idea.

The main thing for me is that INEOS does not forget its core market base, the die hards have bought theirs, where do the next tranche of customers come from? People are cross shopping this vehicle with all sorts of things, quite a few of my friends love the Grenadier but it’s just too annoying to dive as a daily for them, and thats on one without any appreciable issues apart from a terrible HVAC system.

 

[bikesandguitars]

Edit: I just checked out some of your past posts and appears you have one on order with a November 2024 delivery date. Sounds like you kind of have a negative view of these before you have taken possession of yours. Hopefully yours will have zero issues like I have had, but once it’s in your driveway and available for you to drive everyday I think you will see a big difference in how you feel and post about them. Time will tell and I hope your deal goes thru with no hold up with the current shutdown. let us know when you take possession.

Good detective work, Dual Grenny Guy.

And therein lies 90% of the bad press with the Grenadier. Just as it is with every other enthusiast forum I belong to; the rumor mill is perpetuated by the uninformed, easily persuaded, inexperienced commenter posing as a content expert. They read something or saw a video - and that has reinforced their entire belief system.

The guy has zero miles under his belt.

As it is with all things, a mistruth can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on. For some reason, people just love doom scrolling - and it’s that way with every topic.

 

[Tenac]

A good post. Sadly many car forums have people who join just to deride the brand. They're probably on Ferrari, Ford and Mercedes forums too.

Don't forget forums are for the enthusiasts first but when others who are struggling with issues or needs guidance just pop on to ask or complain, it's the same on all the auto forums I'm on. Not many create an account just to say I love this ride and disappear lol. If you go to some of the Porsche forums you would wonder why the car brand exists.... What I enjoy about forums after sifting through messages if they capture the fixes or resolutions to issues that is where you get soo much value, other than being able to connect with like minded peeps.

 

[bigleonski]

I wish someone could drop around to my place and tell me how to hear my power steering whining. I feel like I’m missing out. Leaves me with a lack of confidence for sure.

Of course if I’m turning into a particularly tight carpark space I often wonder whether I actually have power steering.

 

[WJG-GMT II]

I feel the same 5 Months and my truck still isn’t fixed. The list just gets longer every day I own it. I dropped it off on Friday, demanded a loaner and drove home. I’m now 1750KM away. They can keep mine till they fix it or replace it. I even offered to just keep the loaner. It’s far more stable and reliable. I checked the error log for my loaner 0, Zip, Nada, None. Mine has many many many. The answer from Ineos is always the same “Take it to the dealer” the dealer of course has no software for the problems. Lacking Tow Module and Software, Fuel Gauge Software, ADAS Software, Apple CarPlay Software. No service reminder reset (Software)
Power Steering Errors(Software?)
When my dealer asks Ineos they get told nothing, they have asked repeatedly and gotten nowhere. My A/C Evaporator is leaking and “The guy” that knows how to fix it at Ineos is “On Leave” (Quit? Left?) So there it is I’ve resorted to more pressure. I have the loaner, they have the problem child. I’m not driving this one back until mine is fully resolved including ADAD. So Ineos had better get its act together. And the Loaner belongs to Ineos, not the dealership. So it’s now on Ineos to solve it because I have their test Mule.

Man, that’s rough. Hope it sorts out for you soon. This brand has great potential, but the follow through matters—-same goes for Elon and his many tall tales.

 

[svmaven]

I think Ineos knocked the ball out of the park on their first vehicle release. Few teething pains but all totally fixable.

Some things, like weatherstripping, are easily fixable in the aftermarket. Some things, like software, are also easily fixable by the manufacturer, but nearly unfixable in the aftermarket.

All that said, car manufacturing burns up a lot of cash fast, and needs unit sales to recoup all the up front costs. Let's say they've sold 20,000 units at a $80,000 factory ASP (to allow for some dealer margin). That's $1.6B of revenue. At 25% gross margin (which is generous in the auto business), that's $320M of gross margin dollars to date. How much design, production engineering, inventory, distribution, marketing has that paid for? We'll never know, and we'll never know what the supply contracts say about volumes.

I very much want Ineos Automobiles to succeed and sell another 100,000 units of the IG in the next 36 months. It serves all our interests! At the same time I would like Ineos to publish enough public information that we can keep our vehicles running for a couple decades if Sir James loses interest in fronting more cash to keep IA operating.

Fingers crossed this whole discussion is moot, but it's completely fair for us to worry how to support our Grenadiers for the long haul. More transparency would be greatly appreciated!

 

[YellowLab]

I'm not certain about canuk law, but, here if the owner of the car asks for it back and you refuse, they have a few options, the obvious being a 3rd degree felony and a visit from the sheriff depriving you of both the vehicle and 24hrs of freedom. But, I would like to see you finally prevail, so, good luck!

In California - I'm not even sure it is against the law anymore to steal a car. Seems that everything will get you out on cashless bail and if no one shows up for the court date the crime never happened...

 

[AWo]

All that said, car manufacturing burns up a lot of cash fast, and needs unit sales to recoup all the up front costs. Let's say they've sold 20,000 units at a $80,000 factory ASP (to allow for some dealer margin). That's $1.6B of revenue. At 25% gross margin (which is generous in the auto business), that's $320M of gross margin dollars to date. How much design, production engineering, inventory, distribution, marketing has that paid for? We'll never know, and we'll never know what the supply contracts say about volumes.

25% is far too much. The margin numbers are known across the automotive industry and the numbers are published. Ferrari is known to be the marging king with 24% for years (see my post: https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/land-rover-feeling-the-heat.12412720/post-1333260491) followed by Tesla and Mercedes and BMW, around 10%.

The development costs was estimated to £‎1.6B by some media. I don't know if that is an educated guess, as such numbers are no mystery in the automotive business or if they got numbers from Ineos. In my post, I estimated a generous margin of 15%, but you can read it yourself. But I could imagine, that the marketing, with all these journeys, clips and festivals around the world etc. added a few bucks, as well as Arcane works and the purchase of the game car manufacturer in Africa. A very important step, if we believe Ineos.

Another issue could be the accruels for warranty work. Normaly there is a percentage per car which is hold back. If that was calculated too low for alle the issues which have appeared (remember the Ineos technicians in 2023 which needed to change transfer boxes, pipes, seats, roof linings (due to water ingress), etc. and the still ongoing issues) at the dealer sites). Maybe one reason why Ineos rejects to pay for the broken windscreens and whining pumps....That reduces the margin, maybe, if calculated wrong in the beginning.

Sold Ineos cars in the US up to September: 4956 units.

AWo

 

[YellowLab]

Fortunately it seems that in most cases the problems are frustrating annoyances - rather than fully dead vehicles (with the exceptions of the folks above who have been through hell). I agree there are many folks out there who have one objective - trash the vehicle mercilessly in an effort to get clicks and subscribers. They are all over youtube and hit just about every car company - I watch reviewed one trash talking a Toyota saying it was poorly made and has never been reliable - complete pile of bullshit.

I see them here and on the Lexus GX forum - in most cases people who do not even own the car and they are whining, talking lawsuits to a company they are not customers of and a car they do not own - and its all talking conjecture. F' them.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

In California - I'm not even sure it is against the law anymore to steal a car. Seems that everything will get you out on cashless bail and if no one shows up for the court date the crime never happened...

Untrue!!!! Mandatory colon cleanse and regression therapy.

 

[C64_forever]

Correct. I actually was at my dealer yesterday to have three things sorted out. They checked my vin for warranty work required by Ineos and found two inspections to the towing package that Ineos required.

The dealer shared that outside my inspection they have been trained on 3 different software issues with the towing package, each depends on which vin you have (eg they had three different software packages and picked the one they installed depending on the vin ). If I developed software that way at work my field tech organization would kill me. We implement high levels of abstractions at the core of the software to hide to the field techs that the underlying hardware of software implementation is different. But i don't think Ineos is unique, this old school style of share engineering is prevalent in the car industry and particularly in the supply chain.

The dealer also shared the was an issue with the fuel level sensor for some vehicles that could turn on the check engine light after fueling that some vehicles where having (mine doesn't). Ineos haven't developed a for it yet but have told them that there is a timing issue between the fuel level sensor and the engine management system (although I suspect it's more likely timing in the emissions control system and specifically the evap system, I've seen these issues when I worked with another manufacturers e/e engineering team).

I had no issues with towing but they found that my VIN was included in a group on vins that required inspection.

But the point about parts is well placed. I ordered a part, it was readily available in Europe yet took 4 weeks to get to my dealer.

The problem I really want them to fix is my ac. If I run it and adjust the vent dial from front to front + feet it sends hot air out of all vents. If I adjust it back to front vent only then I get AC again. 100% repeatable.
Problem fixed by dealer. I was low on refrigerant, they told me that some vehicles came low on refrigerant and once they fill them they work well. So far mine is ready.

I also signed up for the namibia adventure. We are one month away from when it starts and when inquired if I'm going ineos is telling me that I'll be updated in "due time". I don't know about you but I prefer to buy plane tickets to the other side of the planet with a few weeks head start to get favorable fares.. I think it's a similar symptom of Ineos being a bit ahead of their skis..

Post pictures of the Namibia trip! I am jealous.

 

[C64_forever]

I will play devil’s advocate in this mostly negative thread as I think we should hear from both sides. Maybe I’m wrong, but here I go……

First, I am truly sorry to hear of the issues that some of you are having with your brand new vehicle. However, in “SOME” instances I do wonder if it’s truly the vehicle or if the owner is one that likes to complain about anything and is one of those never happy about anything type of people. Honestly, if you are having such a horrific experience why keep the vehicle? Sell it, trade it, figure out a way of getting into another vehicle and move on from the Grenadier as it is not for you. I’m in the USA and when I hear people complain about how bad this country is it hits me the same way, nothing is keeping you here if it is so bad pack up and move to another country. The USA is not holding you hostage. Find a better place to live for yourself. Sorry this is a big issue for me as I am a veteran and served proudly in the Army for many years. Same goes for the vehicle. However, If you do like the Grenadier and want to keep it and are having issues, have patience and trust that things will work out (production will start back up early 2025, manuals will get made, parts flowing, software updates sent out, etc). Btw, the parts issue is not just with Grenadiers! I have a close family member that I see and talk to on a regular basis and he owns a repair shop and he tells me horror stories of waiting MONTHS for parts for all kinds of vehicles (Nissan, Toyota, etc) and says this has been going on since the COVID shut down, and that it is affecting insurance companies & rental companies a lot as insurance has to pay for rentals for customers to stay in a lot longer waiting on these parts that use to take days to get in and rental companies are getting short on rentals because they are staying out longer. So you see it is NOT just a Grenadier issue. I know this doesn’t fix your situation, but does explain that it’s not just our vehicles.

Maybe in a few months I will be eating these words, but I am a gambler and have gone all in on Ineos Grenadier (see my avatar and user name) as I own TWO of them. I feel in LOVE with the first one and decided to “pimp” it out with every single accessory I could find and then buy a second to leave mainly stock, for now . Call me crazy but when production starts back up and they start sending Quartermasters to the US then I will probably own 3!! Just hate having to dish out the dang 25% “chicken tax” BS!! I have owned MANY vehicles in my lifetime and never felt this way about another one and that says alot as I have owned and still own several unique and nice vehicles. Yes I am fortunate and I have other vehicles as well, but I honestly only drive the Grenny’s lately. True story!! So yes, I have had a totally different experience than some on this thread. Besides the common beeps we all get, ZERO issues. I have purchased my two Grenny’s in the last few months and makes me wonder if the newer models have less issues. My fix for the stupid beep/ding whatever you want to call the sound we all get going over 1mph (km in other places) the speed limit? Turning the stereo up to 10, 11, 12 (I try not to hit 14) and jamming to the Stones/Skynyrd/ACDC/Halen/ZZ/insert your fav music here then all the sudden I don’t hear it anymore. Ok, I’m being facetious now, but that’s my real fix until we get a software update that works. Is it aggravating, sure it is, but doesn’t take away from the way I feel about these things. Every single time I drive one, someone will either honk their horn and give me thumbs up or ask to roll down my window to ask questions about it, take pics with their cell phones or just the common wave from people I have no clue who they are. That’s just from them seeing the outside, the ones that catch me at the gas station or grocery store and look inside they are even more wowed. It’s crazy as I don’t even get this much attention from my 1969 fully restored Bronco! Fact!! Yes if I am being honest I love the Grenny’s more than the Bronco (don’t hate on me Bronco lovers I still love my Bronco too but it doesn’t drive like a new vehicle—if you own one you know what I mean!).

Anyway, I get sidetracked sometimes in my old age. Sorry. I am not making fun of anyone’s issue or calling anyone a hypochondriac of vehicle issues, but there seems to be a lot of negativity towards this GREAT product we all bought into. Do you realize what this brand has accomplished creating this vehicle? It is simply amazing. Almost every single part used are from the best of that industry (Bilstein, Bosch, Brembo, Carraro group, Eaton, Eibach, Recaro (for now), Tremec, etc). Just to get contracts and supply structure etc from all these manufacturers is amazing!! I honestly think these vehicles will be on the road well after the zombie apocalypse!

Sure there have been some snags along the way, but I can’t recall any new products that have came out in the last decade or so that had ZERO issues or the lack of support or info provided etc. It is what it is and to be blunt if you are so unhappy why do you still own the vehicle and why be a part of this forum family? Just my thoughts. I am sure I will have some haters come at me, but if you knew me you know I don’t back down from nada and I speak what I feel is right. So come at me bro…. as I am A GRENADIER MAN DOWN TO THE CORE BABY!!!

Ok hater downvotes begin…….
Btw, apparently in the USA we don’t get any of these “jackets” but this is how I feel about that: (sorry for the chicken scratch handwriting ):

View attachment 7872601
P.S. sorry for the book, it’s 5am and I’m awake with nothing to do but type..

Love everything you wrote here