Where's the confidence level in the company?

[Dual Grenny Guy]

I think Ineos knocked the ball out of the park on their first vehicle release. Few teething pains but all totally fixable.

Some things, like weatherstripping, are easily fixable in the aftermarket. Some things, like software, are also easily fixable by the manufacturer, but nearly unfixable in the aftermarket.

All that said, car manufacturing burns up a lot of cash fast, and needs unit sales to recoup all the up front costs. Let's say they've sold 20,000 units at a $80,000 factory ASP (to allow for some dealer margin). That's $1.6B of revenue. At 25% gross margin (which is generous in the auto business), that's $320M of gross margin dollars to date. How much design, production engineering, inventory, distribution, marketing has that paid for? We'll never know, and we'll never know what the supply contracts say about volumes.

I very much want Ineos Automobiles to succeed and sell another 100,000 units of the IG in the next 36 months. It serves all our interests! At the same time I would like Ineos to publish enough public information that we can keep our vehicles running for a couple decades if Sir James loses interest in fronting more cash to keep IA operating.

Fingers crossed this whole discussion is moot, but it's completely fair for us to worry how to support our Grenadiers for the long haul. More transparency would be greatly appreciated!

Very nice post! Couldn’t have said it better myself!!

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

In California - I'm not even sure it is against the law anymore to steal a car. Seems that everything will get you out on cashless bail and if no one shows up for the court date the crime never happened...

Heck there are tons of videos of people just walking into stores loading up buggies and leaving without paying and the employees can’t do anything about it. It’s CRAZY what’s going on with some of the new laws in certain states. You don’t have to believe me, Google it and watch some videos and read about many stores closing down in those areas due to the heavy theft losses. Sad really….heck I’m not telling you anything new, you live in Cali……

 

[Tazzieman]

Of course if I’m turning into a particularly tight carpark space I often wonder whether I actually have power steering.

I had to take Barry yesterday to pick up 3 large wheel/ tyre combos for my hybrid van. One does what one has to do
Get there very early....

 

[Zimm]

I always wanted that configuration. I'd need to saw 6" off my left leg to shift though. My neighbor has 3 original gt40's I can drive whenever I want... that is, if I can slice the top half of my head off.

*sigh* Short people have all the fun.

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

I always wanted that configuration. I'd need to saw 6" off my left leg to shift though. My neighbor has 3 original gt40's I can drive whenever I want... that is, if I can slice the top half of my head off.

*sigh* Short people have all the fun.

 

[YellowLab]

Heck there are tons of videos of people just walking into stores loading up buggies and leaving without paying and the employees can’t do anything about it. It’s CRAZY what’s going on with some of the new laws in certain states. You don’t have to believe me, Google it and watch some videos and read about many stores closing down in those areas due to the heavy theft losses. Sad really….heck I’m not telling you anything new, you live in Cali……

Oh yes - and if an employee were to say trip a shop lifter or try to stop/apprehend them - they would be fired and face up to 5 years/$50K in fines. We are a state run by children - amazing though how you put up with lots of things because the weather/scenery/so many other things help you ignore the non-sense.

 

[Gryphon]

I will play devil’s advocate in this mostly negative thread as I think we should hear from both sides. Maybe I’m wrong, but here I go……

First, I am truly sorry to hear of the issues that some of you are having with your brand new vehicle. However, in “SOME” instances I do wonder if it’s truly the vehicle or if the owner is one that likes to complain about anything and is one of those never happy about anything type of people. Honestly, if you are having such a horrific experience why keep the vehicle? Sell it, trade it, figure out a way of getting into another vehicle and move on from the Grenadier as it is not for you. I’m in the USA and when I hear people complain about how bad this country is it hits me the same way, nothing is keeping you here if it is so bad pack up and move to another country. The USA is not holding you hostage. Find a better place to live for yourself. Sorry this is a big issue for me as I am a veteran and served proudly in the Army for many years. Same goes for the vehicle. However, If you do like the Grenadier and want to keep it and are having issues, have patience and trust that things will work out (production will start back up early 2025, manuals will get made, parts flowing, software updates sent out, etc). Btw, the parts issue is not just with Grenadiers! I have a close family member that I see and talk to on a regular basis and he owns a repair shop and he tells me horror stories of waiting MONTHS for parts for all kinds of vehicles (Nissan, Toyota, etc) and says this has been going on since the COVID shut down, and that it is affecting insurance companies & rental companies a lot as insurance has to pay for rentals for customers to stay in a lot longer waiting on these parts that use to take days to get in and rental companies are getting short on rentals because they are staying out longer. So you see it is NOT just a Grenadier issue. I know this doesn’t fix your situation, but does explain that it’s not just our vehicles.

Maybe in a few months I will be eating these words, but I am a gambler and have gone all in on Ineos Grenadier (see my avatar and user name) as I own TWO of them. I feel in LOVE with the first one and decided to “pimp” it out with every single accessory I could find and then buy a second to leave mainly stock, for now . Call me crazy but when production starts back up and they start sending Quartermasters to the US then I will probably own 3!! Just hate having to dish out the dang 25% “chicken tax” BS!! I have owned MANY vehicles in my lifetime and never felt this way about another one and that says alot as I have owned and still own several unique and nice vehicles. Yes I am fortunate and I have other vehicles as well, but I honestly only drive the Grenny’s lately. True story!! So yes, I have had a totally different experience than some on this thread. Besides the common beeps we all get, ZERO issues. I have purchased my two Grenny’s in the last few months and makes me wonder if the newer models have less issues. My fix for the stupid beep/ding whatever you want to call the sound we all get going over 1mph (km in other places) the speed limit? Turning the stereo up to 10, 11, 12 (I try not to hit 14) and jamming to the Stones/Skynyrd/ACDC/Halen/ZZ/insert your fav music here then all the sudden I don’t hear it anymore. Ok, I’m being facetious now, but that’s my real fix until we get a software update that works. Is it aggravating, sure it is, but doesn’t take away from the way I feel about these things. Every single time I drive one, someone will either honk their horn and give me thumbs up or ask to roll down my window to ask questions about it, take pics with their cell phones or just the common wave from people I have no clue who they are. That’s just from them seeing the outside, the ones that catch me at the gas station or grocery store and look inside they are even more wowed. It’s crazy as I don’t even get this much attention from my 1969 fully restored Bronco! Fact!! Yes if I am being honest I love the Grenny’s more than the Bronco (don’t hate on me Bronco lovers I still love my Bronco too but it doesn’t drive like a new vehicle—if you own one you know what I mean!).

Anyway, I get sidetracked sometimes in my old age. Sorry. I am not making fun of anyone’s issue or calling anyone a hypochondriac of vehicle issues, but there seems to be a lot of negativity towards this GREAT product we all bought into. Do you realize what this brand has accomplished creating this vehicle? It is simply amazing. Almost every single part used are from the best of that industry (Bilstein, Bosch, Brembo, Carraro group, Eaton, Eibach, Recaro (for now), Tremec, etc). Just to get contracts and supply structure etc from all these manufacturers is amazing!! I honestly think these vehicles will be on the road well after the zombie apocalypse!

Sure there have been some snags along the way, but I can’t recall any new products that have came out in the last decade or so that had ZERO issues or the lack of support or info provided etc. It is what it is and to be blunt if you are so unhappy why do you still own the vehicle and why be a part of this forum family? Just my thoughts. I am sure I will have some haters come at me, but if you knew me you know I don’t back down from nada and I speak what I feel is right. So come at me bro…. as I am A GRENADIER MAN DOWN TO THE CORE BABY!!!

Ok hater downvotes begin…….
Btw, apparently in the USA we don’t get any of these “jackets” but this is how I feel about that: (sorry for the chicken scratch handwriting ):

View attachment 7872601
P.S. sorry for the book, it’s 5am and I’m awake with nothing to do but type..

 

[svmaven]

25% is far too much. The margin numbers are known across the automotive industry and the numbers are published. Ferrari is known to be the marging king with 24% for years (see my post: https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/land-rover-feeling-the-heat.12412720/post-1333260491) followed by Tesla and Mercedes and BMW, around 10%.

The development costs was estimated to £‎1.6B by some media. I don't know if that is an educated guess, as such numbers are no mystery in the automotive business or if they got numbers from Ineos. In my post, I estimated a generous margin of 15%, but you can read it yourself. But I could imagine, that the marketing, with all these journeys, clips and festivals around the world etc. added a few bucks, as well as Arcane works and the purchase of the game car manufacturer in Africa. A very important step, if we believe Ineos.

Another issue could be the accruels for warranty work. Normaly there is a percentage per car which is hold back. If that was calculated too low for alle the issues which have appeared (remember the Ineos technicians in 2023 which needed to change transfer boxes, pipes, seats, roof linings (due to water ingress), etc. and the still ongoing issues) at the dealer sites). Maybe one reason why Ineos rejects to pay for the broken windscreens and whining pumps....That reduces the margin, maybe, if calculated wrong in the beginning.

Sold Ineos cars in the US up to September: 4956 units.

AWo

You are of course right but I didn't want to get in a fight with anyone by lowballing ASP or margin. The point is the company is at least $1B upside down and needs to sell a lot more units to fix that. I want this to happen and it can't happen during a stop ship.

I have 100% confidence in the product and company. I bought their first product. I want them to reciprocate by prioritizing us owners over other stakeholders by sharing enough information to keep our vehicles running.

 

[trobex]

Heck there are tons of videos of people just walking into stores loading up buggies and leaving without paying and the employees can’t do anything about it. It’s CRAZY what’s going on with some of the new laws in certain states. You don’t have to believe me, Google it and watch some videos and read about many stores closing down in those areas due to the heavy theft losses. Sad really….heck I’m not telling you anything new, you live in Cali……

You get what you vote for in your country. But like us - we vote for endless debt and woke ideology. Guess we're the same. The dopes here in QLD msi cutting the same losses losers in year after year and wonder why people die in ambulances waiting outside in a queue to get in to a hospital.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Ladies and gentlemen, points have been adequately made, politics and shoplifting can live elsewhere, thanks.

 

[Commodore]

Back to the topic… I have a great deal of confidence in Ineos. While the Grenadier isn’t inexpensive, it does offer solid value. I picked mine up 3 weeks ago so it is a newer build. In 3 weeks I have driven it 2,000 miles which includes 500 miles on dirt in the Eastern Sierra. It has been basically trouble free and is extremely well screwed together. Maybe I’m lucky or maybe they are addressing the early build issues. The stupid overspeed warning will get sorted for those of us in N.A. It’s not a deal breaker but rather an annoyance.

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

Confidence level………..what say you? Me….

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

Back to the topic… I have a great deal of confidence in Ineos. While the Grenadier isn’t inexpensive, it does offer solid value. I picked mine up 3 weeks ago so it is a newer build. In 3 weeks I have driven it 2,000 miles which includes 500 miles on dirt in the Eastern Sierra. It has been basically trouble free and is extremely well screwed together. Maybe I’m lucky or maybe they are address the early build issues. The stupid overspeed warning will get sorted for those of us in N.A. It’s not a deal breaker but rather an annoyance.

ANOTHER lucky owner like me….trouble free & loving my Grenny’s!!!!

 

[DoubleDoom]

Maybe I’m lucky or maybe they are address the early build issues.

I read an article on the Grenadier some months back and it said that Ineos had been working hard to iron out reliability issues and that they had achieved that with the MY24. I think they probably have as we are not seeing many problem posts from MY24 owners having issues. Issues seem to be MY23 and MY23.5 (or US owners who think they have an MY24 but its actually a 23/23.5).

It was very important for Ineos to show that the vehicle was though and reliable and that it had not copied Land Rover on the reliability stakes.

 

[Zimm]

While the Grenadier isn’t inexpensive, it does offer solid value.

The average transaction price in the US in October was 48.5. I was 93.5. That's nominally double. A base lx600 is 92.5. I'm calling it expensive Mr. Moneybags.

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

The average transaction price in the US in October was 48.5. I was 93.5. That's nominally double. A base lx600 is 92.5. I'm calling it expensive Mr. Moneybags.

I’m calling it now…….i think you and MattA are one in the same……

 

[LC0013]

I read an article on the Grenadier some months back and it said that Ineos had been working hard to iron out reliability issues and that they had achieved that with the MY24. I think they probably have as we are not seeing many problem posts from MY24 owners having issues. Issues seem to be MY23 and MY23.5 (or US owners who think they have an MY24 but its actually a 23/23.5).

It was very important for Ineos to show that the vehicle was though and reliable and that it had not copied Land Rover on the reliability stakes.

What they heck is a model 23.5? Would the window sticker say that?? My window sticker says MY24 and nobody is going to change my mind to think it is a MY23.5..

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

What they heck is a model 23.5? Would the window sticker say that?? My window sticker says MY24 and nobody is going to change my mind to think it is a MY23.5..

I was actually wondering the exact same thing. Guessing it’s the build date they are going off of. I’m sure one of the very smart forum members will explain to us both. Also assume there is a way to determine the build date off your vin #, but if someone can explain how that works I would appreciate it. Both my build sheets say MY24 as well. I never got an actual window sticker only build sheets for both of mine. Anyone know how to get a copy of the window sticker other than thru the dealer? My sales guy is trying to get me one of each from HQ, but with the temp shut down probably gonna take a while.

 

[DaveB]

So there is a lot of grey area here and mixing and matching between dealer communication and corporate communication... But I'll work through the post with my thoughts.

• Customer access to a service manual keeps getting pushed, and hasn't been very specific, definitely a communications failure from Ineos
• The ordering of parts directly was dropped from specific mention quite some time ago, before US deliveries started I think, also as with any other brand, any parts you install yourself carry a warranty on the part, but not the labor associated.
• Ineos retracted the Bosch service network plan over a year ago
• The jacket fiasco is an absolute flub from Ineos corporate
• If you have parts orders, those are handled by the dealer, and wouldn't garner any communication from Ineos corporate (at least not to the customer); parts production has not been shut down or altered at all
• A dealer announced there would be a software update in July, Ineos never made that claim.
• All the trailer towing updates have been released for quite some time now (there was an initial one in February, and an additional a few months ago to correct an issue on a very small number of vehicles)
• Jacket - see above about jackets
• Clearing the service reminder is a task that can only be done at a dealer, what the dealer charges for that is not under control of anyone except for the dealer themselves. If they charge $250 just to clear your service reminder, I would take that as a sign of how little they value you as a customer.
• The Ineos website vehicle tracking has been horrible since the start; it has been discussed many times over the past 16 months that it is manually updated, and lots of those manual updates fell through the cracks. At this point, why even care about it since you have the vehicle.

Have you attempted to get the parts from another dealer just to compare?

I tend to agree with your points.
I think Ineos regret ever mentioning the repair manual.
I have had no trouble with parts and in fact Ineos Australia has authorised dealers to take parts off the showroom/demo vehicles if needed to get customers back on the road.
The Bosch thing was a bit stupid. Making a deal with a repair company across multiple countries, that is a franchise business, with different laws and agreements in different countries.
I have dealt with 3 different dealers because I moved during the process.

• SLRV on the Gold Coast were my ordering dealer and were really great to deal with.
• Ignition HQ in Brisbane was my delivery dealer and have also been great to work with.
• Ineos Sunshine Coast did the service and some warranty work. They are a normal multi franchise dealer and initially they were a bit ordinary but have been fantastic of late. My Grenadier is booked in there for 2 days 30th & 31st of October for some campaign work and they have booked a replacement Grenadier loan car for me. They probably had the biggest learning curve from being a standard car dealer to Ineos Automotive company and customer types.
• All dealers seem to carry a lot of spares.

If a dealer charges you to clear the service code that is a problem with that dealer and the customer. Not good customer service.

The Ineos tracking is stupid but the dealer was able to give me all the info needed to track it on the ship etc.

 

[Reducs]

Also assume there is a way to determine the build date off your vin #

The driver's side door jamb sticker has the build month/year: