What would you say if you could ?

[CountyV8]

I'll say again less bongs or at least stop them and the Manual.

Hi Année

 

[svmaven]

I'd ask when he plans to release all documentation needed to keep the IG running for 50 years with no factory support. Service manuals, supplier part numbers, CANBus protocols, ECU maps, whatever.

Starting a car company is a cool idea but the success rate for automotive startups is low. Lot of us took a chance and we'd just like to know we won't have a big paperweight in the garage or a 95% haircut selling an orphaned, unsupportable vehicle.

 

[Bruce B]

As I do not yet own a Grenadier I feel that any comments I might make would be meaningless. I do have one on order though and I have driven about 300 miles in one so, maybe I will share just this thought.
If you begin to compile a list of the “recommendations” found in this and other posts on this subject, you begin seeing a trend. That trend is toward a slightly more complex, slightly more feature rich, slightly more sophisticated vehicle. Cup holders, sunglasses storage, better back up cameras, adjustable lumbar support, more refined steering, deeper user integration in vehicle software etc all takes you down the path that virtually every other single automotive entity has followed to get to the vehicles we have to choose from in the market today. All except for Ineos with the Grenadier that is…
Forgive me if I smile at some of the suggestions and wonder to myself if perhaps some of the people making them might not be happier with the new Land Rover Defender rather than the Grenadier… Before anyone gets upset, I say this with the utmost of respect for anyone who has put their money down to own this incredibly cool vehicle!
To put it in a different light, it is in fact the crudeness of the Ineos that so endeared the design to me. Yes, I will be annoyed about something when mine is finally here. On the other hand the pureness of the design is something that I haven’t seen in a new vehicle in many, many years. This is a beautiful and incredibly unusual offering that I don’t expect I will see again in my lifetime. I will embrace the purity of the design, blemishes and all and I will consider myself fortunate to have been able to participate at this moment in time.
I would simply say to Sir James Arthur Ratcliffe, “thank you Sir!”

 

[Zimm]

That trend is toward a slightly more complex, slightly more feature rich, slightly more sophisticated vehicle. Cup holders, sunglasses storage, better back up cameras, adjustable lumbar support, more refined steering, deeper user integration in vehicle software etc all takes you down the path that virtually every other single automotive entity has followed to get to the vehicles we have to choose from in the market today.

There's already a backup camera.
lumbar support can be a manual crank and is in base cars.
Steering has had return to center on live axles for 120 years.
The computer exists.
Sun-glass cubbies and cupholders are technology?

If you peal back the control panel, you have a printed circuit boards and switches, like every other new car. There's no linkage from the throttle to a cam. It's all electronic anyway. We haven't been spared any of the foibles of modern electronic cars.

If this was a truck built like a base truck in 1985, you would have a point, but it's got sensors and crash systems as it is. What we have in these areas of complain is poor execution, not simplicity. .

 

[Offroad]

I think many of the issues are to be expected from a new manufacturer, new vehicle, new dealer network, etc. That said, I think a big part of the disconnect is the the lack of communication from Ineos, in general. I really think they have failed the dealerships and us, the customers. In terms of the previous post from BruceB, I think we all really wanted less tech, not more but the larger issue is we want it to work. If you are close to a dealership, and they can actual solve a problem thats one thing but if you are hours away and have these nagging issues, thats a completely different deal.

We are coming up on 1 year since the launch date in the USA. Are things better, worse or the same from a customer service perspective?

 

[Zimm]

I think many of the issues are to be expected from a new manufacturer, new vehicle, new dealer network, etc. That said, I think a big part of the disconnect is the the lack of communication from Ineos, in general. I really think they have failed the dealerships and us, the customers. In terms of the previous post from BruceB, I think we all really wanted less tech, not more but the larger issue is we want it to work. If you are close to a dealership, and they can actual solve a problem thats one thing but if you are hours away and have these nagging issues, thats a completely different deal.

We are coming up on 1 year since the launch date in the USA. Are things better, worse or the same from a customer service perspective?

I don't think 1 year is enough time to say if it's better or worse. At least let year 1 cars be out for a while and actually need service.

As to the opening sentence, it is an existing car plant with trained personnel, engineered by people that designed the Gwagon and other vehicles, using suppliers that already make car parts, with a 10 old engine and transmission that's been sold in the millions, and every car dealer they chose has been selling cars for decades. THE WHOLE POINT of the process was that it utilized experienced suppliers, designers, manufacturing and sales. Nothing is new but the model. It wasn't supposed to have beta test issues. The only part that was supposed to be new, was the approach to service, and that never happened. Why do people keep making excuses for QA/QC? I really like my car, but similar to my rescue dog, as much as I like it, it's got baked in issues that I just gotta deal with.

 

[Offroad]

I don't think 1 year is enough time to say if it's better or worse. At least let year 1 cars be out for a while and actually need service.

As to the opening sentence, it is an existing car plant with trained personnel, engineered by people that designed the Gwagon and other vehicles, using suppliers that already make car parts, with a 10 old engine and transmission that's been sold in the millions, and every car dealer they chose has been selling cars for decades. THE WHOLE POINT of the process was that it utilized experienced suppliers, designers, manufacturing and sales. Nothing is new but the model. It wasn't supposed to have beta test issues. The only part that was supposed to be new, was the approach to service, and that never happened. Why do people keep making excuses for QA/QC? I really like my car, but similar to my rescue dog, as much as I like it, it's got baked in issues that I just gotta deal with.

I don't disagree with your perspective 'but' I would say the customer service is the same, which means bad. And as more vehicles get delivered it escalates fast.

 

[Bayford]

As I do not yet own a Grenadier I feel that any comments I might make would be meaningless. I do have one on order though and I have driven about 300 miles in one so, maybe I will share just this thought.
If you begin to compile a list of the “recommendations” found in this and other posts on this subject, you begin seeing a trend. That trend is toward a slightly more complex, slightly more feature rich, slightly more sophisticated vehicle. Cup holders, sunglasses storage, better back up cameras, adjustable lumbar support, more refined steering, deeper user integration in vehicle software etc all takes you down the path that virtually every other single automotive entity has followed to get to the vehicles we have to choose from in the market today. All except for Ineos with the Grenadier that is…
Forgive me if I smile at some of the suggestions and wonder to myself if perhaps some of the people making them might not be happier with the new Land Rover Defender rather than the Grenadier… Before anyone gets upset, I say this with the utmost of respect for anyone who has put their money down to own this incredibly cool vehicle!
To put it in a different light, it is in fact the crudeness of the Ineos that so endeared the design to me. Yes, I will be annoyed about something when mine is finally here. On the other hand the pureness of the design is something that I haven’t seen in a new vehicle in many, many years. This is a beautiful and incredibly unusual offering that I don’t expect I will see again in my lifetime. I will embrace the purity of the design, blemishes and all and I will consider myself fortunate to have been able to participate at this moment in time.
I would simply say to Sir James Arthur Ratcliffe, “thank you sir!”

Thank you Bruce for a slightly different perspective. I think you are onto something here.
The car has numerous foibles and irritations but then so does everything that I like. I know that we Brits are tarred with the traditionalist brush whilst the Americans are great adopters of the new but there are many cars and boats where "improved" models loose the soul that made the original great. The Jaguar XK120 was fantastic, the XK140 a slightly better drive but not as pretty or as much fun, and then the XK150 which was the fastest and most comfortable but also fat, ugly, and without character or appeal in my view. The original Bruce King designed Hinckley Jet boats are as beautiful as a motor boat can be - slim, elegant and not a straight line on them. Post about 2014 variants are the result of asking owners what improvements they would like to see - a bit more room here, another appliance there, etc etc - the result is a beautifully made and finished boat with middle aged spread that lacks the soul of the original. I hope the same doesn't happen to the Grenadier - sometimes less is more.

That said I would like a workshop manual for it.

 

[Annee Grenadier_girl]

Thank you all for your input, I’ll be going through all replies and cutting and pasting them, I have been unsuccessful in getting SJR’s personal email but have been given his PA’s so will direct them to her in the next week.

Do keep the questions coming.

Annee

 

[Skydance]

My sympathy to the person on Facebook who said that Ineos/dealer told them that the infotainment system is not backward compatible 2023 and therefore doesn’t have the larger maps and large reverse camera picture.

I know it’s probably different hardware but to be honest I was also under the impression that software could be just updated to have this new functionality. I mean I have new iPhone software on my old iPhone 12.

Lesson learned twice now for me. Don’t be an early adopter!!! Be a late adopter. I bought one of the last X5 and last Range Rover sports and guess what they were perfect.

I would ask Jim Ratcliffe why he signed off a screen so small for maps and reverse cameras when the Ineos is a big 4x4 with a big screen. Why!!!

Just joking, if they turned around and said they can’t turn off all the silly beeps on the US models (they promised) until the 25 models and it’s not backward compatible then folks will be up in arms

 

[255/85]

Dear Mr('s) Ratcliffe,

Please don't screw me.

I am a small man of little consequence.
The doings of the mighty are beyond my ken.
I've worked long and hard to be able to purchase your car.
I take some pride in the ownership thereof.

I don't live in the big city.
I will rarely (if ever) be near an Ineos dealer.
I need a service manual.
Nothing fancy - just torque specs and assembly/disassembly order.
I don't even need pictures.
I don't need to know how to rebuild the BMW engine.
I don't need to know how to rebuild the ZF transmission.
But I do need to know how to repair everything else
from transfer box to tires.
A service manual will save your company money
on warranty work.

Someday I'd like to buy a second car from you.
Please don't screw me.

Regards,
Some Bloke.

 

[Annee Grenadier_girl]

Dear Mr('s) Ratcliffe,

Please don't screw me.

I am a small man of little consequence.
The doings of the mighty are beyond my ken.
I've worked long and hard to be able to purchase your car.
I take some pride in the ownership thereof.

I don't live in the big city.
I will rarely (if ever) be near an Ineos dealer.
I need a service manual.
Nothing fancy - just torque specs and assembly/disassembly order.
I don't even need pictures.
I don't need to know how to rebuild the BMW engine.
I don't need to know how to rebuild the ZF transmission.
But I do need to know how to repair everything else
from transfer box to tires.
A service manual will save your company money
on warranty work.

Someday I'd like to buy a second car from you.
Please don't screw me.

Regards,
Some Bloke.

Very good indeed.

 

[Jeremy996]

I want a manual I can use offline; software rental is not a solution as a live Internet link are not a given even in rural Leicestershire, let alone in the wilds around the World. DVD, BluRay or indexed PDF tied to my VIN and model year would do nicely. Failing that, an old fashioned printed manual in hardback.
I will have this vehicle for the long haul and dealers will lose interest as soon as a new model/incompatible firmware is released. I can hang on to the end of the warranty, if I have to, but my understanding of consumer protection is that if something was promised, the manufacturer is on the hook to deliver. Business to Business, (B2B), is not the same as a retail environment, (and in the UK, as dealer are agents, both will be liable for non-performance).

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Thank you Bruce for a slightly different perspective. I think you are onto something here.
The car has numerous foibles and irritations but then so does everything that I like. I know that we Brits are tarred with the traditionalist brush whilst the Americans are great adopters of the new but there are many cars and boats where "improved" models loose the soul that made the original great. The Jaguar XK120 was fantastic, the XK140 a slightly better drive but not as pretty or as much fun, and then the XK150 which was the fastest and most comfortable but also fat, ugly, and without character or appeal in my view. The original Bruce King designed Hinckley Jet boats are as beautiful as a motor boat can be - slim, elegant and not a straight line on them. Post about 2014 variants are the result of asking owners what improvements they would like to see - a bit more room here, another appliance there, etc etc - the result is a beautifully made and finished boat with middle aged spread that lacks the soul of the original. I hope the same doesn't happen to the Grenadier - sometimes less is more.

That said I would like a workshop manual for it.

I’m inclined to agree with this. Take the whole screen size question. Half the owners here (at LEAST) are going to end up with Garmin Treads or a tablet mount. If it’s just about the backup camera - well, that’s a concern about the Grenadier when it’s being its least “Grenadierery” - not about its core soul or function. Nice? Sure. A problem? Not really. For me, the service manual and service network are key. Those are the things that were PROMISED that mitigated risk/hastle. Would also love it if we could get a solution on the lift/drive shaft issue. They wouldn’t even have to change the core design on this - at least not at first. They could go the Toyota TRD route and sell a fully certified lift kit, including a new drive shaft. An expensive kit but whatever. ADAS bings/bongs minor annoyance but “whatevs” as the youths say. I suppose if I had the production quality issues others have experienced, I would be more worked up, but this is the adventure vehicle I wanted for years and thought nobody would have the guts to build. I thought the only alternative was a Defender restomod - which would be no end of headaches and service/parts/quirks would DEFINITELY be an issue - a labor of love. So with that considered, this experience has just been a load of giggles, and whatever improvements they make, I hope it is just focused on reliability and staying true to what it is - not turning it into what it was never intended to be.

 

[Rok_Dr]

Thank you all for your input, I’ll be going through all replies and cutting and pasting them, I have been unsuccessful in getting SJR’s personal email but have been given his PA’s so will direct them to her in the next week.

Do keep the questions coming.

Annee

Thank you Annee for posting.

I'm a little late to the party but if I was able to have a one on one with Sir Jim I would say the following most of which have already been said to Justin and Paul at Ineos Australia:

• Congratulations on having the vision and resources to create a defender for the 21st century.
• The engineers and designers have to be congratulated as well. Its fundamentally a great vehicle and its design is fit for purpose, despite the to be expected teething issues and a couple of ergonomic bloopers for RHD vehicles.
• BUT.........
• When it comes to support and actioning the promises/commitments made, Ineos is failing and for those living and working in remote areas this is making the vehicle not fit for purpose and a risky purchasing decision. For example:
  • Only 5 service agents to cover the majority of Australia and the diagnostic information is not available to Independent mechanics or even Bosch agents who were supposed to be able to have access.
  • Simple things like resetting the service indicator and tyre sensors after a wheel rotation can only be done by a dealer, meaning a multi day drive of >1000km if you live in the centre of Australia or the NW of WA. Pic below shows the magnitude of the problem. If you aren't on the east coast you are out of luck. Providing mechanics and owners in these remote areas with the tools to work on the grenadier is essential.
  • The quality of technical documentation currently available to owners is not great. For example the user manuals lack a lot of basic information which would normally be expected to be included and in parts are poorly written and give contradictory advice.
  • After almost 2 years of vehicle production a workshop manual is still not available. Like @255/85 a good basic workshop manual will suffice along with a diagnostic tool that has the ability to read INEOS specific codes. Pulling apart a transmission or engine is beyond my skills.
  • Support from agents and Ineos online is still hit and miss. Providing an online knowledge base that can be a accessed by owners would be a great idea.

Enough for now.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Annee Grenadier_girl]

So this is my first letter, obviously I couldn't cover everything but thought id get the ball rolling.


Dear ...

I have been given your email in regards to wanting Sir Jim Ratcliffe to see my email and hope this could be passed on with thanks.

Dear Sir Jim Ratcliffe,

I hope this email finds you well.

First of all, I would like to extend my congratulations on the Ineos Grenadier - it is an exceptional vehicle that many of us are truly passionate about, The rugged design, engineering integrity, and functionality pf the Grenadier have garnered admiration from off-road enthusiasts and vehicle lovers alike, myself included (Trialmaster delivered From Portsmouth April 23 and 30,000 miles already).

However, while there is a great deal of positive feedback from the community, there are some ongoing concerns that have come to my attention, which I feel compelled to share. The concerns are many but primarily centred around a few key areas:

1. Service Manual Availability:

Many owners have expressed difficulty in accessing detailed service manuals, which are crucial for those who prefer to perform their own maintenance, want a better understanding of their vehicles inner workings or simply live a few hundred miles from their nearest Ineos service centre.

2. Customer Service Response Times, Raising tickets etc:

Several owners have reported that the customer service experience has been far from ideal, with slow or even no response times and unresolved queries causing huge frustration, Currently, it appears that service managers are unable to order parts etc when they are needed. Instead, they are required to go through Ineos by raising a ticket, which results in delays as they wait for a response-sometimes for days or even weeks. These delays in obtaining essential parts can and have lead to frustration for both service departments and customers who are relying timely repairs and maintenance.

This indirect process, while it may have its rationale, is causing unnecessary downtime for the vehicles, negatively impacting customer satisfaction and the overall ownership experience. Allowing service managers to have more direct access to ordering parts or streamlining the ticketing process to ensure quicker responses, could resolve the issue and prevent prolonged delays.

3. Delivery Delays:

There have also been instances where parts, accessories or even the vehicle itself have not arrived on schedule, leading to a sense of disappointment among buyers.

The Grenadier has the potential to build a loyal and enthusiastic customer base, but addressing not only these issues pointed out here but many more online is crucial to maintaining that positive momentum.
I have spoken with a number of owners and gathered some of their specific questions and concerns, which they would love the opportunity to raise with you directly. I would be happy to share this feedback with your team if it could be of assistance in improving these areas.

Additionally, we would appreciate the opportunity to meet with yourself or any of your directors, so we can communicate these concerns and suggestions in person. This would provide us with the chance to address the issues in a more direct and constructive manner.

Thank you for your time and consideration, and again, Congratulations on what is a remarkable achievement with the Grenadier. I look forward to seeing how INEOS continues to evolve this vehicle and its customer experience in the future.

Kind regards

Annee Blue-Sky